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Support unit availability - 6/16/2013 11:23:43 AM   
coolts


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Can someone remind me at which HQ level SU's are available to axis Corps?

I have switched off the automatic SU system and want to use OKH as a clearing house for all SU's.

Can any German corps HQ access SU's at OKH level? It seems inconsistent.

7.5.2.2. SU to CU Attachment Restrictions
There is no range limitation to the transfer of support unit attachments; however, combat units must be in supply in order to transfer support units. Changing support unit attachments may require the expenditure of admin points (12.2.3).


This would seem to state that there are no limits apart form AP.

7.6.3. Attachment of Support Units to Headquarter Units
Support unit attachments can be transferred between headquarters units manually during the action phase and automatically during the logistics phase. Support units attached to combat units and town, city or urban hexes can be manually transferred back to headquarters units during the action phase. There is no range limitation to the transfer of support unit attachments; however, headquarters units must be in supply in order to transfer support units.


And that the HQ is in supply of course.

However, I remember way back that some people advocated OKH "touring the front" to distribute SU manually. This would suggest range limits, or at least higher AP cost based on range.

< Message edited by coolts -- 6/16/2013 12:09:57 PM >


_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix
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RE: Support unit availability - 6/16/2013 12:51:46 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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If I understand your question correctly your asking if Axis Corps HQ can access SU's that are assigned to OKH? If thats your question then yes. I use OKH as a holding ground for a lot of the heavier artillery so it doesn't get damaged moving around. The main limitation is range. Sometimes you'll have to move OKH close to the HQ's your wanting to transfer to or it won't show up as a possible candidate.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/16/2013 3:40:17 PM   
rrbill

 

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Ahhh... range limitation. That's just the point, rule book says "no range limitation" at two places, but agree that there is such.

Personal preference is to give every corps HQ 3 arty and some AA, and I try to get maneuver units to divisions. Never know where the point of action will be.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/16/2013 7:56:57 PM   
Tuhhodge

 

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I am in a similar position, being about to start my first AXIS campaign after carefully looking through my available forces.

I read a lot of people having preferences as to the number and types of SUs attached to Corps or even individual Divisions. I would also like to manually assign SUs and thought I could start out by re-assigning all SUs to OKH. But wouldn't that be impossible because of the AP costs of assigning SUs?

Or have I misunderstood the system?

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/16/2013 8:52:39 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuhhodge

I am in a similar position, being about to start my first AXIS campaign after carefully looking through my available forces.

I read a lot of people having preferences as to the number and types of SUs attached to Corps or even individual Divisions. I would also like to manually assign SUs and thought I could start out by re-assigning all SUs to OKH. But wouldn't that be impossible because of the AP costs of assigning SUs?

Or have I misunderstood the system?


If HQ's are unlocked than you can set support level to 0 on everything except OKH and it will send all SU's to OKH. Reassigning them is a bit clumsy but it works in basically the same way.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/16/2013 10:56:04 PM   
Tuhhodge

 

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How long does this process take? I wouldn't want to start Barbarossa without SUs where you need them?

Do these SUs physically move across the map?

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 1:48:26 AM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuhhodge

How long does this process take? I wouldn't want to start Barbarossa without SUs where you need them?

Do these SUs physically move across the map?


No they are not represented visually. It takes 1 turn to move them to OKH and then 1 turn to move them back. Mass movements of SU's are generally saved for mud seasons or maybe right before blizzard to spare some of the TOE damage.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 8:01:43 AM   
Tuhhodge

 

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Thanks Disgruntled Veteran. I know they're not represented by counters; as you guessed, I was thinking about distances between current HQ and the OKH or new HQ. I suppose, with 1 week turns, it is a reasonably realistic rule to require a fortnight for them to pack up, move up to a few hundred miles, and then integrate with another unit.


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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 10:10:39 AM   
Balou


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Remember: the whole automatic transfer procedure - while you fiddle around with support level changes - doesn't work for pioneers. You have to move them manually.

(in reply to coolts)
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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 10:40:04 AM   
coolts


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

The main limitation is range. Sometimes you'll have to move OKH close to the HQ's your wanting to transfer to or it won't show up as a possible candidate.


