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Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS

 
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Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 12:55:40 PM   
seille

 

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Since a few days i face a problem with my fight in China.

I had a couple of units in a pocket since more than two months. The chinese tried a river crossing attack into
my Hex south of the river two months ago which failed. I closed their backdor by a tank regiment and kept the pocket closed
for more than 60 days.

Now i wanted to replace the tank unit by a infantry unit. My timing wans´t good. The tank unit left their hex one turn later with
the infantry still on it´s way into their garrison position. How in the hell i could know that in the SAME turn the tanks left the hex the chinese,
which must have been in terrible shape, follow them across the river generating sweet messages "unit xy RETREATS towards Kweiyang".

How can they go tank speed ??? How can they enter the hex west of that crossing a river into a rough forrest hex only 2 days later ?
What is this ?? Why don´t we beam them to Chungking instead ?

Some pictures attached showing the drama.

Would be nice if the Devs could look at this. Hard to believe that this is wad. Many thanks !





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by seille -- 6/23/2013 12:58:22 PM >
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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 1:03:07 PM   
seille

 

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Ah just in case please don´t tell me how hexsides work. I know it and i know i opened the backdor for that chinese retreat.
My problem is just the speed of the chinese movement especially with the bad shape of the fleeing units.
With normal movement rules my infantry unit would have been there in time to close the retreat path again.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 3:33:13 PM   
Justus2


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From what I have seen, retreat does not follow the 'x miles/day' rules, it always moves a full hex with each retreat. As soon as the unit had the opening, I believe the retreat code pushed it out.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 3:46:41 PM   
seille

 

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Yes, but retreat without fighting ?

It was more a surprising and ultrafast movement of units in very bad shape.
It should be simply impossible with the current rules.

Lol, the units can barely walk after two months with no supply and now they run away like Usain Bolt.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 5:08:26 PM   
moonraker


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In my experience Chinese units will move whether there's supplies in a hex or not. China is probably the worst theatre for supply movement in the game, especially if you lose the Rangoon - Lashio rail route early on

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 5:14:28 PM   
seille

 

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Yes, but again, it is no "normal" movement when they jump out of the hex within ONE turn without beeing forced to by fighting.
Must be a new thing implemented by one of the betas. Have to wait what MichaelM says here.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/23/2013 5:47:51 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

Yes, but again, it is no "normal" movement when they jump out of the hex within ONE turn without beeing forced to by fighting.
Must be a new thing implemented by one of the betas. Have to wait what MichaelM says here.


You did bomb them, right? If they went to Disorg status I think the retreat code works there.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/24/2013 12:17:28 AM   
DHRedge

 

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Most movement is people stopping 3 times a day for meals, and if infantry marching in good order, with scouting and staying in formations.
Even mechanized units don't move full speed. If through inhospitable terrain.
And both Infantry and Mechanized units think about supply while moving, maybe even blazing and creating trails for good future supply egress.

When people are retreating, think of it as they are running every direction into houses, jungle, anywhere, at full speed, dropping gear and not stopping day or night.

Then they are picked up again by recon 40 miles away trying to reform into a new unit. They are dispersed, think of that as the units trickling into the hex. And the reason they can move to the other hex, is anyone in your current hex is running fast through any terrain, farm or village area, in any direction, they simply are not standing against anyone in the hex retreated from, so they should be able to retreat to a new hex, and should not be displayed in the hex they retreated out of.

If they were at full strength, that would be a bug. However basically the commander set up a rally point 40 miles away with a few supply units and that is the new hex they moved into.




Thats how I think of it to explain the mechanisms, retreating people disperse and run really fast compared to people doing some combat movement in any direction.




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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/24/2013 12:34:22 AM   
DHRedge

 

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The thing I think about on movement, is something they modeled with combat movement and normal movement.

The difference between slowly moving through hostile territory and marching through trails in safe sectors is significant. Although I not sure if it is modeled in the game.

I would abstract that by having moving across controlled hex into friendly hexes side at 2x or 3x speed, and slower movement when moving across uncontrolled hex sides.
Then again hex sides would have to be set as controlled if a unit occupied unopposed hexes on both sides of a hex side.
(possibly requiring the hex sides on both sides of the move also to be controlled, and auto controlling any hex side that has units unopposed on both sides of the hex sides)

The move and combat, I understand the intent, to create two movement speeds, one as scouting and guys on point inching forward, and the other walking on roads in formation, although I think that could be abstracted, since switching from move to combat is many mouse clicks, and there is no situation a person would choose 'move' to enter combat, and no situation a person would choose, combat move when there is no enemies around in controlled territory. (paratroopers or anphib landing, might be an exception, but that is a special case, where paratroopers should get a little surprise bonus on a unit in back lines if landing there, and people would be moving as if not on a front line till some landing occurred.).

Or even if you order 'move speed' into an area, as soon as the first shot is fired, everyone will be moving combat speed anyways regardless of orders. I don't think there are many cases of double time forced marches into combat that would leave units vulnerable.

Instead of move and combat, there could be a double time movement option that would effect morale and dispersion, although I don't think it would be used to enter combat that often.

< Message edited by DHRedge -- 6/24/2013 12:40:46 AM >

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 6/24/2013 12:52:47 PM   
seille

 

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@Bullwinkle58
Yes, the troops were at "disorg".

Is this something like a permanent retreat status were normal movement rules not longer work ?
If yes, is this a new feature added by the beta patch or is this new ?

Had hoped MichaelM would enlighten me.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 7/7/2013 10:53:03 AM   
michaelm


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I have been busy at work so have not had much time to investigate things.
Sorry that this slipped past. I did see original request from 23 June, but lost sight of it due to due to the extra workload I have had last few weeks. No real time for gaming or coding.

< Message edited by michaelm -- 7/7/2013 11:57:09 AM >


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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 7/8/2013 10:11:15 AM   
michaelm


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Seille, Did you send me a save for this??
I am hoping it was the same isolated/no supply issue that forced the un-intentional retreat.

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RE: Strange retreats in China - NO TAURUS - 7/8/2013 10:22:58 AM   
seille

 

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No, did not send a savegame. Thought the screenshots and what i wrote would be enough.

All i can say is the units were out of supply and at "disorg" since encircled since weeks.
Then i opened one hexside for them and in the same turn my guarding unit left that hexside
the chinese units started fleeing out of the hex without any orders creating these messeges:
"unit xx retreats towards Kweiyang"

For me this seem to be the same issue. In my case the units has been encircled the whole time,
so couldn´t go away. But as soon as they had a possible retreat path the new "let´s run where the supply is"-routine did their job.

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