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Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/19/2013 9:15:05 PM   
BigDuke66


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The problem I reported for v4.4.262 is still there:
To sum it up:
There is a delay between the former task of an order and the following defend task, a simple example is a defend order that has a move task which is followed by a defend task.
The move task is reported complete but the following defend task usually starts much much later, In my test scenario(Elsborn Ridge) sometimes 30-40 minutes but also up to around 90 minutes.
And that can happen in every order that has a defend task like secure/deny crossing, delay, withdraw, etc., I think even orders that are completed and where the units switch to defend because no other order is given show this behavior.

Anyone can test that himself, just try Elsborn Ridge and give one of the German bat a defend task nearby. You will see that it starts to move to position till move task is reported complete, still not all units are in position and the defend task for the closer and the move task for the units further away start with a big delay(as said 30 minutes up to 90 minutes).

Reminds of the attack problem that also add a delay in that shouldn't have been there because there was simply a gap between the task done and the start of the next task.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/19/2013 11:25:10 PM   
navwarcol

 

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I think per the rules that all move orders become defend tasks upon the move's completion, negating the need for separate defend orders to follow. Or am I reading too much into your topic (this is also quite possible, sorry if so)

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/19/2013 11:36:33 PM   
navwarcol

 

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Disregard my above, I think I get what you are saying. I have seen this often and just assumed it is part of the orders delay. I can live with it, but if it is a bug, yes, it would be nice to fix!

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/19/2013 11:44:55 PM   
BigDuke66


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Order delay is just the delay between giving an order and the start of processing this order by the designated units.
Within the process of fulfilling this order there shouldn't be any delay, at least none that is so large and that can't be explained away with any real life behavior of combat units.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/19/2013 11:45:45 PM   
wodin


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Isn't this time supposed to be your troops getting themselves into position etc etc..?

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/20/2013 12:02:35 AM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

The problem I reported for v4.4.262 is still there:
To sum it up:
There is a delay between the former task of an order and the following defend task, a simple example is a defend order that has a move task which is followed by a defend task.
The move task is reported complete but the following defend task usually starts much much later, In my test scenario(Elsborn Ridge) sometimes 30-40 minutes but also up to around 90 minutes.
And that can happen in every order that has a defend task like secure/deny crossing, delay, withdraw, etc., I think even orders that are completed and where the units switch to defend because no other order is given show this behavior.

Anyone can test that himself, just try Elsborn Ridge and give one of the German bat a defend task nearby. You will see that it starts to move to position till move task is reported complete, still not all units are in position and the defend task for the closer and the move task for the units further away start with a big delay(as said 30 minutes up to 90 minutes).

Reminds of the attack problem that also add a delay in that shouldn't have been there because there was simply a gap between the task done and the start of the next task.


In order to defend, it takes time for the troops which are in a line formation following a move order, to get into their most effective defensive positions.

Yes, they can "defend" when they stop.

But, it takes time to disperse into effective defensive positions which take into account line of fire and cover to assure that the defense is effective.

You might check into the various defense formations (dug-in; entrenched; fortified).

Each has a time period before it becomes effective.

Likewise, from ending movement in a column with lead echelon of four soldiers facing a potential location of an attack to dispersing to a line formation where cross fires can defeat that attack more effectively by expanding the front to face that attack takes time, which varies depending on the type of terrain that has to be traversed by units and individuals to get into the appropriate defense formation.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM7-5.pdf

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM17-10.PDF

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/FM100-5/index.html

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/20/2013 11:02:53 AM   
BigDuke66


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@wodin
No this isn't time to get into position, because they simply don't get into position as even the most forward units still have to make there final move to get to their defensive position.
The really effects of taking time to form a defensive position are the various states of entrenchment(dug-in, entrenched, fortified) a unit can have if being long enough in a position.

@jimcarravallah
True and if we would speak about a reorg task that comes AFTER the units are in position I would find that perfectly plausible and highly realistic but we speak of units that simply stop doing what they should because the move task is reported as complete and the next task doesn't start before a considerably time went by, we simply have a gap in the orders that simply should follow one after another and not with a large pause in between.
As said neither the most forward nor the units still far back have reach their final positions so none should make anything at all except move on to the area where they should form a defense position.
As also said that is close to the thing we saw on attack moves some patches back, they simply stopped doing what they should be doing, and if it wasn't plausible at that time it isn't plausible now.
Especially as orders that don't involve a defend task don't have this delay.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 7/20/2013 11:04:27 AM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/20/2013 11:24:01 AM   
BigDuke66


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I have now compared the situation to an attack order and here we see that when the move task is reported as complete there is a minor delay of some minutes before another move task starts that is again followed by a reorg task on the final position for the attack.
Good here you can argue also that it looks strange to first have a move task that is superseded by another move task but in the end the overall movement, pace and start/finish of the attack looks quit plausible to me.

