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Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil)

 
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Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/23/2013 1:10:25 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2986
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
After my last few games as German ended before the end of Summer 41 I decided to adopt a wait and see attitude for this game with Kamil. Well as it turns out he will survive Barbarossa so I will start an AAR from T16. I will write a summary of events up to T16 a bit later. For now here are our HR.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alt 41CG scenario
Server game
Locked HQ Support Axis/ Unlocked Soviet
Full FOW
Non Random Weather

House Rules
No Para drops to break pockets at anytime in the game. No Para missions at all by the Soviets until the first
Blizzard.

No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1).

No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit

No attacks on partisans: they are to be reduced buy movement into or within their ZOC

Only 3 air attacks on city/ports per city per turn.

Reserves:
German: Only 4 CP for Corp and 6 CP for Armies/AG can be placed in Reserve

Soviet: Prior to Sept 1941: Only 2 CP for Corp and 4 CP for Armies/Fronts
From Sept 41 on: 6 for Armies/Fronts

Also no units under Stavka or OKH can be placed in reserve.
And all units placed in Reserve must be within 5 hexes of their HQ.

The German player is only allowed to disband 3 Corp HQ at most during the game. Soviet disbandments are not limited.

Any single Leader can only be reassigned manually once per turn.

Additional Auto VC

If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at the end of 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory.

If the Soviet player holds Pskov, Smolensk, Bryansk,
Kharkov and Stalino concurrently at anytime in 1942 he wins an Auto Victory

Plus Sudden Death VC used from the SD GC in Lost Battles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will only be the second time I have played as German beyond T13 (SmokinDave took me to T40). So this is essentially new ground for me. But I have 35 years of boardgaming pedigree behind me. Anyway I believe the bear has been mortally wounded ‘with a thousand cuts’ and will bleed out in late 42. But more on that later.

Stay tuned.


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Post #: 1
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/23/2013 10:08:28 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2986
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
T1 to T15 Summary.

The game started with a new Southern Opening. Strangely very similar to Sappers new strategy. On my part this involved committing virtually all of PzGp 2 to the South. IIRC only 3 Pz/Mot xx of PzGp 2 went towards Minsk. I also sent 2 ID and a SS Mot xx from AGN to Rumania for a surprise attack from there on T2. So PzGp 2 and PzGp 1 drove east from the border and only went as far south as Proskurov. This ensured that the Russians on the Rumanian border would remain fixed on T1. On T2 both PzGp drove south and linked with the units attacking from the Rumanian border. Result = lots of extra Soviet POW. However my AGN pockets were leaky and Kamil broke some of them. AGC pockets managed to hold. If I do this opening again it will need some refinement. But I plan to use it as chip on the HR bargaining table next time round.

Pretty much from T3 on the Soviets have run run run. Way too far IMO. Kamil has only offered serious resistance at Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov. The rest of the country has been defenceless, only token resistance at best offered. Leningrad was abandoned around T12, another serious mistake IMO. FWIW when a player leaves vast swaths of territory undefended it only takes a few Mot INF xx (easily fuelled from the air) to cut out large tracts of territory. My advances between Tula and Rostov only limited by the range of my flying fuel cans. The results may seem unreal but if no resistance is met what do you expect?

From around T14 on around 80% of the Red Army has been deployed within 15 hexes of Moscow. The other 20% defending Rostov. I have tried to outflank Moscow from both north and south but with so many Reds there in lvl 3 forts behind major rivers it has proved very difficult to break thru. When I do cross a river the bridgehead has been crushed. 3 xx in a hex are no chance against these super strong Soviet units. I don’t think Kamil has failed in a major attack yet.

After Leningrad was abandoned to its fate I have railed as fast as possible 4th PzGp and 16th Army for a direct assault on Moscow. But I think my chances are slim at this point.

