Sea Classics Magazine

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Sea Classics Magazine

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Sea Classics Magazine

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Sea Classics Magazine - 6/8/2013 9:51:58 AM

afspret

Posts: 801
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Hanahan, SC
Status: offline

I have bought my last edition of the above magazine. Its so full of errors & mistakes its beyond sad because there are a lot of misspelled words & incomplete sentences. They either need to get an editoral staff or fire the ones they currently have.

Some other mistakes: on page 16 the story identifies the USS England as DE-655, despite the fact the adjacent pic clearly shows its hull number as 635 & pics caption identifies it as DE-635 (DE-655 was never named & cancelled). The caption for the pic on page 20 identifies the ship as the USS Monaghan (DD-454), again, despite the fact the pic shows the hull number as being 354, which is correct (DD-454 was the USS Ellyson).

Page 30 shows a pic of the USS Tarbell supposedly steaming through Charleston Harbor in 1943, despite the fact there is no wake & you can clearly see either an anchor or mooring line at the bow. There is also a similar pic taken from a different angle on page 28 & I was able to find both pics on NavSource, which states the pics were taken in New York Harbor.

The clintcher though was the story on the SMS Konigsberg & its operations during WW 1. There is a pic on page 44 which is of 3rd ship to bear that name, docked @ Gdynia, Poland before the war. The problem is, the third ship wasn't commissioned until 1927 & the port of Gdynia (which is misspelled in the caption), or the nation of Poland for that matter, didn't come into being until after WW 1. At the bottom of the same page is a series of pics illustrating the sinking of the Konigsberg, but once again it is of the third ship to bear that name, as it is being sunk at Bergen, Norway in 1940. There are two pics on page 45 which are of the actual ship from WW 1 & its resting place after being sunk in the Rufiji Delta and all one has to do is look at the adjacent shoe line in the pics to tell the differences in locations.

< Message edited by afspret -- 6/8/2013 11:24:02 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 12:54:58 AM

JeffK

Posts: 5317
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline

look at the adjacent shoe line in the pics to tell the differences in locations.

Everyone makes typo's.

But the quality of a lot of magazines is falling, the continued attempt to find something new and startling takes precedence over accuracy in research.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to afspret)

Post #: 2

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 4:50:17 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

Magazines? Who ever considered them knights of the english language and spelling thereof? Granted The New Yorker and some others were deserving of respect, but I read the New York Times every morning and am appalled at the syntax and spelling errors to be found every day. This was not so fifteen short years ago. What are we to do? Quality editors used to find all those "typos". Nowadays, everything that can be wrong can be found in the NYT. Multiple tenses in the same sentence, double negatives, substandard words, subjects without verbs and verbs without subjects, neologisms etc.. Sometimes I have to read a sentence or paragraph three or more times before I figure out what the writer meant to convey. I've noticed that something else not being taught in our schools (for some time now) includes the concept of civil or social responsibility. I don't know what motivates some of our youths to join the services these days, but they are so few and don't represent the population as a whole. The current ethic being taught (or at least being learned) is "I got mine, now you get yours". Some people are trying to drive this country to be a third world country, and I don't understand why. Certain people's ideal society is identical to (and I don't think they realize it, or at least hope they don't) today's China. You can't breathe the air, you can't drink the water, you can't safely eat the food, there aren't any regulations and the federal government is weak as a newborn puppy. There is no real democracy and the provinces are ruled by gangsters who generally answer to no one. People who call themselves "libertarians" but are actually anarchists (as they don't believe in government) want us to return to the wild west where a man's a man, a gun's a gun, and a woman is whatever you want her to be.

Wow. That was quite a transition in one paragraph. This was not a political statement, because politics is corrupt to its very core and I've never profited in any way from that pursuit. I am talking about ethics though, and morals, and what it means to be a nationalist and (if you pardon the usage of this much abused term) a patriot. This has to be on the minds of veterans, and they must be wondering if the people who've benefitted from their selflessness understand what they've been given.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to JeffK)

Post #: 3

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 12:36:04 PM

tocaff

Posts: 4689
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline

The world is going to hell in a basket when a Gorn is critical of the NY Times!

