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RE: India again??...why always me?!!?

 
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RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 9:08:15 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

:-) Well, yes, i'd be happy if i could speak like a 5 years old american, english or australian child :-)

Guys... June 17.... Bombay is abbandoned! The siege is left! 200,000 japanese are moving back to Poona!!!! GOD!

Tomorrow we'll be Landing at Tarawa...

Ha he really abbandoned the idea of taking Bombay? Now that the forts are down to zero!?!?!? Is it a trap?!!?!?!?


no, it just took him several attacks to realize what ppl have been saying here for a repeated time, you can't take an urban heavy hex the way he tried. No chance, never. You don't need forts at all in an urban heavy hex and the enemy will still fail against 2000+ enemy av.

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RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 4:30:23 PM   
GreyJoy


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June 26, 1942

Yes, the IJA is abandoning India. Even the KB is moving back and the whole IJA Army is loading at Madras. My subs are sent there to try to get some lucky shot, but no joy for now. However the KB is spotted near the Adamans... time for Aden to release its forces... 300 ships are moving 35,000 men and some 150 planes to Karachi right now, covered by the Z Force and 3 American CVs.
The British CVs and the rest of the RN are waiting at Cape Town... 200 ships are loading here the 27th US Division, an Indipendent US Regiment, some Base forces and Engineers, along with 8 American BG groups.
While the IJA is retreating towards Madras, the British forces are already retaking back most of the territories lost. Poona, Surat and the cities around Dehli are conquered back without a fight...no damage to the infrastructures... Don't think the japs gained much HI-Fuel or resources in this adventure...


The Kongo is spotted near Kwajalein... but all my transports have already fled the area, while the CV Wasp has rejoined the YorkTown and the Hornet and are covering the retreat of my amphib forces.

Now my CVs will need to get their June/July upgrades...so I guess we'll be a bit slow for the next month...

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Post #: 122
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 4:31:59 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

:-) Well, yes, i'd be happy if i could speak like a 5 years old american, english or australian child :-)

Guys... June 17.... Bombay is abbandoned! The siege is left! 200,000 japanese are moving back to Poona!!!! GOD!

Tomorrow we'll be Landing at Tarawa...

Ha he really abbandoned the idea of taking Bombay? Now that the forts are down to zero!?!?!? Is it a trap?!!?!?!?


no, it just took him several attacks to realize what ppl have been saying here for a repeated time, you can't take an urban heavy hex the way he tried. No chance, never. You don't need forts at all in an urban heavy hex and the enemy will still fail against 2000+ enemy av.



Yes, think the key was to distribute my forces in a good way before the invasion really reached Bombay.
I had 2500 AVs at Bombay and 1800 at Calcutta, both behind 6 forts in HU hex. Karachi, with the emergency reinforcements, reached 2500 AVs easily.... simply too much for the IJA, especially with SLs

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Post #: 123
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 10:32:01 PM   
GreyJoy


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29th June 1942

The japanese army continues to abbandon India. Think he's redeploying all his divisions to the key areas... he must prepare his defences and he's already late on the scheldue IMHO.

In China it's confirmed that he's trying to outflank my Sian defences on the North. Hope to get there before him.

Now my Indian/british units are re-occupying the key areas of India, re-uniting the Calcutta area with Dehli and Karachi.

The Aden reinforcements are now on their way to Karachi, while the KB must have arrived to Singapore by now.

Some 36 Betties bombed Tarawa with no gain...

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Post #: 124
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 10:39:15 PM   
Schlemiel

 

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Wow, what a serious setback for him. He failed to capture Kolkata and lost a lot of troops at Mumbai. Not to mention he released the emergency reinforcements and has had little time to prep his lines in Myanmar. For his troubles, he got, what, a couple months production out of Ledo and maybe a little bit at Chennai? He burned more fuel on the KB during this time frame than he gained, I would bet, and caused a great deal of attrition to himself.

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Post #: 125
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 10:46:32 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlemiel

Wow, what a serious setback for him. He failed to capture Kolkata and lost a lot of troops at Mumbai. Not to mention he released the emergency reinforcements and has had little time to prep his lines in Myanmar. For his troubles, he got, what, a couple months production out of Ledo and maybe a little bit at Chennai? He burned more fuel on the KB during this time frame than he gained, I would bet, and caused a great deal of attrition to himself.



