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Late War Allied Strategy Advice

 
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Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 8:03:50 AM   
aoffen

 

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I have reached November '44 in my game with Rob (jrcar) and have finally reached the stage where I can potentially get into the Japanese industrial complex with my bombers. I have managed to successfully eliminate over 90% of the oil production from the Japanese asset base over the past 5 months but haven't touched HI, LI, Refineries or A/C & engine factories. The Japanese still have a very powerful land based air arm and an attritted but still capable naval force. I am guessing oil/fuel is running low now, but don't understand enough of the Japanese production model to work out the best priority target in these circumstances. My initial thought was to hit the aircraft factories to stop the tsunami of Japanese airframe production, but maybe attacking HI achieves the same end. Anyone who has been in a similar situation or who knows more about it than me (thats everyone) please feel free to contribute your thoughts. Looking to brainstorm with the brains trust a little if I can.

Rob - please feel free to comment and add advice. Some detail about your HI, Fuel and Oil reserves would really help the discussion :)

Cheers
Andrew
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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 9:19:21 AM   
Commander Cody


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I've heard it's better to hit aircraft engines than airframes. Also, manpower attacks (i.e. incendiaries) work pretty well, as they take out a lot of different things. Anyway, I'm no JFB so if you can get one of them to open up, you'll get better advice.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 11:54:01 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

I have reached November '44 in my game with Rob (jrcar) and have finally reached the stage where I can potentially get into the Japanese industrial complex with my bombers. I have managed to successfully eliminate over 90% of the oil production from the Japanese asset base over the past 5 months but haven't touched HI, LI, Refineries or A/C & engine factories. The Japanese still have a very powerful land based air arm and an attritted but still capable naval force. I am guessing oil/fuel is running low now, but don't understand enough of the Japanese production model to work out the best priority target in these circumstances. My initial thought was to hit the aircraft factories to stop the tsunami of Japanese airframe production, but maybe attacking HI achieves the same end. Anyone who has been in a similar situation or who knows more about it than me (thats everyone) please feel free to contribute your thoughts. Looking to brainstorm with the brains trust a little if I can.

Rob - please feel free to comment and add advice. Some detail about your HI, Fuel and Oil reserves would really help the discussion :)

Cheers
Andrew



if you can hit aircraft factories, that's the fastest way of reducing the enemy airforce because usually the Japanese have a high enough HI pool to keep on producing. But if you take out the two or three Frank factories for example, then no Franks anymore...

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 12:41:09 PM   
CowboyRonin


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If you've taken out his oil production and suspect a fuel shortage, then his HI is also shutting down. However, HI points stockpile, and he probably has a stockpile in the millions. So, hitting HI is a waste of time if you're already inducing a fuel shortage. I'm not sure how well recon is able to target exactly what engine factories are where - hitting the right ones would hurt (you can look in the aircraft description to see what engines a given plane uses), but finding them would be tricky if it doesn't tell you. Hitting LI is a waste of time - it only produces supplies, and he's probably nowhere close to low on those. The easiest way to kill LI is probably hitting Manpower and letting the fires take care of the LI.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 3:57:33 PM   
Amoral

 

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Priority 1 should be cutting off oil. That will stop the production of new HI points.
Priority 2 should be smashing aircraft factories.

As everyone has said, there is not much point smashing HI factories, if the oil is not flowing they will all soon stop working anyways.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 8:56:10 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


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I agree, if somebody hits my airframe factories as a Japanese player, i'm in trouble soon. And yes the HI's do accumulate for later usage, so no point in bombing those.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/24/2013 9:39:21 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Alternate advice here. Oil first of course. Then armament factories with nighttime Manpower to wear down the CAP and spread the love to aircraft. But kill Armament points and China is a cake-walk to reclaim.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/25/2013 12:48:10 AM   
aoffen

 

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Thanks guys. Unfortunately I don't know what Rob's HI reserves are like and he has selfishly declined to add some facts into this debate :) China is a mess for me with the Chinese reduced to 3 hexes around Chungking and starving for supplies. Unless I can drive overland to relieve the seige they are unlikely to go anywhere unless Rob lets them out.

