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Best Game to Start with?

 
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Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 6:33:27 PM   
lparkh


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I am getting close to take the plunge on this game but given it seems complex and novel I want to pick a game in the series that offers the best (or close to the best) tutorial support. By that I meant tutorial videos and hopefully in game tutorials. Also that there are good starting low complexity scenarios.
My preference would be to pick up Greece or Highway to the Reich. Would this be wise choices or would I be better off picking Bulge since I know there are videos for that? Or the videos for Bulge clearly relevant enough to Greece/Highway that it doesn't matter?
My particular interest is to play with all the command limitations (delays in orders etc) since I find that especially attractive about this game.
Thanks for any advise
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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 9:38:17 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

I am getting close to take the plunge on this game but given it seems complex and novel I want to pick a game in the series that offers the best (or close to the best) tutorial support. By that I meant tutorial videos and hopefully in game tutorials. Also that there are good starting low complexity scenarios.
My preference would be to pick up Greece or Highway to the Reich. Would this be wise choices or would I be better off picking Bulge since I know there are videos for that? Or the videos for Bulge clearly relevant enough to Greece/Highway that it doesn't matter?
My particular interest is to play with all the command limitations (delays in orders etc) since I find that especially attractive about this game.
Thanks for any advise


The historic scenarios in Battles from the Bulge allow a player to explore the attributes and composition of various Axis and Allied (primarily American) infantry and armor formations with heavy Axis offensive operations against an Allied defensive line early in the scenario time period and a heavy Allied counter offensive against an Axis defensive line later in the scenario time period.

The historic scenarios in Highway to the Reich include airborne operations as part of heavy Allied (American and British) offensive operations against an Axis defense that reacts to the Allied moves.

The Battles for Greece scenarios are largely Axis offensive operations against defensive formations composed of Greek and British Army troops reacting to Axis moves.



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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 10:04:20 PM   
lparkh


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Thank you for taking time to reply. Is there a difference in these games in their level of tutorial support, as opposed to what kind of historical situations they model?

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 10:10:24 PM   
map66

 

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From your initial post I'm not sure you realize the Bulge game contains the core game engine and is required to play either HTTR of BfG.

That said, the Bulge scenarios contain a nice mix between scales with a wide range of types of combat, so is a good starting point for the system.

(in reply to lparkh)
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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 10:15:33 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Thank you for taking time to reply. Is there a difference in these games in their level of tutorial support, as opposed to what kind of historical situations they model?


Bulge has a tutorial scenario that is linked to the embedded user manual to explain the various types of troops operations and the commands / tactics to support them.


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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 10:23:25 PM   
Templer


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Because the games are not cheap, I suggest you gonna wait on a response from Dave here.

But as much we can promise, if you manage to get in the Command Ops series, then you will have an experience as close to a commander like no other game I know.


< Message edited by Templer -- 7/2/2013 1:01:50 AM >

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/1/2013 10:26:01 PM   
RockKahn

 

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I believe there's a BFTB Demo. That may help you decide.

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 12:54:46 AM   
lparkh


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Ah I had not realized I must buy Bulge to get the others. I looked for that kind of dependency on the product page but did not spot. SO that makes the decision rather easy doesn't it ;-) Bulge is really my only choice out of these three right since it is a prerequisite?
Thanks everyone

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 2:10:02 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer

Because the games are not cheap, I suggest you gonna wait on a response from Dave here.

Now that's a cheap shot.

I do apologise for any tardiness in my response of late but as I explained in another thread I am recovering from an operation on my hand. It is improving each day and I can now use some of my fingers in my right hand to type this post.

< Message edited by Arjuna -- 7/2/2013 2:17:57 AM >


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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 2:32:19 AM   
Templer


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Oups, Dave,
that was not meant as an offence or as a cheap shot.

I was convinced that the question should be answered by the masters brain itself.
Ultimately, it would be a shame if lparkh would choose the worst possible product.

And I knew nothing about your injury.
I consider myself only a few days back to the forum.

Get well soon.