This is what I was worried about. Having OKH as a mobile shop distributing SU's is a royal pain in the arse. Still, no point complaining, better get clicking...... ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Ahhh... range limitation. That's just the point, rule book says "no range limitation" at two places, but agree that there is such.


When the manual says so and experience says "no", confusion and frustration abound. Lets hope for a more elegant system in WitW eh? At least let me build my own damn SU's if the other side can?

< Message edited by coolts -- 6/17/2013 10:53:41 AM >


_____________________________

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 10:44:03 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coolts
Still, no point complaining, better get clicking...... ;)


Exactly, the pain in the wrist is soon just a memory.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 2:54:23 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Which is why I just set it on auto and let the system figure it out lol.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 4:39:11 PM   
coolts


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13 SU's in some Corps and 0 in others, and everything in between.

No, the auto method is useless.




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< Message edited by coolts -- 6/17/2013 4:47:02 PM >


_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 7:00:07 PM   
Balou


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You empty these overloaded Corps either at the cost of 1AP per SU (manually) or for free if done "automated" according to pompack or others.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/17/2013 10:32:55 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

You empty these overloaded Corps either at the cost of 1AP per SU (manually) or for free if done "automated" according to pompack or others.



The automated system is pretty useful for a lot of SU transfers. The only thing I don't like about it that it doesn't discriminate between artillery size (I think). I like to keep all the huge expensive guns in OKH and distribute them only when there is going to be an assault on a heavily fortified hex. Otherwise, I find the automated system quite helpful and can save dozens of AP points. Still, I'm kind of a stickler for details and I prefer the manual just for the absolute control this dictator demands :-)

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/18/2013 11:49:37 AM   
coolts


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This is going back to the old arguments which i feel originated with an obscurity in the manual;

7.6.3.2.........The level setting indicates the number of each type of support unit that the computer will attempt to provide to that particular headquarters unit, based on availability. For example, if the player sets "Support Level" to 3 the computer would attempt to provide 3 support units of each type, to include Armored, Anti-Tank, Artillery, Anti-aircraft, Rocket, etc.

That ending ",etc." Is the culprit.

If there were 3 categories of SU and we set the SU auto level to '3' then we should have 9 SU's in that Corps assuming they were available. the fact that we DON'T know how many categories of SU there are and that construction & pioneer SU's are somehow magically exempt makes the whole thing a farce.

Some of my corps have 10-13 SU's and some have none.. All set to default "3" for many turns.

I decided to close Pandoras box and use the manual method ;)

< Message edited by coolts -- 6/18/2013 12:53:43 PM >


_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/18/2013 3:27:27 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coolts

This is going back to the old arguments which i feel originated with an obscurity in the manual;

7.6.3.2.........The level setting indicates the number of each type of support unit that the computer will attempt to provide to that particular headquarters unit, based on availability. For example, if the player sets "Support Level" to 3 the computer would attempt to provide 3 support units of each type, to include Armored, Anti-Tank, Artillery, Anti-aircraft, Rocket, etc.

That ending ",etc." Is the culprit.

If there were 3 categories of SU and we set the SU auto level to '3' then we should have 9 SU's in that Corps assuming they were available. the fact that we DON'T know how many categories of SU there are and that construction & pioneer SU's are somehow magically exempt makes the whole thing a farce.

Some of my corps have 10-13 SU's and some have none.. All set to default "3" for many turns.

I decided to close Pandoras box and use the manual method ;)


The different types of German SU:

The ones you have to handle manually
1. Construction units
2. Pioneers

The ones you can transfer for free (numbers at the start of Barbarossa)
1. Artillery (whatever gun, whatever calibre, whatever name), 124
2. AA (every AA SU, whatever type, with the exception of Flak Regiments from German cities), overall 128
3. SP guns (Stugs, JPz, sIG), 25
4. AT (37 mm), 5
5. Nebelwerfer (=German Rocket SU), 28
6. MG, 3
7. Bicycle, 1

Your SUs don’t seem to move? Then I would check the receiving end, which is your higher HQs. If they are locked they won’t take back the stuff you don’t need in frontline Corps. For the automated system to work, the setting at the beginning of your campaign should be 1/2/3 for Corps (whatever you deem appropriate), 0 for Amies, but 9 for Army groups, and 9 for OKH. After 3 or 4 turns all the unneeded stuff from your corps will be found there. And from OKH, redistribution as wanted/needed IS FOR FREE.