In the south I have been banging away for 3 or 4 turns now but poor supply has made any progress against the defences very difficult. I have twice been thrown back across the river adjacent to Rostov. I have begun assaulting the city directly. But so far no luck. I made a drive to Stalingrad to thin his defences along the Don and this worked a treat as he abandoned the river to the east of Rostov and we have crossed in force. There is still a good chance I can take Rostov prior to the blizzard.

Kamil almost resigned around T9 IIRC but has hung in there and now I face the prospect of a blizzard against a fairly strong Red Army. He has preserved his Army quite well and has only lost 2.3 million men at end T15. But his factory losses I believe are fatal. 101 Arm captured and in his defence of Moscow I reckon he has sacrificed twice as much manpower in undefended territory he has given up. His rail network between Tula and Rostov is totally trashed as far east as Penza and this will tell on him come 42.

As I said above he has minimised his losses in men and material but he has bought that at a cost in his chances in 42. He will face a serious shortage in Armaments and Manpower from 42 on.

I feel I have a very strong chance of winning the game in summer 42 as long as I don’t screw up the blizzard.

Meanwhile I am pushing as hard as possible for Moscow and Rostov. But I may fall just short of Moscow. Hopefully I will get Rostov. Full maps and data at end T16.


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(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 2
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/23/2013 1:35:16 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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Thanks for your perspective. I've learned a lot by watching your AAR's (yours or your opponents). Looks like this is going to be a good game with an exciting 42 season.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 3
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/27/2013 11:25:41 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2986
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
End Axis T16 (2nd Oct 1941, Clear)

AGN

The battle for Leningrad is drawing to a close. The last hex of the city should be taken next turn and then 18th Army will be assigned a new mission. Not sure what yet. Possibly sent to shore up the line between the Volga/Rybinsk Reserve or thrown in to the Moscow meat grinder. Meanwhile the Finns charge towards Cherepovets.

AGC

The battle for Moscow continues. Where finesse has failed we now turn to brute force. The heaviest fighting of the war has begun just to the south of Moscow. The full weight of 16th Army and 4th Pz GP reinforced with 2nd and 5th Pz are proving an unstoppable sledgehammer so far. The drive towards Murom continues and the encirclement of Penza is completed. It seems since the crossing of the Dneipr that two lone Mot xx have conquered more of Russia than the rest of the entire Wehrmacht. The drive to Yaroslavl has hit a brick wall. The operation is called off for now. The Mech units are diverted elsewhere. But will remain within striking distance if the Reds denude the line.

AGS

In the south a stunning development. The Reds have abandoned Rostov! We are delighted. It seems whenever the Reds are faced with a potential turning point they blink. The same thing happened in front of Tula and Leningrad. The Reds simply refuse to risk units to save cities, ground or gain time, even at this late stage of the summer. So AGS is now faced with the decision, turn south or head east to Stalingrad. In the end the decision is easy. We turn south.

----------------------------------------------------------

Armaments captured now totals 106 pts. These losses coupled with all the evacuations means the Reds are only producing around 45K of arm per turn. Barely enough to cover turn to turn losses and Ammo conversions. Not to mention equip new formations. I am encountering numerous shell formations that often rout on contact or shatter/rout with the first defeat.

Overall I am very happy with the situation. I would like to have inflicted another 500K of loses but he just hasn't risked anything. His refusal to fight has cost him the game though IMO. I can't see how he will survive 1942 with such a weakened base to work from. A miracle blizzard could redress the situation. I will be wary of that though.

Our SD HR states if the Axis control all of Leningrad, Moscow, Vorenezh and Rostov at the end of 1941 then they win. I need Moscow to win the game. There is a slim chance I could do this, but its unlikely.





Attachment (1)

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:16:56 AM   
Pelton


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Interesting game very much like my game vs Huge. Almost a carbon copy, so close to Moscow yet so far away.