Some of the people that I know (knew) that had horrible English were English teachers. Youze wouldda taught dat dey shouldda bin much more bettor dan dat.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 4

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 6:27:38 PM

joey

Posts: 875
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Wilmington, DE
Status: offline

I am a college professor. If you want to see where we, as a country, are going, simply look at our high school graduates. They are a great predictor of the direction of the country. The real shame is that many still cannot read and write even after graduating college. I makes one wonder. j

(in reply to tocaff)

Post #: 5

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 6:44:53 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 5925
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

I teach graduate marketing, and I can tell you that in our faculty meetings for the last 5 years the top two topics have been: writing skills (lack of) and plagiarism. I routinely sanction ~50% of my classes for Code of Ethics violations.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 6

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 7:09:12 PM

Gary Childress

Posts: 5922
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

I do Financial Aid for a small career college and have to say that I am amazed that kids are graduating HS who can barely spell their own names (almost literally speaking). I've seen some of their writing and a lot of them have absolutely NO grasp of grammar, syntax or especially spelling. How are these kids making it through high school? Are high schools providing diplomas through their vending machines now? I mean I'm no Robert Frost but what is going on?

_____________________________

Favorite/Awesome games from Matrix

War in the Pacific/AE
Panzer Corps
Commander Europe at War
John Tiller's Campaign Series
The Close Combat Series (all versions)
Advanced Tactics Gold

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 7

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 7:21:21 PM

kaleun

Posts: 4776
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

NEA

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to Gary Childress)

Post #: 8

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 8:07:27 PM

joey

Posts: 875
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Wilmington, DE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I teach graduate marketing, and I can tell you that in our faculty meetings for the last 5 years the top two topics have been: writing skills (lack of) and plagiarism. I routinely sanction ~50% of my classes for Code of Ethics violations.

I teach management, project management, and related subjects. I would add poor math skills to your list. I wonder if such games a WITP will be possible in future with the quality of students were are creating. Are we the last to see such wonderful games?

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 9

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 10:14:24 PM

Nemo121

Posts: 5808
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

There are still quality students going through the system. I lecture in undergraduate medicine, postgraduate psychiatry and teach in a Masters programme in an Irish university and the difference in quality of students in those courses compared to students enrolled in some of the other courses is quite marked. I had the opportunity to review papers from an Arts course and honestly found several where the student, after 4 years of supposed study, clearly couldn't even understand the question. This was despite the fact that each question asked had, by policy of the department, to be based on handouts which specifically provided the answer.

So, the students would get a handout on German philosophers from 1700 to 1920 which would explain the prominent figures, the two to three main schools and the differences between them. They'd be told this was a subject of importance for the exam and then at the end of the year they'd get a question asking something along the lines of, "Describe and compare the 3 main schools of thought in German philosophical circles from 1700 to 1920." Even those students who scored very highly mostly just regurgitated the handouts. Less than 10% appeared to engage in any critical evaluation whatsoever - according to the Professor marking the papers with whom I discussed this.

In the past only that top 10% would have been enrolled, all the others would have been doing vocational courses more fitting to the jobs they were going to end up with. The right/need for everyone to go to college is not justified by the objective reality of the benefits which accrue to mediocre students from doing degrees which have no cachet.

In Ireland right now over 50% of students progress on to third level education although, thankfully, over the past 10 years or so the Government has started creating 3rd-level vocational training courses so that they can do a 2 year "college course" concerning "electrical engineering" and at the end of it they become an electrician. The reality is though that if we view universities as centres of excellence then, clearly, 50% of 2nd level/High School graduates aren't "excellent" and might be better suited with vocational training schools or what Americans seem to have set up with your "community colleges".

The top 10% are, I believe, still excellent, the problem is the other 40% who are buying into the mythos of a "university education" without objectively, rationally assessing whether the mythos applies to them.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/9/2013 10:15:26 PM >

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 10

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/9/2013 10:40:41 PM

JeffK

Posts: 5317
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline

From Nemo

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

Same problem here.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 11

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 3:12:28 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

There are still quality students going through the system. I lecture in undergraduate medicine, postgraduate psychiatry and teach in a Masters programme in an Irish university and the difference in quality of students in those courses compared to students enrolled in some of the other courses is quite marked. I had the opportunity to review papers from an Arts course and honestly found several where the student, after 4 years of supposed study, clearly couldn't even understand the question. This was despite the fact that each question asked had, by policy of the department, to be based on handouts which specifically provided the answer.

