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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

 
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 10:59:28 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars´ end.

P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50.

Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D).


Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already.



Agreed as such Lobaron, but as he is doing the figurs in yearly intervals. If u set P-38J to 300 and not 50 u will include 44 production in the 43 production figurs. Should be 50 in 43 and 250 in 44, as long as its done in yearly intevals. Then as u say 80 from the time the P-38L starts production/replacement.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 31
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:05:10 PM   
LoBaron


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Got it Rasmus. I did not notice you were already adapting production figures to the format used by obvert.

Still, thats a whole lot of fighters missing in the charts.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 32
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:07:24 PM   
LoBaron


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Just if this has been missed in the heat of the discussion: The complete production spreadsheet is at the bottom of this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 7/3/2013 11:13:11 PM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 33
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:08:48 PM   
Walloc

 

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Yeah, as i said to Erik in my PM he partly pasted from. i would check each case of allied factories. There are problems as u also point out in several of his figurs. Im just lazy, so i just pointed out the problem in general and let him do all the work

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/3/2013 11:13:48 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 34
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:25:54 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers.

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.


quote:

PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43

FIGHTERS

USAAF
P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
20/month x 6 months = 120

P-38J
10/month x 1 month = 10

As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on.

So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game.

P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
40/month x 6 months = 240

P-38J
50/month x 1 month = 50

Kind regards,

Rasmus



This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars´ end.

P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50.

Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D).


Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already.




Edit: Should there still be doubt: Yes, the factories upgrade to the most recent model at production start date immediately and completely. So for example all 50 P-38J change to L version on 44/06, adding to the 30 R&D, resulting in a total per month production of 80 beginning 44/06.


Thanks LoBaron. I'll change those.

This for me is just a better method for seeing what is happening. I like things organized more visually, and I don't do as well with spreadsheet data, so it's a selfish effort really. Maybe it'll be a helpful format to someone else as well, I hope.

I do hope to continue to improve the mistakes and oversights so at least it's as correct as is possible without looking through each individual unit to see what the incoming numbers are. I'll have a look at the spreadsheet more thoroughly soon to see if there are places to draw some more accurate data from for certain airframe types. As this is not organized by type but by calendar and group it may be hard to do that.

I guess it's best to think of the arriving groups as a likely high estimate for airframe totals.



_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 35
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:57:12 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Yeah, as i said to Erik in my PM he partly pasted from. i would check each case of allied factories. There are problems as u also point out in several of his figurs. Im just lazy, so i just pointed out the problem in general and let him do all the work

Kind regards,

Rasmus


Thanks!

The figures with upgrading factories are simply something I didn't realize existed on the Allied side. Been a while and when I played the Allied I was probably less than interested in airframe numbers agains the AI.

I fixed the P-38 variants as you pointed out, and the P-51 line up to the P-51D. For the P-51H LoBaron advocates 250/month but the number shown in game would be different if carrying over the P-51D factories. Would the total be 292 + 150 = 442/month?

If I'm still playing by then for either side I don't really care anyway, I'm just happy!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 7/3/2013 11:58:09 PM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 36
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/3/2013 11:57:49 PM   
Nalamin

 

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I am currently at 12/44 in a boosted Japan PBM game as the allies. I can tell you that many squadrons appear without having a full compliment of aircraft as several others have mentioned. The aircraft that enter the game via squadrons are very significant however.

In this game I have experienced some fighter shortages, particularly with the US Army. I have checked historical records and the numbers of entering planes appear to be quite accurate. I feel my shortages are due to several factors...

1) The boosted Japanese air forces have caused higher losses.
2) In the real war disabled and destroyed aircraft were cannibalized to keep planes flying. Is this reflected in the game?
3) I think the attrition rates for ground aircraft may be a bit high.

Of course, it is hard to tell exactly what is happening, overall AE does a great job!

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 37
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 12:36:10 AM   
Walloc

 

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Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I fixed the P-38 variants as you pointed out, and the P-51 line up to the P-51D. For the P-51H LoBaron advocates 250/month but the number shown in game would be different if carrying over the P-51D factories. Would the total be 292 + 150 = 442/month?

If I'm still playing by then for either side I don't really care anyway, I'm just happy!