< Message edited by Templer -- 7/2/2013 12:27:16 PM >

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 2:51:47 AM   
Arjuna


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That's OK Templar. All the best.

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Post #: 11
RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 4:36:32 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

From your initial post I'm not sure you realize the Bulge game contains the core game engine and is required to play either HTTR of BfG.

That said, the Bulge scenarios contain a nice mix between scales with a wide range of types of combat, so is a good starting point for the system.


As map66 said you need to get BFTB first anyway, and you won't regret it.
It's like one of those epic, long books though, that take a few chapters to get into, but once you are hooked your along for the full triology, and still left wanting more.

There are plenty of learning aids available for it but bare in mind that it has been constantly evolving via Dave's excellent support for the product, through lots of patches, and free small upgrades that he has worked on and also patched into the game over the years since its initial release.
The AAR forum is a good source of learning for the game as well so go read some of the stuff in there if you haven't already.

You can't really beat diving in and giving it a go yourself though. I found the learning of it just as fun, and challenging, as trying to win the battles once I got a grasp on the game engine.
If you have any specific questions on how to play the game as your learning ask them in the War Room forum.
There are some great guys on this forum that, if there like me, actually enjoy answering your questions, so just ask away.

It's not however the busiest forum on the internet, so you may have to wait 24 hours for an answer

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 1:27:19 PM   
Bobbyb1

 

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To jump in and ask a follow-on question, what then is a recommended play order for the BftB (and for that matter HTTR; I don't have COTA II yet) scenarios?

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 1:39:38 PM   
Templer


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I would say no.

Personally, I have started the BftB Tutorial countless times to practice the game play on and on.
The more you play a specific scenario, the more familiar you get of it, so that you more easily can focus of learning the game with ist mechanics.

In general, I would say, as long as you don't really be familiar with Command Ops game mechanics, you should go on playing scenarios with fewer units.


< Message edited by Templer -- 7/2/2013 4:02:39 PM >

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 3:28:01 PM   
lparkh


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Thanks folks. The analogy to a great book that takes a few chapters to get into is excellent. War and Peace was like that for me. Struggle through a 100 pages and then couldn't put it down :-) Slight pity that it is Bulge first since I am historically less interested in that but will soldier on ;-)
Lin

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 4:07:26 PM   
Brindlebane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobbyb1

To jump in and ask a follow-on question, what then is a recommended play order for the BftB (and for that matter HTTR; I don't have COTA II yet) scenarios?


If you check in the BftB manual there is an appendix G.Here it lists all the battles in a sort of Campaign order,starting from the earliest dates to the final dates.It's also a nice mix of small to epic battles when played in that order.

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 6:41:56 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Thanks folks. The analogy to a great book that takes a few chapters to get into is excellent. War and Peace was like that for me. Struggle through a 100 pages and then couldn't put it down :-) Slight pity that it is Bulge first since I am historically less interested in that but will soldier on ;-)
Lin


Well I wasn't much interested in the Bulge either, but the more I played the more wanted to know about the history, and the more interested I became in it.
I have now read countless accounts of it on the internet, and a book about the I&R Platoon "The longest Winter".

The only problem is most of what I have read so far is from the Allies perspective of it. If anyone knows of a book from the German perspective that has been translated into English I would be very interested to know about it.

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/2/2013 10:05:49 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Well I wasn't much interested in the Bulge either, but the more I played the more wanted to know about the history, and the more interested I became in it.
I have now read countless accounts of it on the internet, and a book about the I&R Platoon "The longest Winter".

The only problem is most of what I have read so far is from the Allies perspective of it. If anyone knows of a book from the German perspective that has been translated into English I would be very interested to know about it.


Here are a couple I found with a Google search.

====================================================

The Battle of the Bulge: The German View : Perspectives from Hitler's High Command Greenhill Books - 1999 - Hardback - 237 pages - ISBN 1853673544;

Description: This text examines preparations for the offensive, the progress of the operation and assessments of the Wehrmacht's performance from leading figures in German high command, including a transcription of Hitler's key speech on December 12th, 1944.