So, the students would get a handout on German philosophers from 1700 to 1920 which would explain the prominent figures, the two to three main schools and the differences between them. They'd be told this was a subject of importance for the exam and then at the end of the year they'd get a question asking something along the lines of, "Describe and compare the 3 main schools of thought in German philosophical circles from 1700 to 1920." Even those students who scored very highly mostly just regurgitated the handouts. Less than 10% appeared to engage in any critical evaluation whatsoever - according to the Professor marking the papers with whom I discussed this.

In the past only that top 10% would have been enrolled, all the others would have been doing vocational courses more fitting to the jobs they were going to end up with. The right/need for everyone to go to college is not justified by the objective reality of the benefits which accrue to mediocre students from doing degrees which have no cachet.

In Ireland right now over 50% of students progress on to third level education although, thankfully, over the past 10 years or so the Government has started creating 3rd-level vocational training courses so that they can do a 2 year "college course" concerning "electrical engineering" and at the end of it they become an electrician. The reality is though that if we view universities as centres of excellence then, clearly, 50% of 2nd level/High School graduates aren't "excellent" and might be better suited with vocational training schools or what Americans seem to have set up with your "community colleges".

The top 10% are, I believe, still excellent, the problem is the other 40% who are buying into the mythos of a "university education" without objectively, rationally assessing whether the mythos applies to them.

I have a friend who, in collaboration with a philosophy professor who fled Deutschland in the late '30s, has been working on an english translation of Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit for about 40 years. They are very nearly done and the product is quite different than any previous translation. I would go so far as to say that any German student studying philosophy would be better off reading this translation into english than the original german. For this sort of thing german is a very clumsy instrument and I think after 40 years of work, these two guys have gotten into his head. They will likely self publish.

I should note that the professor's father was Jewish, but he was raised Catholic according to Jewish law.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 6/10/2013 3:29:38 AM >

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 12

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 3:25:21 AM

Gary Childress

Posts: 5922
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

There are still quality students going through the system. I lecture in undergraduate medicine, postgraduate psychiatry and teach in a Masters programme in an Irish university and the difference in quality of students in those courses compared to students enrolled in some of the other courses is quite marked. I had the opportunity to review papers from an Arts course and honestly found several where the student, after 4 years of supposed study, clearly couldn't even understand the question. This was despite the fact that each question asked had, by policy of the department, to be based on handouts which specifically provided the answer.

So, the students would get a handout on German philosophers from 1700 to 1920 which would explain the prominent figures, the two to three main schools and the differences between them. They'd be told this was a subject of importance for the exam and then at the end of the year they'd get a question asking something along the lines of, "Describe and compare the 3 main schools of thought in German philosophical circles from 1700 to 1920." Even those students who scored very highly mostly just regurgitated the handouts. Less than 10% appeared to engage in any critical evaluation whatsoever - according to the Professor marking the papers with whom I discussed this.

In the past only that top 10% would have been enrolled, all the others would have been doing vocational courses more fitting to the jobs they were going to end up with. The right/need for everyone to go to college is not justified by the objective reality of the benefits which accrue to mediocre students from doing degrees which have no cachet.

In Ireland right now over 50% of students progress on to third level education although, thankfully, over the past 10 years or so the Government has started creating 3rd-level vocational training courses so that they can do a 2 year "college course" concerning "electrical engineering" and at the end of it they become an electrician. The reality is though that if we view universities as centres of excellence then, clearly, 50% of 2nd level/High School graduates aren't "excellent" and might be better suited with vocational training schools or what Americans seem to have set up with your "community colleges".

The top 10% are, I believe, still excellent, the problem is the other 40% who are buying into the mythos of a "university education" without objectively, rationally assessing whether the mythos applies to them.