So and on an order that has a defend task the second move task doesn't start before much time went by, in my test 80 minutes and that simply can't be correct.

Just try it yourself, take Elsborn Ridge, use one of the German bat. and give it a defend order 2-3 kilometers ahead, check when they finally get into position, now start again and do the same again but this time give an attack order on the same position you used for the defend order, I bet the whole attack is solved long before the unit reach the defensive positions, at least now anyone should see that here something is deeply wrong.
Or is it normal to have an attack on an objective finished long before simply driving up, loading off and taking up defensive positions at the same objective?
Not on any planet I know...

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 7/20/2013 11:27:20 AM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/29/2013 10:51:30 PM   
BigDuke66


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*cough cough*

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/30/2013 4:31:58 AM   
navwarcol

 

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I was going to bump this also BigDuke. But from another thread I read that Dave's daughter is in the hospital I believe, so I am sure this has been noticed. I was surprised it was not part of the patch that was released though.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/30/2013 3:59:56 PM   
BigDuke66


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I thought the Dave's daughter was already on the road to recovery.
Of course if that is still on the table I don't mind that priorities are different, my were too.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/31/2013 5:40:28 AM   
Arjuna


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No she is back in hospital again. On top of that I have been without internet for the last five days due to a failed set top box. Just got it fixed today.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 7/31/2013 8:51:30 PM   
BigDuke66


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Sorry to hear that Dave, I hope she gets well again.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 8/3/2013 8:19:23 PM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/2/2013 10:34:24 PM   
dazkaz15


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When you give a defend order it seems to be split into two tasks now. This was introduced quite a while back, and as I usually keep my command capacity low I don’t notice it to much, and was not sure if it was by design or not.
In the scenario I have been playing, I have very long command delay now, as I am taking advantage of the no orders delay for the arriving para drops, and have a lot of units moving individually into positions.

So for a defend order now, I have a command delay of say 2 hours (I’m fine with that as I have overloaded the boss), then when the unit gets near the defend position it stops, and another full command delay is introduced for the final short leg (about 200 meters) of its defend task.

So for a defend task to complete I have a 4 hour command delay.
There is only one command delay for a move order, so I have been using this as a work around, by moving to the defend position then placing a defend order with facing etc on the counter, once it gets there, but it requires more, unnecessary, user interaction this way.


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 12:28:52 AM   
Arjuna


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Am I right in assuming that you have given the Defend order ata distant location and that the force must do a Move to that location before defending. If so there should not be a significant delay transtioning between the end of the Move and the start of the Defend. Do you have a save taken just before the end of the Move?

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 1:21:06 AM   
dazkaz15


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I can re-produce it very easily, as it happens on every defend order. The longer the command delay the longer the pause after the initial move.
I also think this has something to do with the unit not moving if given a short distance defend order.

It appears that if you place the defend order, within the radius of the counter, that it would have paused before processing its defend order after the move, then it will not move at all. Even after a command delay.

For moves shorter than about 300-500m its always best to use a move order to be 100% sure it will work.
If you give it a defend order within this distance, it usually does nothing.

Its very late here now, so I'll sort out a save for the tomorrow night.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 7:55:29 AM   
Arjuna


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If you issue a Defend order and the force is already deployed within the perimeter then there is a very good chance it will stay put and take advantage of its current deployed state. The probability is increased if the force is dug in or entrenched. The Ai will search through the force and separate out any units that meet these conditions. It will then issue them with a Defend inSitu order and issue a normal Defend to the rest of the force.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 2:17:56 PM   
BigDuke66


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Well I point to my starting post and my other postings in this theead and to the feedback of the former patch, it is this way at least since May and I don't think anything I saw is "normal" at all.
Simple and straight:
1. Defend order issued
2. Units move too position
3. Close to position move task is reported finished
4. They sit around and wait, wait, wait, wait...
5 A final move of the units into position

Test this simply by yourself:
Load Elsborn Ridge and give one of the German bat a defend task nearby. You will see that it starts to move to position till move task is reported complete, still not all units are in position and the defend task for the closer and the move task for the units further away start with a big delay(30 minutes up to 90 minutes).

