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Night Attacks?

 
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Night Attacks? - 6/29/2013 3:06:13 AM   
Tzar007


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I tried to launch an attack at night but as soon as units were formed up and ready to go, they put themselves in rest mode...I then thought, I need to select "None" as the Rest parameter of the attack so that they don't wait until tomorrow morning, but to no avail. They got out of rest mode, but still stayed put in deployed mode until the sun rose and then only started moving to attack.

So is it possible to launch an attack at night?

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/29/2013 5:01:14 AM   
johndoesecond


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Setting the rest parameter to "none" keeps them awake and allows them to carry out night missions. The only case where they'd stay to rest with rest set to "none" is if they were already too exhausted, so check their fatigue level.

< Message edited by johndoesecond -- 6/29/2013 5:02:09 AM >

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/29/2013 1:12:11 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

I tried to launch an attack at night but as soon as units were formed up and ready to go, they put themselves in rest mode...I then thought, I need to select "None" as the Rest parameter of the attack so that they don't wait until tomorrow morning, but to no avail. They got out of rest mode, but still stayed put in deployed mode until the sun rose and then only started moving to attack.

So is it possible to launch an attack at night?



Yes, but it takes planning.

To attack effectively at night, units should be rested and positioned to take into account sight distances, and thus effective firing distances, are lower in the dark.

To conduct a successful attack, troops need to be rested (as a minimum left in a defensive formation away from any significant danger of attack or in a position where they can be seen for bombardment) until their fatigue value is as low as possible at the onset of the attack. They also should use a well scouted path to avoid any surprises lurking in the darkness that would sap their strength before engaging in the attack.

The options to limit rest or allow no rest may be necessary if the attack duration or intensity results in enough "new" fatigue for the units to trigger a normal "night time" rest period before the objective is secured.

It also would be worthwhile to review attacking units' fatigue, cohesion, and suppression status more closely during a night time attack to avoid ruining the formation for use later in the scenario by pushing them beyond reasonable limits for effectiveness.

Effective bombardment of enemy positions prior to the attack, particularly when the enemy is resting, would raise fatigue, suppression, and cohesion values for the defending force, making it easier for the well rested force to take the defended positions.


_____________________________

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jim

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/29/2013 3:37:40 PM   
Tzar007


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They had about 20% fatigue so they were fresh enough. They were actually ready to go, I could see attack paths from some of the lead units, but then no progress. The task indicator on some units flickers from pink to white, like they did some replanning. Finally, when daylight comes, they get moving but then get spotted and are hammered by the enemy's arty.

I'm wondering if it's a bug, I'll post the saved file in tech support so they can look and see if something's wrong.

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/29/2013 9:55:34 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

They had about 20% fatigue so they were fresh enough. They were actually ready to go, I could see attack paths from some of the lead units, but then no progress. The task indicator on some units flickers from pink to white, like they did some replanning. Finally, when daylight comes, they get moving but then get spotted and are hammered by the enemy's arty.

I'm wondering if it's a bug, I'll post the saved file in tech support so they can look and see if something's wrong.


I'd suggest instead of looking at the game mechanics (BftB isn't "Doom") look at how real troops were used in and real commanders handled night assaults

Then construct the plan according to those criteria.

Starting with 20-percent fatigue in the dark is as if when the British were performing night bombings on the Reich, they'd assign crews KP duty for the evening meal before ordering them to climb into the bombers to conduct the mission.

Yeah, they'd be "fresh enough" to start the mission, but not necessarily effective enough to accomplish it by the time they reached the bombing zone.

The developers have made a significant effort to simulate the human and combat unit attributes associated with combat. Otherwise, there wouldn't be attributes like fatigue, suppression status, cohesion, night vs. day line of sight, commander effectiveness, supply status, and the like evaluated as part of the combat success calculations.

The "bug" just could be the commander's planning and implementation instead of the software.

_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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Post #: 5
RE: Night Attacks? - 6/30/2013 1:33:46 AM   
Tzar007


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah

I'd suggest instead of looking at the game mechanics (BftB isn't "Doom") look at how real troops were used in and real commanders handled night assaults

Then construct the plan according to those criteria.

Starting with 20-percent fatigue in the dark is as if when the British were performing night bombings on the Reich, they'd assign crews KP duty for the evening meal before ordering them to climb into the bombers to conduct the mission.

Yeah, they'd be "fresh enough" to start the mission, but not necessarily effective enough to accomplish it by the time they reached the bombing zone.

The developers have made a significant effort to simulate the human and combat unit attributes associated with combat. Otherwise, there wouldn't be attributes like fatigue, suppression status, cohesion, night vs. day line of sight, commander effectiveness, supply status, and the like evaluated as part of the combat success calculations.

The "bug" just could be the commander's planning and implementation instead of the software.