Ok...ok... now please reform the Whole post using the REAL colonial names! :-)

Yes, it's been a setback for him. The couple of months of production Worth nothing... he has burnt much more HIs in terms of destroyed squads during the siege of Bombay and possibly much more supplies than he gained during his conquests. The KB has been out of position and had to run up and down from Truk to Scoodra...which means at least 100k fuel!
Now i have a Whole Indian Corp (the Emergency reinforcements) ready to be moved to Burma border and my navy is in a perfect shape, while he lost 1 CV, 2 CVEs, 1 BB and two major ships badly damaged (1CV and the Yamato).... moreover i have estabilished a strong foothold in the Marshalls (Tarawa-Tabiutea) and flanked his positions at Suva (Pago Pago and Noumea), with Cocos Island and Horn Island that are already torns in his flanks...

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Post #: 126
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 10:51:31 PM   
GreyJoy


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Imho, despite what people think, the best strategy for Japan remains not to overextend and to abbandon those sexy ideas of getting India, Oz or the Whole pacific... the soon you start to fortify, the better will be in 1943-1944.

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Post #: 127
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 11:28:20 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Imho, despite what people think, the best strategy for Japan remains not to overextend and to abbandon those sexy ideas of getting India, Oz or the Whole pacific... the soon you start to fortify, the better will be in 1943-1944.



I think I agree. We'll see if my experience holds up, once I get there in my own PBEM. But looking at my available forces and the map, it just seems so much smarter to take what I can and fortify the everloving **** out of it. Sure, all of it will fall to the US juggernaut given enough time, but those last two words are the key.

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Post #: 128
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 11:37:06 PM   
Schlemiel

 

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I think it depends a little bit on the conditions on the ground. If lots of fuel flows into Calcutta and you can take it on the relatively cheap, it's worth the limited campaign (helps kill supply to China for the critical period too). That said, easier said than done, and fortifying burns a lot less and can limit the allies ability to cause attrition early.

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Post #: 129
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 11:44:11 PM   
Cribtop


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GJ, given this experience, would you say that India is functionally unconquerable with stacking limits?

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Post #: 130
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/15/2013 11:56:23 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

GJ, given this experience, would you say that India is functionally unconquerable with stacking limits?



I think so. Maybe if you conquer Singa VERY early and skip completely the Southern DEI and the Pacific, you may have a chance.
But i think you need to:
1) Conquer immediately Diego, attu and Cylon.
2) force the allies to divide themself between Calcutta, Bombay and Karachi and then decide which is the more voulnerable between Bombay and Calcutta.
3) Isolate Bombay or Calcutta, place a couple of divisions there to lay the siege and then move the KB and the rest of your divisions to conquer Scoodra, Masyrah and Karachi (by sea). Once the route is REALLY closed, then you may have a chance to win by exaustion...

however this means leaving the rest of the map open... which may mean you can see 3 american divisions Landing in the Mariannas in april 1942...not pretty!

What i've learnt is that with SL is even more difficult to conquer a huge thing like India... probably, as Radar and QBall have stated, Oz is a much more easier target

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Post #: 131
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 10:53:34 AM   
njp72

 

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My 2 cents worth, it can still be done

1. Go straight for DEI and conqueror it.
2. Largely ignore though isolate PI and Singas (no set battles).
3. Head straight to Ceylon via western Sumatra and obtain a port.
4. Get KB to blockade Karachi before the Aussies arrive.

Its tight but even against experienced allied players it can be done and there is not really a lot they can do- not initially anyway.

The real question is what does it achieve and how vulnerable does it leave you on other parts of the map whilst you maintain a 2 to 3 month blockade!

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Post #: 132
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 10:54:04 AM   
GreyJoy


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What's next now?

Well, I now need to make him pay for its Indian adventure. I need to follow Brad's path and create multiple vectors of advance. Need to assemble a northern Threat (creating an army which can threaten the Kuriles starting from March 1943), Central pacific Threat (from Tarawa -> north), a Southern Pacific one (from Noumea-Horn Island -> North East) and a DEI one (from Darwin).

For sure I will push very hard in Burma now. I know the dynamics of that theatre pretty well and I know how many units Japan needs to deploy there to halt an allied advance... and it's a LOT!


Will be fun...

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Post #: 133
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 11:05:57 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

My 2 cents worth, it can still be done

1. Go straight for DEI and conqueror it.
2. Largely ignore though isolate PI and Singas (no set battles).
3. Head straight to Ceylon via western Sumatra and obtain a port.
4. Get KB to blockade Karachi before the Aussies arrive.

Its tight but even against experienced allied players it can be done and there is not really a lot they can do- not initially anyway.