South:You will be surprised at how quickly that space south of the Oka will be lost and back to Stalino, Kursk ect because of Cav units. The killer in south is the standard morale lose per turn + a morale hit for being out of supply. Any units in that area will lose close to 20 morale not counting combat. So 80 is 60 by snow. That is why I start running before blizzard in no mans land. You flipped the manpower get to hell out before blizzard.

North: of Oka I would digging asap before its to late. Even double stacked hexes will get crushed withen 2 turns and you be routed. SHC will be huge and very powerful Dec 1st.

By spring SHC will be 7 to 8 million strong with good morale so forget a cake walk come summer of 1942.

Unless you win out right by taking Moscow your looking at a 25% GHC win/50% draw/25% SHC win.

Fuel exploits will not help you come summer 42, your in for a very long fight.

My last 4 games followed this very same 1941 basic out come.

Everything falls other then Moscow + 2.75 million to 3.75 million in SHC losses. Summer 1942 1000+ AP's worth of SHC units pocketed. All 4 ended in draws.

Also check out Bomass and sappers games. 1941 was same as my games and your, but I played for a draw and got them.

They played to win and lost miserably in 1942 resigning.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2013 12:17:26 AM >


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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:27:40 AM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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IDK, but I think Michael's assessment is a little closer. I know you have more exp than him at long games but Kamil's armaments and manpower have got to be low. Yes Michael will lose a lot of ground during Blizzard but he has more than enough to give. I also don't see him having a 7 million army by Spring...not possible IMO. In my game during A-Game it took until late 42 for him to go past 6 million and Kamil has lost a lot more cities and factories than A-Game did. I'm kind of rooting for Kamil (I like underdogs) but I'm not very confident he will live to see a draw.

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Post #: 6
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:29:31 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2986
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
He won't have 7 million men. He does not have the manpower to acheive that, nor the Arm. And I will fight in the blizzard where I can. I will win in 1942 by knockout or 260 VP. We shall see

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Post #: 7
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:36:07 AM   
Pelton


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I looked over my list of 26 games checking arm pt loses.

In my loses vs Kamil he lost 88 arm pts, TDV 118 and Hoooper 74.

The loss of 106 pts will hurt Kamil in 42, but will not be a factor by October 42.

Bomass and sapper made huge mistakes, giving SHC easy targets to build morale and splitting up their panzer thrusts in 1942. You need to keep them with in a 300 mile front. I run during blizzard to deny SHC morale and keep mine.

Kamil is very skilled at the game from 42-45.

1942 is NOTHING like 41 and very few GHC players have any skill at it.

1. Oka north dig in. Use the Oka as your flank for southern attacks. This is a key many GHC players over look and most skilled SHC players try to hold hexes south of Oka.
2. Work on getting small solid pockets during summer, you need to pocket 100 divisions min. You might get a chance at a large one come late summer and a shot at Moscow.

Your panzer forses will melt away very quickly that's why you need atleast 9 90ish morale infantry divisions and keep panzers in a huge ball not split up like Bomass and sapper.



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WitE Development 1.06 to present

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:39:56 AM   
Pelton


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he will have 6 million by turn 30.

Pelton vs Huge
Turn 30
German Arm PTs in pool= 160,000
German Manpower in pool= 415,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 75,000 Total dead: 2,893,000
Russian OOB: 6,224,000
A net gain of: 15,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 2,873,000
GHC net OOB change: -26 ,000
GHC Losses this turn: 56,000 Total Dead: 1,027,000

7.2 million ish by turn 50

I played 15 games into 1942+ he will easly have 7 million

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2013 12:42:10 AM >


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WitE-----32-5-9
GHC WitW-15-1-0

Former WitW Beta-tester and Dev
WitE Development 1.06 to present

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:41:12 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2986
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
I suspect your earlier games were when the Arm mulitplier was 200 42-45. Its only 130 now.