Thinking about the advice it seems attacking HI is not going to achieve much, particularly given his oil situation. In fact it would be logical for him to switch HI off to conserve fuel for fleet ops and rely on his strategic HI reserve. Sounds like a combination of factories (airframes, engines and maybe armaments) and manpower firebombing is the way to go. Its probably a moot point in the short term as I am still some way off having fighter cover over Japan and my experience with unescorted B-29 raids into CAP has not been a happy one.

Cheers
Andrew

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/25/2013 1:08:49 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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Bomb manpower at night without fighters. Below 10,000 feet.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/25/2013 4:31:26 AM   
Numdydar

 

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If you want to understand the Japanese production better to have a better idea of what to bomb, you can always check out my Japanese Production Primer http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605 

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 12:18:51 AM   
sandlance

 

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Ive played the Downfall scenario several times as the Allies. From the Marianas hit the large manpower centers at Tokyo, Yokohama, Osaka, Nagoya at night below 10k (I use 7000ft). During the day run fighter sweep above 25k over same target. this will wear down his fighters in about 6-8wks. Also you must keep photo-recon over as many targets as possible. Once day fighters are killed then shift back to day bombing with everthing you have.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 12:29:57 AM   
DHRedge

 

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Out of curiosity, what is your launch platform? CV mostly, or do you have some bases in range.

I ask because I usually play Japan, and when I play a PvP game, I am curious about what to prepare for as far as avenues of egress used by allied advances on the Home Island.

And what range have you found to be the best range for your attacks, if you are using CVs

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 12:39:02 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

Out of curiosity, what is your launch platform? CV mostly, or do you have some bases in range.

I ask because I usually play Japan, and when I play a PvP game, I am curious about what to prepare for as far as avenues of egress used by allied advances on the Home Island.

And what range have you found to be the best range for your attacks, if you are using CVs


Once, in an AI GC, I brought the CVs into kamikaze range of the HI. I think I only lost ten in 24 hours.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 2:09:48 AM   
DHRedge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

Out of curiosity, what is your launch platform? CV mostly, or do you have some bases in range.

I ask because I usually play Japan, and when I play a PvP game, I am curious about what to prepare for as far as avenues of egress used by allied advances on the Home Island.

And what range have you found to be the best range for your attacks, if you are using CVs


Once, in an AI GC, I brought the CVs into kamikaze range of the HI. I think I only lost ten in 24 hours.


??

Could you rephrase that, it does not answer the question.
Ten what? 24 hours? You mean one turn?

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 4:18:34 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

Out of curiosity, what is your launch platform? CV mostly, or do you have some bases in range.

I ask because I usually play Japan, and when I play a PvP game, I am curious about what to prepare for as far as avenues of egress used by allied advances on the Home Island.

And what range have you found to be the best range for your attacks, if you are using CVs


Once, in an AI GC, I brought the CVs into kamikaze range of the HI. I think I only lost ten in 24 hours.


??

Could you rephrase that, it does not answer the question.
Ten what? 24 hours? You mean one turn?


Ten (10) carriers. I think the number of kamikazes was just under 1000. I had roughly 500 Hellcats on CAP and many modern, fully-upgraded AA platforms.

Do not use carriers to strat bomb the HI.

Edit: It was several years ago, so I went and found the post I did of the combat report.

Here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503498&mpage=1&key=Converting%2Cinto%2CKamikaze%2Cunit�

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/26/2013 4:27:13 AM >


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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 4:34:34 AM   
DHRedge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


Ten (10) carriers. I think the number of kamikazes was just under 1000. I had roughly 500 Hellcats on CAP and many modern, fully-upgraded AA platforms.

Do not use carriers to strat bomb the HI.

Edit: It was several years ago, so I went and found the post I did of the combat report.

Here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503498&mpage=1&key=Converting%2Cinto%2CKamikaze%2Cunit�


Thanks I will go read that

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 5:10:01 AM   
DHRedge

 

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There is a potential exploit.

Since Kamikazes will eventually attack someone.