The real question is what does it achieve and how vulnerable does it leave you on other parts of the map whilst you maintain a 2 to 3 month blockade!



True, yes, but the problem remains: is the final goal of conquering India worth the possible lost of some key areas of the pacific? Hard to answer... but I do see the final goal of the Japanese strategy must be to survive as long as possible and I think the best way to do that is to be able to keep the historical perimeter as strong as possible... under this POV I think india isn't a profitable diversion... you'll need so many units to guard India, once conquered, that you'll be really too exposed to the allied counterattacks of 1943.
No matter how well you do in 1942, from 1943 you're gonna have shortage of good units to defend every key area. Your good divisions are limited

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Post #: 134
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 11:30:25 AM   
njp72

 

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Some very valid and good points.

I think the trick is not to stay. See it as a major spoiling attack to destroy valuable Commonwealth units and smash up Indian industry and conduct an orderly withdrawal back to more historic lines before pressure is applied. If you take Burma out of the equation for 12 months the breathing room would be/is immense.

Anyway, enough nonsense from me. Back to the game :-)

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Post #: 135
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 12:00:03 PM   
Q-Ball


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I had the same experience on India. Everything goes great until you get to Bombay. The problem, as castor alluded to, is that any heavy urban hex is impossible to take with stacking limits, unless the garrison is starving. And typically, the Allies should have 500,000+ supplies, as many as they want, in Bombay when the siege starts. And time is not on the IJA's side.

You opponent even took Socotra, which is a good move, but still fell way short, despite getting to Bombay in a pretty quick timeframe; it's probably impossible to get there in force much before the end of April, and he arrived in mid-May.

I think if you are playing stacking limits, against a good opponent, India is officially untakeable.

You can accomplish something on a limited basis however; it's still pretty easy to wipe out everyone on Ceylon, and even couple that with an invasion of NE India. But both have to be seen as more of a raid, with the objective of weakening the British Army, and/or cutting everyone off in Burma. In fact, the threat of the latter is probably enough already for most Allied players to basically abandon the Irriwaddy Plain. What a move on India would do, though, is secure the Burmese border.

But while the new stacking limits and other changes have made conquering India or Oz impossible, IMO, it makes it easier in China. This is why a new IJA strategy might be to clear the SRA, start digging, and commit extra resources in China. This is what Greyjoy did in his game vs. me, buying a bunch of tank units early for China, and keeping extra air and other units there for awhile. It's probably the way to go nowadays.

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Post #: 136
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 1:22:16 PM   
GreyJoy


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Welcome back Brad!

Well, i think in China, if the allies are aware of the SL rules, Japan won't have an easy life. Tanks can be rendered useless if you force them to fight on wooden terrains. Your only mistake has been to get lured in holding the central plains too long, thus allowing me to use the tanks there. If you fall back immediately, and start to fortify on the non-base wooden hexes, Japan will have the same problems the allies will then have in Burma... SL tends to favour the defender and the attacker has only one way to go: manouvre (if you can) or bring more firepower to the party.

Japan then gets a lot of benefits from SL when the allies have to land... you cannot simply bring 100k men everywhere cause they're gonna end up without supplies... I think SL favours both sides and give the chances for a better game in the long run

IMHO, however, to conquer China Japan needs to invest a lot in it...probably too much. During the 1942 campaign i sent there more than 800k supplies... and they are A LOT for Japanese nerfed economy, especially if the prize gained is a bunch of oilfields and some damaged HIs.... My goal was to conquer the Whole china...i failed and now you see how your chinese survived armies are giving me problems on the burma borders....

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RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 2:35:55 PM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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The 800 lb gorilla in the Pacific continues to be the USA. Dealing her a serious blow is hard to do. Some have tried the Aleutians and/or Hawaii route with minimal success. An invasion of India or Australia can set the war back for some time, but unless you are playing a version of Scenario 2 (DBB 30), it is hard to accomplish. Like GJ stated, it may be better to stay near historical expansion and become an effective counter puncher to make the reconquest very expensive for the Allies.

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Post #: 138
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 3:13:42 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

The 800 lb gorilla in the Pacific continues to be the USA. Dealing her a serious blow is hard to do. Some have tried the Aleutians and/or Hawaii route with minimal success. An invasion of India or Australia can set the war back for some time, but unless you are playing a version of Scenario 2 (DBB 30), it is hard to accomplish. Like GJ stated, it may be better to stay near historical expansion and become an effective counter puncher to make the reconquest very expensive for the Allies.