I have a friend who, in collaboration with a philosophy professor who fled Deutschland in the late '30s, has been working on an english translation of Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit for about 40 years. They are very nearly done and the product is quite different than any previous translation. I would go so far as to say that any German student studying philosophy would be better off reading this translation into english than the original german. For this sort of thing german is a very clumsy instrument and I think after 40 years of work, these two guys have gotten into his head. They will likely self publish.

Wow! That's going to be some translation! Not to mention that Philosophy profesor must be like 90 years old by now. Let me know when it comes out. I likely won't read it but I'd like to see the academic reviews.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 13

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 3:30:31 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Wow! That's going to be some translation! Not to mention that Philosophy profesor must be like 90 years old by now. Let me know when it comes out. I likely won't read it but I'd like to see the academic reviews.

Forget the academic reviews, they'll all hate it since it will undercut their long held positions. You should read it if you have the background to appreciate it, and I can get you a copy before it's even published.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 6/10/2013 3:44:00 AM >

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to Gary Childress)

Post #: 14

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 3:44:51 AM

Gary Childress

Posts: 5922
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Wow! That's going to be some translation! Not to mention that Philosophy profesor must be like 90 years old by now. Let me know when it comes out. I likely won't read it but I'd like to see the academic reviews.

Forget the academic reviews, they'll all hate it since it will undercut their long term positions. You should read it if you have the background to appreciate it, and I can get you a copy before it's even published.

Much thanks for the offer! I've never had a great deal of interest in Hegel and thus little background on him, so it would no doubt be wasted on me. Maybe one of these days I'll find the time and desire to investigate Hegel. If so it'll definitely be through secondary sources like your friend's. Hegel's own writings are utterly incomprehensible to me. lol

_____________________________

Favorite/Awesome games from Matrix

War in the Pacific/AE
Panzer Corps
Commander Europe at War
John Tiller's Campaign Series
The Close Combat Series (all versions)
Advanced Tactics Gold

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 15

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 4:19:53 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

I'm going to bet you when you see this translation, they will not be incomprehensible to you at all.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to Gary Childress)

Post #: 16

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 5:44:43 AM

Reg

Posts: 2251
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: Victoria, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: From Nemo

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

Same problem here.

This is also reflects a fundamental flaw in fee verses merit based education. They paid their money so they expect their degree....

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has introduced a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to JeffK)

Post #: 17

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 5:57:09 AM

Capt Cliff

Posts: 1672
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline

Sea Classic's and Air Classic's have always had a problem with typo's and errors, but what the hey still cool to look at.

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to Reg)

Post #: 18

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 9:41:28 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 2178
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

I taught college (US) for seven years (Math). It was really sad to see all the HS graduates fail their entrance exams and be require to take redemial Math and English before they could take an actual college course. So in the US, we are actually funding secondary education (9-12th grades) with tax dollars, AND then if these people want to go to college, pay tax dollars AGIAN to have them take the SAME exact material again

in a college enviroment. Nice huh?

I taught an Algebra I class at the college (seriously) and it met at 8am for an hour every weekday. A really nasty schedule, both for me and the students

. I had one student that attended every class, failed every test, and showed up for the final

. He had done zero homework too. I said what the heck, if he got an A, I'd pass him. So i gave him the final. Of course he failed

.

I asked him to wait after he turned the fianl in as I was very interested to see how he had done. So after I had graded it, I took him outside the class and asked him in a professional and polite way WTF? I will never forget his reply and this is word for word of what he told me. He said he thought my class would be like his high school. As long as he attended the classes and was quiet, he would pass. I sadly informed him that college was not like that and he would have to repeat the course. He looked very shocked that I was actually going to fail him. I have no idea if he continued or just gave up. But I have always wondered.

While his case was faily unique, there were plenty of others. I would start off a class like this with about 30-35 students at the beginning of the term. Once everyone knew that work was expected and tests/homework mattered, I would be down to 15 or so. Usually after the first test

. The higher education process in action lol.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 6/10/2013 9:43:21 AM >

(in reply to Capt Cliff)

Post #: 19

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 4:24:58 PM

joey

Posts: 875
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Wilmington, DE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: From Nemo

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

Same problem here.

This is also reflects a fundamental flaw in fee verses merit based education. They paid their money so they expect their degree....