Thanks for the military lesson jim.

The very reason why I'm playing sophisticated wargames such as Command Ops is exactly because I am not interested in Doom-type simulation, as you say. So I am not expecting to be able to do everything I want to do in this game.

Perhaps a little bit of context is required: I am playing the First Clash at Veve scenario of Battles for Greece. This starts at 16h00. At around 19h00, you get the the 1st SS Inf Bn of the SS LAH. It's fresh, no fatigue, high morale. I send it out a few kilometers down south and then and order an attack on the Veve village at the entrance of the Kleidi pass at around 23h.

Even in real-life and in historical WW2 conditions, this is a very plausible situation and a night attack is entirely possible.

You may want to run my saved file and see for yourself: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3357357&mpage=1�

Brindlebane played it and actually found out something weird that I had not noticed it before: the Flak unit seems to be holding off the whole battalion for no specific reason. I don't know if that is a bug or not, but simply removing the unit gets the whole battalion moving again. Strange behaviour.

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/30/2013 4:03:18 AM   
Arjuna


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I just took a preliminary run through the save. So far it appears that the assault boss is waiting on his left flank to catch up. It's not doing so. I don't know why yet. I will check through this in more detail tomorrow.

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/30/2013 6:31:11 PM   
phoenix

 

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Thanks for the military lesson jim. Lol.

Sounds like a bug. Just played through the brigade night attack scenario in the COTA add-on and the attack went in no probs. Gave the order at about 18.00, they formed up by about 21.00 and kicked off at around 22.00. Kept going through to morning (without success - but it was a full-frontal attack order given to the on-map boss).



< Message edited by phoenix -- 6/30/2013 6:40:54 PM >

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/30/2013 6:40:15 PM   
phoenix

 

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edited

< Message edited by phoenix -- 6/30/2013 6:41:08 PM >

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/30/2013 6:46:29 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Thanks for the military lesson jim. Lol.

Sounds like a bug. Just played through the brigade night attack scenario in the COTA add-on and the attack went in no probs. Gave the order at about 18.00, they formed up by about 21.00 and kicked off at around 22.00. Kept going through to morning (without success - but it was a full-frontal attack order given to the on-map boss).



I rested the arriving troops in jump-off positions until 4 a.m. (six-hours) and the attack went off without a hitch at zero fatigue.


_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: Night Attacks? - 6/30/2013 6:48:39 PM   
phoenix

 

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With mine I rested them a bit, but they were still about 30% fatigued from getting into positions. Nevertheless, they put in the attack no probs. So I doubt it's a fatigue issue.

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Post #: 11
RE: Night Attacks? - 7/1/2013 2:32:07 AM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
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I have stepped through the save - thanks for providing it. The problem was a formation lockup. The left guard was not moving forward because it deemed that it's current position would it past its next phase line. The 2nd Coy who was the task subject deemed that he couldn't go any further because it would take him too far past his left flank guard. The 2nd Coy looked good. So I delved further into the left guard and discovered an omission in the code that was failing to account for the hub to centre offset in its calc of the distance it could move.

The hub to centre distance works fine if the formation guard is a single unit, because the unit is always in the centre of the group. But where the guard is a group of units, then it may be not exactly in the centre. In this case he had a trailing flak unit that pushed the hub forward of the centre. Because we were not factoring this in his current index was deemed greater than the next phase line. This was working in most cases because phase lines are so far apart. But in an assault we keep them closer together to prevent the formation from unravelling under enemy fire - ie one group takes cover while the others charge forward.

The code now factors in this hub to centre offset and works fine. FIXED.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Arjuna -- 7/1/2013 2:35:43 AM >


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RE: Night Attacks? - 7/1/2013 2:51:35 AM   
Tzar007


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From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Well, I'm glad you were able to find the problem and fix it. It makes sense now. I have played quite extensively with this game engine (since HTTR went out, it's been like 10 years now!) and it was first time I was seeing this. As I said, even from a realism/historical standpoint, I couldn't understand why the attack was not moving.

I thought it was because it was happening at night, but I suppose this issue may have happened even in daylight.

Well, after finding a CTD related to reinforcements and now this little hiccup, I guess I should apply as a Panther tester now

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Post #: 13
RE: Night Attacks? - 7/1/2013 4:21:18 AM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
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Always welcome. Send me your contact details and a short resume with any wargame development and/or military experience you have.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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Post #: 14
RE: Night Attacks? - 7/2/2013 1:56:36 AM   
Tzar007


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Thanks Arjuna, but I was joking more than anything else! I don't think I would be a reliable tester, work and family typically get into my ability to commit to anything else seriously, including wargaming...

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Post #: 15
RE: Night Attacks? - 7/2/2013 2:22:35 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17630
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From: Canberra, Australia
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So I have called your bluff then, hey?

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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