If you have excess cargo ships or DDs that are able to draw the attacks to them.

Send them in without supply loads, to use up the Kamakazi attacks.

Then they won't have the planes in the next waves to hit carriers.

as shown in
The Road Warrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG90aqaXW1Y

Side note, one of the explanations of where songs come from,
those that make it over the river.

Thunder Dome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1KZvzXpKI

< Message edited by DHRedge -- 6/26/2013 5:18:05 AM >

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 5:16:31 AM   
Justus2


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I think cargo ships would be gamey, but DDs as forward pickets to detect/distract kamikazes would be a valid tactic (my personal opinion, from a historical perspective, not an exploit per se). They certainly were used in that role IRL.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/26/2013 5:23:22 AM   
DHRedge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justus2

I think cargo ships would be gamey, but DDs as forward pickets to detect/distract kamikazes would be a valid tactic (my personal opinion, from a historical perspective, not an exploit per se). They certainly were used in that role IRL.


Thinking about it, not sure if it would be gamey or not, although there could be a way to set Kamikaze only attack, then have some constraints on some page, only if CV detected, only if some amount of Capital ships detected, or only if anphib transports spotted, or something like that.

The Japan player really couldn't have them off till needed, since it has to occur on same turn as detection occurs.
And any small waves would be taken out by cap.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/27/2013 12:07:48 AM   
sandlance

 

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The Key to this is gain air-superiority/parity over the home islands before you move CV into range of Kamikazes. As the Allied player you will need Iwo and Okinawa for land based fighter sweeps over the Home Islands. From Okinawa use your B-25's and A-26's to nuetrilize the Kyushu airfields.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/27/2013 12:42:54 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

The Key to this is gain air-superiority/parity over the home islands before you move CV into range of Kamikazes. As the Allied player you will need Iwo and Okinawa for land based fighter sweeps over the Home Islands. From Okinawa use your B-25's and A-26's to nuetrilize the Kyushu airfields.


Nice theory. But in most PBEM late-war games Japan has thousands of fighters stockpiled. It doesn't work as in history.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/27/2013 12:44:33 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

The Key to this is gain air-superiority/parity over the home islands before you move CV into range of Kamikazes. As the Allied player you will need Iwo and Okinawa for land based fighter sweeps over the Home Islands. From Okinawa use your B-25's and A-26's to nuetrilize the Kyushu airfields.


Nice theory. But in most PBEM late-war games Japan has thousands of fighters stockpiled. It doesn't work as in history.

+1

Many, many thousands.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/27/2013 1:35:16 AM   
topeverest

 

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Agree. If you are allied in PBEM, expect the empire to have many airframes and kami's. dont be in a rush. Unless you are in timed game, you can afford to wait. Get Okinawa and Taiwan by crawling up from Luzon. Choke off all sea booty. I generally wait on Iwo until after Okinawa or not do it at all, as you are more prone to sudden counterpulse without the benefit of land based support. From Okinawa, you have access to smash the southern islands with non 4E air. blanket subs in yellow sea and around Japan.

As long as you don't try to be John Wayne and make a long leap, you will be fine. And I like going for Oil, then refinery where it makes sense, the theory being killing multiple birds with one stone. The economy for sure will grind to a halt. Makes the most sense to concentrate your attacks in whatever you choose. Don't recommend doing a spread approach.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/27/2013 6:47:36 PM   
inqistor


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Japan may be short on Vehicle Points, and that is it. You can try to destroy Naval Production, but most players do not produce much ships at this stage (but if they do, they are short in this area).

You can try new plane factories (which just entered production), and engines, but everything which is produced for some time have most probably hundreds pieces already in reserve.

So... your best bet is manpower, and resulting fires from this. Preferably at cities with lots of manpower, and factories.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/28/2013 12:09:05 AM   
sandlance

 

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I havn't played PBEM so I'm not sure about this. IJN/IJAF may have lots of stockpiled aircraft but what about pilots? This should be a very finite resource at this time in the war. Also the Japanese Econ gives me headaches just thinking abot it.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/28/2013 2:20:46 AM   
CowboyRonin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

I havn't played PBEM so I'm not sure about this. IJN/IJAF may have lots of stockpiled aircraft but what about pilots? This should be a very finite resource at this time in the war. Also the Japanese Econ gives me headaches just thinking abot it.