Hitler's Ardennes Offensive: The German View of the Battle of the Bulge Greenhill Books/Lionel Leventhal, Limited - 2005 - Paperback - 264 pages - ISBN 1853676837;

Description: ow in paperback, this classic work gives unparalleled insight into the German view of the offensive known to Germany as Wacht am Rhein and to the Allies as the Battle of the Bulge. The book vividly recounts how Hitler and his generals perceived the progress and ultimate failure of their final great assault. The Ardennes offensive in December 1944 surprised the Allies with its ferocity, and was intended to turn the course of the war in Germany's favour. Numerous subsequent accounts of the battle have tended towards the perspective of the Allied victors, lacking first-hand detail about German intentions and operations. Now for the first time in a single volume, historian Danny S. Parker has brought together many rare documents representing the views of all the major personalities within the German army headquarters. These include Oberstgruppenfuhrer Josef Dietrich and Generalmajor Fritz Kramer, General Hasso von Manteuffel, Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel and others. Everything from preparations for the offensive, to attitudes to the whole campaign before it started and after it was brought to a close are covered in this book. As with "Fighting in Hell" and "The Anvil of War", two Greenhill books presenting accounts of campaigns in Russia written by the senior German officers involved, "Hitler's Ardennes Offensive" provides a fascinating and invaluable record of the German perspective, essential for a balanced view of the battle.

Dark December : The Full Account of the Battle of the Bulge; Trade Paper ISBN: 9781594161506 2011 Author: Robert E. Merriam

Synopsis: Dark December occupies a distinguished place among war books. Every paragraph is based upon evidence, not flimsy wartime rumors. Technical enough for the professional, accurate enough for the historian (in fact, it is history of the best), it is lucid and understandable for the general reader."- New York Herald Tribune "If other veterans of the Army's historical division can maintain Mr. Merriam's high standard of stimulating, critical and painstaking work, we will be fortunate. Dark December can be heartily recommended to anyone faintly interested in the war."- New York Times"The book explodes a number of myths which have been winning their improper way into general belief." -Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., Booklist The massive German counteroffensive through Belgium's Ardennes forest in December 1944 took the American and British armies by surprise and changed the outcome of the war. With whole divisions destroyed and decimated, the American army scrambled to contain the German threat, while also trying to determine how such an attack had gone undetected. The Americans succeeded in winning the month-long battle, commonly known as the Battle of the Bulge, through the tenacity of several pockets of troops, notably those in the Belgian town of Bastogne, and the remarkable rapid movement of Patton's Third Army to seal the breech in the American lines. The battle stalled the British and American advances and lengthened the war with the result that the Soviet Union was able to make greater gains in Europe than previously anticipated. Dark December is a thorough and engrossing examination of the Battle of the Bulge by a historian who had the opportunity to prepare notes as the battle was occurring and consult classified American as well as German records. Notably, the book contains unique and critical information, including details gleaned from interviews conducted by the author with commanding officers on both sides, some of which are the only reports gathered from these sources. Originally published in 1947, this the first paperback edition with the complete original text and maps.
They appear to be historical views of the operation from the German perspective.

The Battle Of The Bulge: Hitler's Ardennes Offensive, 1944-1945; Da Capo Press - 2004 - Paperback - 464 pages - ISBN 0306813912

Description: First published in 1992 to rave reviews, Danny Parker's Battle of the Bulge has since become the "standard" history of the battle, praised by historians for its stirring narrative, meticulous research, and its wealth of new information and fresh interpretations. Published now in a new edition, including a photo section with fascinating then-and-now images of the Ardennes area battlefield, this "classic" history of the Battle of the Bulge will be released to coincide with the 60th anniversary of the battle.

=========================

Hope this helps.



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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/3/2013 1:37:33 AM   
dazkaz15


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Thanks Jim.
Just ordered a used version of Dark December from Amazon for £8.

It had some very good customer reviews.
I was actually looking for a book written by a German soldier or officer, who was there not an American, but the customer review was saying the following, which sold it to me.