Attached my personal memo (modified from pompack). The amount of APs saved for more important things (leader reassignements etc) is amazing, just look at the numbers of SUs.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/18/2013 3:29:15 PM   
Balou


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memo




Attachment (1)

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/18/2013 3:49:37 PM   
coolts


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Thank you for that explanation. It should be added to the manual IMO.

_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

(in reply to Balou)
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RE: Support unit availability - 6/20/2013 3:00:27 AM   
bairdlander

 

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Yes,but what is the range for moving?The manual says no range,but there is,does anyone know what it is?

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/20/2013 12:07:57 PM   
rrbill

 

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Think the range varies by type of support unit. You can get your answer by trying to assign units from one corps to other HQs. The HQs in range will be listed and their ranges are given. May take an intermediate step(s) to get some Axis AGN units to AGS. Once tried to get some "monster" arty from one place to another. Although it happened, it wasn't very useful.

< Message edited by rrbill -- 6/20/2013 12:09:13 PM >

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/20/2013 12:39:24 PM   
morvael


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If you are willing to spend a lot of real time like me (3-4 hours), there is nothing better than to create a spreadsheet with stocks of each type of SU at various armies (neighbours next to each other). Then it becomes clearly seen where is some surplus and where is lack of certain SUs to reassign them directly wherever possible between armies (by using the HHQ option of given SU). Only those units that have to move somewhere far away can be sent to STAVKA and railed around. When units will be ordered as you want them it's very simple to keep the spreadsheet updated, as future changes are very limited. This is the fastest way (measured in game turns) provided you are willing to spend real time and some APs. Here is a fragment of my spreadsheet (I keep one for front hqs, one for air hqs with their air units, and one with combat units):




Attachment (1)

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/20/2013 1:38:43 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Yes,but what is the range for moving?The manual says no range,but there is,does anyone know what it is?


There is no range limit. BUT there is a display limit to the number of HQs that can be displayed in the transfer graphic and that display is sorted by range. So if a HQ is too far away AND there are a large number of choices for that particular SU, it will not show up as an option. IOW there is no range limit but there is a display limit that is a function of range which often looks the same way.

SO... if the HQ you want does not show up on the list you have to move closer.

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/20/2013 3:46:48 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

memo



I take it that this concept can also be applied when playing the Soviet side?

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/21/2013 11:14:06 AM   
coolts


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That spread sheet is a thing of beauty. I like the split cells for sub headings. (excel titillation )

In my new PBEM game I may start something similar.

_____________________________

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RE: Support unit availability - 6/21/2013 8:59:03 PM   
rrbill

 

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Aha! display limitation seems like range limits. Nice to know. But, for the overall question of what to do to support units, I think once you get them sorted out, balanced, and focused at the schwerpunkt one's done...

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RE: Support unit availability - 7/21/2013 6:24:17 AM   
fbs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

There is no range limit. BUT there is a display limit to the number of HQs that can be displayed in the transfer graphic and that display is sorted by range. So if a HQ is too far away AND there are a large number of choices for that particular SU, it will not show up as an option. IOW there is no range limit but there is a display limit that is a function of range which often looks the same way.

SO... if the HQ you want does not show up on the list you have to move closer.



I think there's no range limit for transfers to Higher HQ, Front and Military Districts. For transfers to Army and Corps, I believe there is a hard limit of 10 hexes.

I've checked perhaps a dozen transfer lists, and couldn't find a single one of them that listed a Corps or Army more than 10 hexes away; meanwhile it routinely lists Military Districts 110 hexes away.

Of course I may be wrong... but this is getting me to think on how to get those free transfers from STAVKA to Army and Corps. Me thinks getting Stalin with some Caviar and Salmon on a train tour through the front, dropping the support units as he goes - you see, you can transfer the SU while on railroad, then continue the railroad trip. Zero admin, with the extra benefit that the soldiers are going to love Stalin so much they will make statues for him with double-size moustaches. Everybody wins!

ps: except Hitler, rar-rar-rar

< Message edited by fbs -- 7/21/2013 6:25:20 AM >

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