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 9/3/2013 2:18:26 PM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 3:54:16 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Well I point to my starting post and my other postings in this theead and to the feedback of the former patch, it is this way at least since May and I don't think anything I saw is "normal" at all.
Simple and straight:
1. Defend order issued
2. Units move too position
3. Close to position move task is reported finished
4. They sit around and wait, wait, wait, wait...
5 A final move of the units into position

Test this simply by yourself:
Load Elsborn Ridge and give one of the German bat a defend task nearby. You will see that it starts to move to position till move task is reported complete, still not all units are in position and the defend task for the closer and the move task for the units further away start with a big delay(30 minutes up to 90 minutes).


Since player preferences affect how the game performs AI tasks, you'll get a more definitive answer to the problem if you send the autosave from the game between the time you issued the order and when the odd behavior was noted (if one or more exists, send the autosave closest to the time the odd behavior starts) or, as an alternative, run the scenario to some point after you issue the order and do your own save before the problem occurs.


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 4:22:54 PM   
BigDuke66


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Well I send a bunch of saves to panthergames(contact@panthergames.com), I saved after every step:
1. After giving the order
2. After AI sets moves for order
3. After AI move task finished
4. After new task is set by AI
5. AI fully reached ordered position

After I first ordered the task a did not change anything except set speed to max, but also slower speeds didn't change anything.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 9/3/2013 4:25:59 PM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/3/2013 11:30:08 PM   
dazkaz15


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DefendDelay




Attachment (1)

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/4/2013 12:28:13 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

If you issue a Defend order and the force is already deployed within the perimeter then there is a very good chance it will stay put and take advantage of its current deployed state. The probability is increased if the force is dug in or entrenched. The Ai will search through the force and separate out any units that meet these conditions. It will then issue them with a Defend inSitu order and issue a normal Defend to the rest of the force.


Thanks Dave.

Its always good to read stuff that is gong on under the hood, that we are not aware of.
That makes perfect sense, even if it is a bit inconvenient if you want to adjust their position to better cover an approach or to move them into a cluster of buildings or something.
As I have said though, we can always use a move order to do that, so no biggie.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/4/2013 4:03:46 AM   
BigDuke66


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Seems like dazkaz15 and my postings have the same target, I didn't check if really a second command delay is applied to the units, anyhow it is new that "This was introduced quite a while back", can't remember seeing such behavior in much earlier versions but I mentioned that problem already in the Feedback Thread for 262 in early may:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3321957
As said already there any order that involves a move task followed by a defend task as a huge delay between them where the units are simply "stuck in motion" as neither the very first nor the last units have reached their final positions, that makes simply no sense as task follows on task and the simple switch to a different task should lead to any delay at least not any big delay.

BTW we and such a delay thing with attack orders that one was killed any one of the earlier versions, just in case this might be a similar problem.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 9/4/2013 4:05:00 AM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/12/2013 5:09:43 PM   
BigDuke66


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So anything found meanwhile?

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 9/21/2013 9:40:46 PM   
wodin


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It's obviously adding the delay all over again for the defend par of the task. Obviously they would have been given their instructions before they set off..where as the game is working that they were told to move which they did then they waited for the command to defend to come along..obviously needs fixing. Becomes alot more obvious with a HQ who is over taxed so the delay is already long.

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/21/2013 9:41:36 PM >


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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 11/6/2013 11:32:25 PM   
Arjuna


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I have just fixed this issue. What was occurring was that when you issued an order like a Defend where the force was not at the objective location, the initial plan developed would first conduct a Move to the location. What should have happened when the force got to the obj loc was that it should have immediately conducted a defend task. However, it was in fact incurring a standard orders delay before starting the defend task.

I checked the code and found that while I was passing a NoOrdersDelay flag into the DevelopMissionPlan() and the DetermineMissionTask() I was not doing so for the DerivePlanTask(). The latter function creates the actual planTask that the force conducts. I have ensured that this flag is now passed down and a quick test shows that it all works as originally intended. Thanks for reporting this bug.

FIXED.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 11/7/2013 7:10:12 AM   
BigDuke66


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Ah very good, Thanks!!!
Hopefully we see another beta soon.

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RE: Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.264 - 11/7/2013 11:06:35 AM   
Arjuna


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Soon but there are a few more items to address first.

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