If you think so (in the hands of a competent player), read Captain Cruft's Hive AAR. I'm not sure how many trained aviators he has available (and I mean well-trained, based on the AAR), but a very high number would not surprise me. If you're looking for things to be concerned about as a late-war Allied player, read that AAR.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/28/2013 4:49:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CowboyRonin


quote:

ORIGINAL: sandlance

I havn't played PBEM so I'm not sure about this. IJN/IJAF may have lots of stockpiled aircraft but what about pilots? This should be a very finite resource at this time in the war. Also the Japanese Econ gives me headaches just thinking abot it.

If you think so (in the hands of a competent player), read Captain Cruft's Hive AAR. I'm not sure how many trained aviators he has available (and I mean well-trained, based on the AAR), but a very high number would not surprise me. If you're looking for things to be concerned about as a late-war Allied player, read that AAR.


And you don't need well-trained pilots in kamis. Just a lot of them.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 6/29/2013 9:51:45 AM   
aoffen

 

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I must admit to the Kami fear myself. An early encounter was very painful and I am reluctant to move now without the protection of an overwhelming air umbrella. So far so good. Fortunately the late war USN can throw out a CAP that makes 1942 KB look like a joke. You need it though with hundreds of Franks escorting in hundreds of Kami's and Peggy TB's with well trained pilots to burn. So far experience says you can go anywhere, but only very carefully and only one place at a time. Sticking your neck out in the face of LBA this strong is a suicide mission....well very ill advised anyway.

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RE: Late War Allied Strategy Advice - 7/17/2013 8:23:07 PM   
mattep74

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: DHRedge

Out of curiosity, what is your launch platform? CV mostly, or do you have some bases in range.

I ask because I usually play Japan, and when I play a PvP game, I am curious about what to prepare for as far as avenues of egress used by allied advances on the Home Island.

And what range have you found to be the best range for your attacks, if you are using CVs


Once, in an AI GC, I brought the CVs into kamikaze range of the HI. I think I only lost ten in 24 hours.


??

Could you rephrase that, it does not answer the question.
Ten what? 24 hours? You mean one turn?


Ten (10) carriers. I think the number of kamikazes was just under 1000. I had roughly 500 Hellcats on CAP and many modern, fully-upgraded AA platforms.

Do not use carriers to strat bomb the HI.

Edit: It was several years ago, so I went and found the post I did of the combat report.

Here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503498&mpage=1&key=Converting%2Cinto%2CKamikaze%2Cunit?


I have played Downfall a lot and to avoid loosing the CVs then do as i usually do:
5-10 CV, CVL, CVE in a taskforce
a few BB, CL, CLAA to get AA
Rest of the 25 ship limit DD only to take care of SS.

You have enough for 2-3 taskforces from Guam and Peleleiu each. Have one as lead and have it followed by the others. Remove ALL tropedoplanes and dive bombers and take on fighters. Place them 5-10 hexes north and a few hexes west of Iwo. Have all fighters on Iwo escort them. Watch as the japanese airforce comes to visit and be blown out of the sky. If you are unlucky then you only down 2-300 aircrafts in a two day turn, if you are lucky the japanese might loose 800-1000 planes while you loose less than 100 in one turn. The worst thing i experienced was a bomb on a CV that caused minor damage.

I have all fighters on the CV at 80-90 CAP and 10 - 20 rest. The Iwo fighters at 10 CAP, 60 LCAP, 30 rest.

When your fighters on the CVs gett tired after a few turns have the taskforces return to their bases and load the invsionforce you have in Manilla and attack. Just remember to bring replenishment for the invasionforce. Also bring the CV force again and have it stay 1 hex away. For some reason Kamikaze rather attack CV taskforces than invasionforces. Last time i invaded the japanese lost 1800 planes in the first two days of the invasion and the rest of the time was no threat.

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