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AT values for artillery ?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> AT values for artillery ? Page: [1]
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AT values for artillery ? - 7/2/2013 9:13:23 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 485
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
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Hi,

I wondered that no artillery (even not heavy ones like 155mm or 203mm) have any AT value in the game. Is this an oversight or intentional ?

Will (lighter) tanks be at least damaged from fire of heavier arty systems ?

Also is there a way to keep direct and indirect fire apart in equipment editor entries? Ex: The German LARS rocket system for sure has a AT value of 0 in direct fire (I cant fire directly at tanks), but should have a certain at value in indirect fire (it could shoot the AT2 mines, which should disable a number of tanks, tracks mainly)....also MLRS system have AT mun iirc (of course also only indirect fire).

Other arty like 105mm guns or best known example the 25pdr. were able to fire heat rounds in direct mode at armor....but not in indirect fire.

Thanks.


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/4/2013 10:45:39 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: AT values for artillery ? - 7/2/2013 9:19:23 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7124
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Hi,

I wondered that no artillery (even not heavy ones like 155mm or 203mm) have any AT value in the game. Is this an oversight or intentional ?

Will (lighter) tanks be at least damaged from fire of heavier arty systems ?

Also is there a way to keep direct and indirect fire apart in equipment editor entries? Ex: The German LARS rocket system for sure has a AT value of 0 in direct fire (I cant fire directly at tanks), but should have a certain at value in indirect fire (it could shoot the AT2 mines, which should disable a number of tanks, tracks mainly)....also MLRS system have AT mun iirc (of course also only indirect fire).

Other arty like 105mm guns or best known example the 25pdr. were able to fire heat rounds in direct mode at armor....but not in indirect fire.

Thanks.


1/4 of artillery AP is applied as AT - automatically.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 2
RE: AT values for artillery ? - 7/2/2013 11:51:41 PM   
Shazman

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2009
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Different nations used artillery in very different ways. Some used lighter artillery in direct fire roles and these typically had AP rounds as well as HE and/or HEAT. To determine whether or not an artillery piece needs to have an AP value added to it you would need to do some reading. Of course this value would have to be added by you in the game editor.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 3
RE: AT values for artillery ? - 7/4/2013 10:33:06 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 485
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
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Thanks to you both...

However what if I add an AP value for example to the German LARS110mm rocket launcher ? Lets say a battery of these are attacked by tanks directly. Are they able to shoot back DIRECT fire at the tanks then if they have an AT value ? Of course this would be wrong, as the AT capability of LARS lays only in INDIRECT fire (with submunition AT mines or against light armor with shrapnells).

However in the case of a 25pdr (if the battery is deployed and combat ready and not just preparing firing position or leaving their position, then they should be overrun by tanks) then these should be able to fire DIRECT AT fire but NOT INDIRECT fire (they didnt have modern submunitions at the time 25pdr was in service!)...also HE shell maybe to small to cause serious damage to med or heavy armor...but multiple rocket launchers and heavy arty (105mm + above) could disable tanks with HE.


Well heres the AT data for LARS (AT 2 mine) only in German

Mine AT-2, Farbe: rot
Im Gefechtskopf sind 5 Minen AT-2 untergebracht, die im Zielgebiet ca. 50m über dem Boden durch den Doppelzünder, elektronisch ausgestoßen werden. Dabei trennt der Zünder den Raketenmotor vom Gefechtskopf und drückt dann durch Federwirkung die Minen aus:

Die Mine AT-2 wiederum fällt mittels eines Fallschirms auf den Boden. Nach einigen Sekunden löst die Elektronik der Mine den sie umgebenden Sprengring, der die sternförmig angeordneten 8 Spreizfüßen frei gibt und die Mine sich somit einerseits aufrichten kann und andererseits neben Standfestigkeit im Gelände auch eine Sicherung gegen Aufnahme bietet.
Die von Dynamit Nobel hergestellte Mine ist nach dem Hohlladungsprinzip konstruiert und wird sowohl bei Aufnahme (also durch Spaten oder Hand) als bei Herunterbiegen des Sensordrahtes, der wie eine Antenne vertikal über die Mine aufgerichtet ist und als Berührungszünder dient, ausgelöst. Die Sprengwirkung der Mine führt auch bei gepanzerten Gefechtsfahrzeugen mit einer Durchschlagsleistung bis max. 140 mm zu deren kampfunfähigkeit. Wird die Mine über den Berührungszünder ausgelöst, so schießt sie ihre Hohlladung von unten gegen das darüberfahrende Fahrzeug, durchschlägt dessen Boden und bringt im Inneren einen Sprengsatz zur Zündung.
Die Höhe der Mine beträgt 12,8 cm bei einem Durchmesser von 10,3 cm, das Gewicht beträgt 2,2 kg. Im Gegensatz zu dem Vorgängermodell, der Stabmine AT-1 ist die AT-2 der Familie der intelligenten Minen zuzuordnen, da die Wirkzeiten von 3, 6, 12 , 24, 48 und 96 Stunden programmiert werden kann. Als zusätzliche interne Sicherung deaktiviert sich die Mine nach 100 Stunden selbständig und gibt somit gesperrte Geländeabschnitte wieder frei. Nach Ablauf der Wirkzeit zerstört sie sich mittels Selbstzerstörungsmechanismus durch Sprengung selbst.


AT info for 25pdr:

For anti-tank use, the 25-pounder was also supplied with a limited amount of 20 pounds (9.1 kg) solid armour-piercing (AP) shot, later replaced with a more potent version with a ballistic cap (APBC). The AP shot was fired with maximum charge, Charge No. 3, Super, or Super with Super Increment depending on the ordnance mark, as muzzle velocity was critical in direct fire for penetration and a flat trajectory.
A shaped charge anti-tank shell was under development in Canada, but the introduction of the QF 17 Pounder, an anti-tank gun, in 1944 ended its development. After the Second World War, the UK replaced AP shot with a HESH shell. Coloured marked shells (dye and PETN) were also developed but not introduced.



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/4/2013 10:45:54 AM >

(in reply to Shazman)
Post #: 4
RE: AT values for artillery ? - 7/7/2013 12:10:41 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 485
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
Status: offline
Well I did some testing and it seems AT values for arty do only work for DIRECT fire....

I also noted that arty seems to be a bit ineffective in game, can maybe the arty effectivness be a upped in the next patch ????

I pitted 16 of above pictured LARS against some red units (one infantry one tank), but they rarely kill anyone only a few men and trucks or so... And this was CLEAR terrain ! Or did I do anything wrong ? You can see those LARS (and other weapons even newer like MLRS or the Russian version) do pack a lot of firepower (I mean their forerunners were the STALINORGELS in WW2, those were the most feared soviet weapons by the Germans!!)..... but in this game they seem not that fearsome :(

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 5
RE: AT values for artillery ? - 7/7/2013 12:43:26 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2056
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
Depends on a lot of things... where shall i start..?

- Number of guns/tubes
- Hex size
- Equipment density
- Attrition Divider
- Proficiencies
- Entrenchment level
- Supply and Readiness
....

In TOAW artillery is best used in support of ground attacks to reduce enemy entrenchment levels. Or less technically: To suppress the enemy. That however doesn't mean that the classical Soviet "Bagration" Style preparatory barrage doesn't work. It depends on scenario design.

_____________________________


(in reply to Alpha77)
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