Where I teach if they pay their fee, they expect a degree, or they sue! Law suits are quite common when one does not get the grade they expect in a given class. What many of my fellow professors has seen is that learning is not important, only the grade is, as it somehow relates to value whereas the learning of the material does not. I rarely get an "I don't understand", but I often get a "Why didn't I get my 'A'"? It seems a bit misaligned. j

(in reply to Reg)

Post #: 20

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 4:53:57 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

Numdydar, you need to proofread your stuff. I'll give you a gentleman's D.

My stuff looks just like yours before I proofread it, and still sometimes stuff gets through and I edit it so I don't look as stupid as I am.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 21

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 4:56:30 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

joey, I have, they have, we have. He has, she has, it has. Enough from me.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 22

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 5:00:02 PM

jeffk3510

Posts: 4048
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline

If someone has a near perfect GPA and wasn't involved in anything outside of coursework during their time in college, I pass on hiring them. I want to see someone who struggles some what, was very involved during their time, and able to juggle a big schedule. They also need to retain that information and put it to work. This line of work is difficult, and has many obstacles you must overcome to be successful. I want to know they can get themselves out of the many holes we, as people, tend to put ourselves in. 95% of the people we interview feel like society owes them a job, their first impression is horrible, and their resume is garbage. It looks like it was put together the night before by their little sister who has yet to reach middle school. Good luck with that one buddy.

< Message edited by jeffk3510 -- 6/10/2013 5:02:53 PM >

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 23

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 9:39:47 PM

obvert

Posts: 7899
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

The problem ( in terms of student quality in university) is that university has been made accessible to vast numbers of students who don't really require it to do the jobs they will obtain. In many cases vocational training would more than suffice but these kids are doing 3-4 year college degrees, getting life experience ( which is good ) but also being saddled with massive debts which outweigh the benefits which accrue to them from the life experiences and degree obtained.

People who have debt have to work. Get 'em in the red early and you have a contributing member of society.

Seriously though, even though the material may not stick, a college experience is a great time to understand who you are. Much preferable to getting out of HS, or dropping out, getting married at 19-20 and working the 9-5 to support the kids. What we don't see working in education is the effect down the road. Sure there are not top professional jobs for all of them, but the experience and knowing people who have achieved something also helps one dream bigger and maybe take things a bit more seriously in the mid-20s, finally getting on track and using some of the general thinking skills obtained on the way.

quote:

I taught college (US) for seven years (Math). It was really sad to see all the HS graduates fail their entrance exams and be require to take redemial Math and English before they could take an actual college course. So in the US, we are actually funding secondary education (9-12th grades) with tax dollars, AND then if these people want to go to college, pay tax dollars AGIAN to have them take the SAME exact material again in a college enviroment. Nice huh?

I taught an Algebra I class at the college (seriously) and it met at 8am for an hour every weekday. A really nasty schedule, both for me and the students . I had one student that attended every class, failed every test, and showed up for the final . He had done zero homework too. I said what the heck, if he got an A, I'd pass him. So i gave him the final. Of course he failed .

I asked him to wait after he turned the fianl in as I was very interested to see how he had done. So after I had graded it, I took him outside the class and asked him in a professional and polite way WTF? I will never forget his reply and this is word for word of what he told me. He said he thought my class would be like his high school. As long as he attended the classes and was quiet, he would pass. I sadly informed him that college was not like that and he would have to repeat the course. He looked very shocked that I was actually going to fail him. I have no idea if he continued or just gave up. But I have always wondered.

While his case was faily unique, there were plenty of others. I would start off a class like this with about 30-35 students at the beginning of the term. Once everyone knew that work was expected and tests/homework mattered, I would be down to 15 or so. Usually after the first test . The higher education process in action lol.

I taught in the university system for 6 years and I now teach in an international HS. I loved that about university classes. They don't do the work or show up; dropped. That's it. nothing like a bit of failure to separate the chafe from the wheat. Students do have to have the desire at that level, and if they don't they will be working in the service industry soon.