"Want an honest and analytical account of the Ardennes Offensive that was written without the haze of time? Robert E. Merriam's Dark December might be just what you're looking for. Amazingly balanced, given that Merriam was with the official US Army historical section, Dark December takes the reader on a journey that covers all the significant topics. Merriam describes the circumstances leading to the conception of Wacht Am Rhein (Watch on the Rhine)/Herbstnebel (Autum Smoke), planning of the offensive, implementation of one of the most effective deception plans of WWII, overviews of the pitched battles, and the American counteroffensive (and Hitler's secondary offensives). The structure of Dark December also goes a long way towards conveying the story in a fair light, one which the reader can draw some conclusions for his/her self."

I have also just ordered Hitler's Ardennes Offensive: The German View of the Battle of the Bulge used for just £2.80!

All I need now is some time to read them

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 7/3/2013 1:51:33 AM >

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/3/2013 9:30:20 PM   
phoenix

 

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Well, I had that 100 page experience of War and Peace too. But still haven't finished it.....

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/3/2013 10:58:42 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Thanks Jim.
Just ordered a used version of Dark December from Amazon for £8.

It had some very good customer reviews.
I was actually looking for a book written by a German soldier or officer, who was there not an American, but the customer review was saying the following, which sold it to me.

"Want an honest and analytical account of the Ardennes Offensive that was written without the haze of time? Robert E. Merriam's Dark December might be just what you're looking for. Amazingly balanced, given that Merriam was with the official US Army historical section, Dark December takes the reader on a journey that covers all the significant topics. Merriam describes the circumstances leading to the conception of Wacht Am Rhein (Watch on the Rhine)/Herbstnebel (Autum Smoke), planning of the offensive, implementation of one of the most effective deception plans of WWII, overviews of the pitched battles, and the American counteroffensive (and Hitler's secondary offensives). The structure of Dark December also goes a long way towards conveying the story in a fair light, one which the reader can draw some conclusions for his/her self."

I have also just ordered Hitler's Ardennes Offensive: The German View of the Battle of the Bulge used for just £2.80!

All I need now is some time to read them


For a German perspective on battle, look for "Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sager, a conscript to the German army.

It was recommended to me by a US Army tank master gunner as the best description available of a soldier's life. Sager served most of his time with the Das Reich division on both the Eastern and Western front. You get a little flavor of the division's operations and a lot to digest regarding the soldier's lot while serving in that division and army.


_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/4/2013 6:33:22 PM   
lparkh


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regarding War and Peace..llo
When I was reading it there were no distracting computer games ;-) and I wasn't allowed much TV so long books were a bit easier 'sell' ;-)
This is of course in the pre electricity times of the 1970s.

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/4/2013 6:50:27 PM   
phoenix

 

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I tried it again very recently, and got as far as about an average novel length - circa 100,000 words - then was interrupted by something for a few months. Even though I loved it, when I came back to it I just couldn't remember who was who, and couldn't face starting again from scratch....

You're right though - our attention spans have been butchered by computers.

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/4/2013 7:59:26 PM   
henri51


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"Forgotten soldiers" is considered by many to be the best soldier account ever written, and I have read it (years ago), but I don't remember that Das Reich was in the Battle of the Bulge or that the author discusses it. I still remember his vivid descriptions of the debacle on the Eastern Front though...

Henri

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RE: Best Game to Start with? - 7/5/2013 6:25:24 AM   
The Plodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah

For a German perspective on battle, look for "Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sager, a conscript to the German army.

It was recommended to me by a US Army tank master gunner as the best description available of a soldier's life. Sager served most of his time with the Das Reich division on both the Eastern and Western front. You get a little flavor of the division's operations and a lot to digest regarding the soldier's lot while serving in that division and army.


quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

"Forgotten soldiers" is considered by many to be the best soldier account ever written, and I have read it (years ago), but I don't remember that Das Reich was in the Battle of the Bulge or that the author discusses it. I still remember his vivid descriptions of the debacle on the Eastern Front though...

Henri


It's great book. His account of his service on the Eastern Front makes you realise how massive that front was. He was actually in the Grossdeutchland Division though, which was a Wehrmacht unit not SS.



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