Production
30 P 51 B factory/production, upgrading to P 51H through P 51D
90 P 51 D factory/production, upgrading to P 51H
130 P 51H factory/production
= 250

Replacement of P51H 162. So 250+162= 412 P 51H

Remember only factories/production upgrade not replacement. The difference between 412 and 442 is the 30 replacement of P 51D that doesnt upgrade as its replacements. It just stops. Yeah its tricky when there is both production and replacements.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/4/2013 12:39:01 AM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 38
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 3:16:56 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend. But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..


Yes, leave the snide remarks to me. I'll make one as soon as I finish examining all of it and comprehending it. Not.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 39
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 6:03:34 AM   
Roger Neilson 3


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From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend. But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..


Well, we're engaged now, so I have a bit more time until the 'planning' begins in ernest.

I am a teacher, so these first few weeks of summer I can do some things at leisure before my other projects are in full swing.


Obvert you have my sympathy, I was a teacher for 36 years and count myself lucky I am no longer one with the madness of the current regime. Enjoy your summer, you will have earned it.

Roger

_____________________________


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Post #: 40
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 6:13:25 AM   
Saros

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nalamin
1) The boosted Japanese air forces have caused higher losses.
2) In the real war disabled and destroyed aircraft were cannibalized to keep planes flying. Is this reflected in the game?
3) I think the attrition rates for ground aircraft may be a bit high.


For every 5 planes lost to "write offs" another fresh one is conjured and placed into the unit.

(in reply to Nalamin)
Post #: 41
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 8:45:30 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend. But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..


Well, we're engaged now, so I have a bit more time until the 'planning' begins in ernest.

I am a teacher, so these first few weeks of summer I can do some things at leisure before my other projects are in full swing.


Obvert you have my sympathy, I was a teacher for 36 years and count myself lucky I am no longer one with the madness of the current regime. Enjoy your summer, you will have earned it.

Roger


Thanks Roger. I don't have it bad at all, being in an international school where the students are bright, interested and well behaved. I love what I teach and that is what makes the work hard, long houred and exhausting, but also very fulfilling. The summer is still a much needed time to gather the energy back, to reflect and just play a bit.

And count up airframes ... what was I thinking?

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 42
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 8:47:43 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I fixed the P-38 variants as you pointed out, and the P-51 line up to the P-51D. For the P-51H LoBaron advocates 250/month but the number shown in game would be different if carrying over the P-51D factories. Would the total be 292 + 150 = 442/month?

If I'm still playing by then for either side I don't really care anyway, I'm just happy!



Production
30 P 51 B factory/production, upgrading to P 51H through P 51D
90 P 51 D factory/production, upgrading to P 51H
130 P 51H factory/production
= 250

Replacement of P51H 162. So 250+162= 412 P 51H

Remember only factories/production upgrade not replacement. The difference between 412 and 442 is the 30 replacement of P 51D that doesnt upgrade as its replacements. It just stops. Yeah its tricky when there is both production and replacements.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


Perfect. Updated.

Thanks Rasmus!

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 43
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 12:07:48 PM   
Skyros


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From: Columbia SC
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Another thing to remember is that there is sometimes a month or two delay in allied factories switching over to new production which will reduce the numbers produce.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 44
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 1:49:38 PM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Another thing to remember is that there is sometimes a month or two delay in allied factories switching over to new production which will reduce the numbers produce.


Ahhh. Good to know.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Skyros)
Post #: 45
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 2:41:51 PM   
PaxMondo


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Doesn't change the numbers, just the model.

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Pax

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Post #: 46
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 3:00:49 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Doesn't change the numbers, just the model.



Pax is correct as the "old" model just stays in production until it upgrades, which usually happens late anyway

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Post #: 47
RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45 - 7/4/2013 8:42:14 PM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

For a long while I've been hearing that the Allied production numbers are just a portion of what the Allies get each month and that the incoming groups have a lot of extra planes that change the scope of the Allied OOB considerably. I finally had some time to explore this further.

I counted up the incoming group numbers, then calculated the production number for all nations throughout the war, including the Soviet numbers only for 45. For incoming US Navy groups I counted only the CVE replenishment groups, not the normal operating CV groups as the Japanese side also gets filled out groups for the CVs. This is really an assessment of how to think about the numbers to be able to compare the sides capabilities throughout the campaign.

Someone may have done this before, and I might have done a lot of work for nothing, but it was interesting and I learned a bunch. Here it is.

Good job!

Although... to possibly give you even more work...
Have you counted returning airgroups? I am pretty sure, at least some of them return with new planes, especially if they change their profile (like from bomber into fighter unit)

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 48
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