Completely agree with Micheal here.
I think even in DBB scen 30 it's almost impossible to conquer Oz or India, unless the allied player does some HUGE mistakes.
The supply situation would be critical for the Japs, more if you think that in DBB refineries do not produce supplies and so you have to ship everything from Japan!
But even if you conquer, say, Oz... how many divisions would you need to guard that overextended perimeter? The allies could be, anyway, landing everywhere and will obtain a complete local superiority wherever they decide to land... and if they go for the jugular (as they should do), all those assets will be cut off from the rest of the world and the war would be, more or less, lost.
IMHO the best way is to play in order to remain a credible threat for the longest possible time

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Post #: 139
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 3:49:26 PM   
castor troy


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You can conquer all of India except the urban heavy hexes. You can conquer all of Australia except the urban heavy hexes. Both India and Australia has so much supplies and so many troops that the Japanese would always end up against something like 2000 Indian/Australian av in an urban hex with some forts (forts really don't matter much in this case).

IMO only if the Allied player is really unexperienced he could lose that fight, means he doesn't retreat to these urban heavy hexes and not having enough supplies there. What didn't work with Hitler's plans of no retreat and fortresses all around works perfectly well in the game. Perfectly well without stacking limits and even more so with stacking limits.

What you can do as the Japanese is trying to land in or very close to these urban heavy hexes and try to take them before the Allied garisson them, but even a single division plus some support usually means you have to bring in 2000 av for the first assault and it will take several attacks to take the base. And then you still have to cut off any possible roads/rails to prevent the Allied from reinforcing. Landing somewhere and roll up all of India/Australia works very well, until you reach these urban areas.

I've faced both attacks in several games as the Allied and all the time I was thinking just lol and moved my stuff into these important areas. The Japanese soon had victory decease as they were rolling through an empty continent but as soon as they arrived at my fortresses it meant game over and then they had a whole empty continent themself to defend which so far always ended up in their defeat for literally no gain (no fuel stocks, no supply stocks, no LCU destroyed).

< Message edited by castor troy -- 7/16/2013 3:50:47 PM >


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Post #: 140
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 8:12:10 PM   
Cribtop


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Great discussion, guys.

Castor, yes, John III pulled off what you describe by invading Oz immediately at the two bases next to Sydney, surprising the Allied player and taking the heavy urban hexes before they could be effectively garrisoned. Such a plan could in theory work in either India or Oz, but now the cat's out of the bag on this strategy, I suspect Allied players will secure the UH hexes as job one, making their capture virtually impossible.

PS - If we are saying that stacking limits stop Japanese conquest of places way beyond their capabilities like Oz, India, and China; AND if we say that it prevents US Death Star glob invasions of bases with unstoppable force in the late game and Commonwealth Death Star invasions of Burma in '42, it sounds like stacking limits are a net plus in the realism department.

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RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 10:23:52 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

PS - If we are saying that stacking limits stop Japanese conquest of places way beyond their capabilities like Oz, India, and China; AND if we say that it prevents US Death Star glob invasions of bases with unstoppable force in the late game and Commonwealth Death Star invasions of Burma in '42, it sounds like stacking limits are a net plus in the realism department.



+1

I've played both sides with Stacking limits and i can honestly say that i won't even play again without them, no matter the side.


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Post #: 142
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/16/2013 10:32:47 PM   
GreyJoy


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June 7, 1942

The japanese are redeploying again in China. As soon as he masses his armies for another vector, i manage to use interior lines to assemble mine own armies and position in the right place. So far we've managed to hold him everywhere. His tanks are now all North, near Yenan.... I think he may try to push for the dirt northern road that leads to Lanchow... am already moving my reserves North, while the area of Chikkiang, after several weeks of tough battles, seems to be now stable, with the japanese divisions pulling back.

All my reinforcements are now unloaded at Karachi, under the escort of 3 american CVs. Now it's time to start pushing towards Burma. Will need few more months, but the threat is now gone and it's my turn to test his defences.

Transfering several air groups to Tarawa and Tabiutea, which are now developed enough to recieve them

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RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/18/2013 5:13:16 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

The 800 lb gorilla in the Pacific continues to be the USA. Dealing her a serious blow is hard to do. Some have tried the Aleutians and/or Hawaii route with minimal success. An invasion of India or Australia can set the war back for some time, but unless you are playing a version of Scenario 2 (DBB 30), it is hard to accomplish. Like GJ stated, it may be better to stay near historical expansion and become an effective counter puncher to make the reconquest very expensive for the Allies.