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Post #: 10
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:42:51 AM   
Pelton


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The last 4 are 1.06.13 +

Pelton vs Brian

Turn 52 VP Total= 214

Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 125
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp: 1
Divisions: 28
Brigades: 22
SU: 12
AP total: 520
Russian losses this turn: 148,000 Total dead: 5,452,000
Russian OOB: 5,909,000
A net gain of: 41,000
Russian units currently in a pocket: 20
GHC OOB: 3,468,000
GHC net OOB change: 71,000

Game still was headed for a draw dispite huge losses.

Pelton vs Bobo

Turn 50 VP Total= 198

Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 60
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions: 87
Brigades: 5
SU: 8
AP total: 903
Russian losses this turn: - 220,000 Total dead: 4,880,000
Russian OOB: 6,210,000
A net gain of: -137,000
Russian units currently in a pocket: 16
GHC OOB: 3,303,000
GHC net OOB change: -13,000

Pelton vs Huge


Turn 51 VP Total= 220

Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 145
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942
Corp:
Divisions: 27
Brigades: 6
SU: 2
AP total: 302
Russian losses this turn: 53,000 Total dead: 3,867,000
Russian OOB: 7,264,000
A net gain of: 46,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 32
GHC OOB: 3,506,000
GHC net OOB change: 52,000

I was in best shape vs Huge because of morale. Not sure if you been farming it hard or not.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2013 12:50:27 AM >


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Former WitW Beta-tester and Dev
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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 12:58:26 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2986
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
I am entirely confident of victory in 1942. At worst I will win a SD Victory in April 1944. There is no way he will be able to recoup the required VP to avoid the SD check in April 1944. This is why I like the SD game. Running is ulitimately punished with a loss of the game.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 1:03:46 AM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I am entirely confident of victory in 1942. At worst I will win a SD Victory in April 1944. There is no way he will be able to recoup the required VP to avoid the SD check in April 1944. This is why I like the SD game. Running is ulitimately punished with a loss of the game.


True, my way of playing is shooting for that target in 1944 instead of draws. We did not have SD when I started the last 4. I had 2 easy wins and 2 draws instaed of 4 draws.

You can get the wins if you play for them and don't screw up in blizzard ( infantry morale tanking) or do the same bone headed 1942 offensives Bomazz and sapper did.

I am rooting for MT this game, why?

Because if you look at the AAR's post 1.06.13 the GHC is losing almost all of them.

MT has been winning (5), I have been getting draws (4) and I believe all the rest of the GHC players (other then 1 terje439) are losing badly. So the under dog is always GHC

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2013 1:11:59 AM >


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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 1:19:41 AM   
Pelton


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If you do not withdraw during the blizzard you win lose the game.

You have been a blow hard about others with drawing 1-2 hexes a turn during blizzard.

Time to put up or and admit your wrong.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2013 1:29:15 AM >


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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 1:19:59 AM   
OddBall2

 

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Very interesting, Michael T could you add the rail hex button to your next post. Be interesting to see. Oh and I have decided I have a great idea. MT & Pelton should team up and play the PRO'S as the Germans when the HITMAN game is over. If anyone could ever beat the PROS it would be you two. Y'all may not get along when you play against each other but together you would be unstoppable. You have to make an AAR out of it and drop some crumbs so us newbies could learn from it.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 1:27:09 AM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OddBall2

Very interesting, Michael T could you add the rail hex button to your next post. Be interesting to see. Oh and I have decided I have a great idea. MT & Pelton should team up and play the PRO'S as the Germans when the HITMAN game is over. If anyone could ever beat the PROS it would be you two. Y'all may not get along when you play against each other but together you would be unstoppable. You have to make an AAR out of it and drop some crumbs so us newbies could learn from it.


We only do server games and we kill each other by turn 5.

Ok I will shut my hole it is your thread.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2013 1:30:31 AM >


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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 6/28/2013 2:10:44 AM   
OddBall2

 

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LOL I did write something about "without killing each other" but gave it till turn 10. Then deleted it. I would still love to see it. It would be world class.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 17
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/2/2013 9:39:36 AM   
Pelton


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MT how far and fast are you going to run during blizzard?