Yes, and it is really impossible to hurt the Americans unless the Allied player screws the pooch and lets you do it. I admire my JFB friends. It is not easy playing Japan.


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Post #: 144
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/22/2013 12:07:46 PM   
GreyJoy


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Back from a long week end in Sardinia (not bad!), the war is back on track.

July 7-27 1942

Japan is turtling. All the divisions involved in the Indian campaign are now getting to their inner perimeter (a good strategy IMHO!). Divisions and Army HQs are reported at Guam, Saipan, Tinian, Timor, Kuriles, Rabaul area and the Saumlaki area (North of Darwin).
That means he doesn't want to fight on the outer perimeter... That is both good and bad but it's good to know what is waiting in front of us.

The KB arrived in the Marshalls and did a very unsuccesfull campaign against Tarawa and Tabiutea.
Our LBA was harrassing his TFs evacuating from Suva. We've even moved there a SAG composed by CA Luisville +6 Porter Class DDs... the KB arrived and attacked, but the LBA CAP from Tabiutea, composed of 4 USMC Squadrons of Buffalos and F4F-3s did wonders and downed more than 50 KB planes (and pilots). The Luisville got light damage from 5 bombs but nothing more.... and the KB retired to the shadows North of Eniwetok. Good. Tarawa was attacked by LBAs, but our AAs downed most of them and didn't achieve anything other than sinking 2 Acms

We're now ready to invade Scoodra, held by 25,000 japanese....by now left alone

We've conquered back the Whole India (Madras included)and our divisions are already pushing from Assam to Burma. Cylon will be invaded soon.

Cocos Island is now unmolested and will be built up to its max

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Post #: 145
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/22/2013 12:29:03 PM   
GreyJoy


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Forgot to say... In China... well, no more Attacks in China... i still think he will try to push in the North, but not am not so sure as i was... maybe he-s just turtling in China too... we-ll see. However, in any case, i'm moving my reserves to occupy key positions North of Sian...just to be sure

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Post #: 146
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/22/2013 3:12:17 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

You opponent even took Socotra, which is a good move, but still fell way short, despite getting to Bombay in a pretty quick timeframe; it's probably impossible to get there in force much before the end of April, and he arrived in mid-May.


Just to say, njp72 started the siege in our game mid February on Turn 75. The speed of the advance and interdiction of the KB prohibited the Aussies from making landfall and I am defending Bombay with a minimal of forces. However, I gathered forces along with LOC's to Bombay and the IJ forces are cutoff for now. The IJ's main concern at this point is to open an LOC.

The forces do not have to be marched. Simply para-dropping forces to advanced bases and strat move forces forward, and the blitzkrieg begins ... So, It is quite possible to start sieging Bombay as early as mid February ... even so, the basic problem of getting 2:1 and taking Bombay remains ..

One thing this kind of attack does .. it stops Bombay from producing and after the battle the factories are in ruins .. whether this makes a difference in April 1944 remains to be seen ..

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Post #: 147
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/22/2013 3:17:05 PM   
witpqs


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In Babes I bet it does. The supply situation in and to India is quite different from stock. You must bring in supply to support big offensives in and beyond Burma.

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RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/22/2013 9:05:35 PM   
GreyJoy


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in my Game Bombay factories aren't in ruin at all. If he doesn't strat bomb, and if he doesn't conquer the city, the industries will remain intact when Japan Leaves the area and retreats

However witpqs is right: in DBB the supply and fuel situation in India is very different from stock. The industries there produces barely enough to sustain the Indian army without fighting. You need to ship fuel and supplies from CT, Aden and Abadan in order to keep an army in fighting conditions in Assam/Burma

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Post #: 149
RE: India again??...why always me?!!? - 7/22/2013 9:28:36 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

in my Game Bombay factories aren't in ruin at all. If he doesn't strat bomb, and if he doesn't conquer the city, the industries will remain intact when Japan Leaves the area and retreats

However witpqs is right: in DBB the supply and fuel situation in India is very different from stock. The industries there produces barely enough to sustain the Indian army without fighting. You need to ship fuel and supplies from CT, Aden and Abadan in order to keep an army in fighting conditions in Assam/Burma


This is my first BigBabes affair .. very revealing advice .. thank you very much for the heads up ...Only if the city gets occupied does industry take a random hit .. also it is good to know that I have to get supplies to India to do anything ..

The KB is not going to let me supply through the one and only port left .. You have a better situation right now in many respects ..

_____________________________

Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward. - Kurt Vonnegut

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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