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Post #: 18
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 1:13:42 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
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Unfortunately a RL situation has developed for me that has drastically diminished my available spare time. The combination of work, children and a marriage have always made committment to WITE difficult for me. I have informed Kamil I am unable to complete the game. It's very disappointing as I was really looking forward to a 1942 summer.

I think this is my last WITE game. I hope things will be back to normal for a return to serious PC gaming when WITW comes along. And I look forward to WITE 2.0. I just don't have the time right now in the short to medium term to continue :(

I have pretty much played nothing else for the past 2.5 years (except for my beloved boardgames :) ). Its been fun. Good hunting to you all.


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Post #: 19
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 4:54:56 AM   
**budd**


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too bad....I don't own or play the game..it's just to much of a monster for me. I've always followed and enjoyed your AAR's. I can appreciate the time it takes to play the game well and your efforts to make the game better. Hope things slow down for you sometime and you get time in the future to enjoy your hobby.

take care
budd

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I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 20
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 9:15:58 AM   
Pelton


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I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.

You will be missed by many here.

I personally will miss your out side the box thinking that is very hard to find these days.

Take care and God bless.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/3/2013 9:16:12 AM >


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Former WitW Beta-tester and Dev
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Post #: 21
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 10:30:03 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
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Thanks guys. It is appreciated. But family must come first :)

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Post #: 22
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 11:02:05 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Understood and good luck. Hope to see you back in the future.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 12:36:29 PM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.

You will be missed by many here.

I personally will miss your out side the box thinking that is very hard to find these days.

Take care and God bless.


+1
It has always been a pleasure reading your comments & AAR's its just a shame that I never got round to playing against you (I think it would have been fun) Maybe when WITE 2.0 comes out & your situation improves we might get something arranged.
Best wishes to you & yours
Manstein63

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Post #: 24
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 12:52:52 PM   
Balou


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Good luck. And thank you for sharing your expertise.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/3/2013 10:48:54 PM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
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My situation has had some sudden and unexpected relief. Kamil has kindly agreed to play on at a much reduced turn rate. I will update this AAR when I can but it may not be as regular as previous AAR's.

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RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/4/2013 1:51:16 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
In answer to your question Pelton I am unsure at this point. My instinct is to try an fight in front of Moscow. And in a 'normal' situation I would advocate that. By normal I mean that the Soviet Army is spread out more across the front. But Kamil has ~80% of his Army in the vicintiy of Moscow. My original plan was to run south of Kaluga and hold north of it. But the dispostion of the Red Army (its like a huge blob around Moscow) has me thinking perhaps I should at least run in December right across the front.


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(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 27
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/4/2013 12:37:18 PM   
Pelton


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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

In answer to your question Pelton I am unsure at this point. My instinct is to try an fight in front of Moscow. And in a 'normal' situation I would advocate that. By normal I mean that the Soviet Army is spread out more across the front. But Kamil has ~80% of his Army in the vicintiy of Moscow. My original plan was to run south of Kaluga and hold north of it. But the dispostion of the Red Army (its like a huge blob around Moscow) has me thinking perhaps I should at least run in December right across the front.



Yes it is wise to with draw ( Germans never run :)) at least during December and then try in areas to hold in January. The area where there is allot of cav units it might be nessary to with draw into February.

Family does come first, last summer I had to take a 4 month break and even now I am down to 1 game at a time and not my standard 4-5.

Very nice to at least have you around even on a limited basis for now.

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(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 28
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/5/2013 9:35:46 PM   
juret

 

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i always read MT threads also.

i hope everything is well and and send u best wishes from my cabin in the countryside of sweden :)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 29
RE: Hell bent on Lebensraum III (no Kamil) - 7/6/2013 12:21:45 AM   
Pelton


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZJw0aKzEEs&feature=related

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Former WitW Beta-tester and Dev
WitE Development 1.06 to present

(in reply to juret)
Post #: 30
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