The most interesting thing about starting in this HS was that I couldn't let anyone fail. The support system is so well developed that if a student is not performing their life becomes much more difficult, regulated and painful so that they find it easier to just do the work and show some interest. Peer pressure is important too, and these kids want to succeed. There are some who get by with the minimum, but not many. This also means that it's a place where we can teach not only the subject but critical thinking and practical application. That is rare and it's why I love what I do. When I see those students 4-5 years on as well rounded young graduates with entrepreneurial goals and the drive to get there it makes me feel like there is some hope.

In the states the HS system needs a big shakeup. If you haven't seen it check out 'Waiting for Superman.'

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1566648/

The US spends more money on education than most countries and with much worse results. What is needed are better incentives for teachers and a reformation of the tenure system. Luckily I'm not teaching in that system.

< Message edited by obvert -- 6/10/2013 9:52:41 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Nemo121)

Post #: 24

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 9:49:23 PM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

I keep having a recurring dream, call it a nightmare if you like, where I'm back in college and I keep missing classes because of various reasons, sometimes my own fault, and forgetting where the classroom is and what the professor looks like and if I do find it (which is rarely) trying to sneak in without anyone noticing I'm late.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 25

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 11:09:17 PM

DD696

Posts: 660
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline

This has been going on for a long time now.

Back when I was in the USMC stationed at Subic Bay, PI, in 72-73, part of my duties was administrating the Marine Corps Proficiency Test to the Marines stationed there. I have to admit that I had to fail a great many Marines due to their unfamiliarity with the English language. They could not read, they could not comprehend, and they could not write. I think some knew the material, but they were incapable of expressing it in a manner that a reasonable person would understand.

In short, many were absolutely illiterate. That may not have made much difference when the mission of the Marine Corps rifleman is to kill, but it may make a big difference in knowing WHO, WHEN, and WHY to kill. It probably made a great difference on the streets of America then, as well as today.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 26

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/10/2013 11:49:41 PM

Numdydar

Posts: 2178
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Numdydar, you need to proofread your stuff. I'll give you a gentleman's D. My stuff looks just like yours before I proofread it, and still sometimes stuff gets through and I edit it so I don't look as stupid as I am.

I taught math, not English

. I never aspired to write perfectly, at least not on a forum

Can I submit my Japanese Production Primer as extra credit to 'improve' my grade

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 27

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/11/2013 3:33:01 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

Is that yours? I don't remember, but the answer is absolutely yes. I don't comprehend all of it even though in the case of your not so clear phrases sometimes, I think I interpreted what you meant correctly. But I'm convinced I'm going to have to really learn it by doing it. In the case of aircraft production though, I feel I need to have a sound long term plan before I even begin playing, and that's going to take me some more work.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 28

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/11/2013 3:56:45 AM

Dili

Posts: 3117
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

This was not a political statement, because politics...

Yes it was political and it is even more amazing you contradict yourself akin to what you criticize.

Anyway when people want to enforce equality shouldn't be surprised to find instead mediocrity and scarcity of value.
Equality means no redundancy, mean one bet takes it all, mean rarefied new good ideas, new no way to do things.
In Europe the more creative times were before the Nation States started massive "education" programs which were nothing more than normalization for political reason.
If a school because of regulation need to get 80% of kids to get their degree then obviously the regulators force in practice the teachers to give degree to many that don't deserve it.

If someone wants any certification in some software they need to get 90% of answers right. Now imagine that in public or the so called "private" schools at maths, language etc...
School today is almost the inverse of what economy need.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 29

RE: Sea Classics Magazine - 6/11/2013 4:31:27 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 6098
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

This was not a political statement, because politics...

Yes it was political and it is even more amazing you contradict yourself akin to what you criticize.

Huh?

quote:

Anyway when people want to enforce equality shouldn't be surprised to find instead mediocrity and scarcity of value.
Equality means no redundancy, mean one bet takes it all, mean rarefied new good ideas, new no way to do things.
In Europe the more creative times were before the Nation States started massive "education" programs which were nothing more than normalization for political reason.

Who said anything about equality? Not me. Who's being political now?

quote:

If a school because of regulation need to get 80% of kids to get their degree then obviously the regulators force in practice the teachers to give degree to many that don't deserve it.

If people who don't believe in education, and don't believe in science are allowed to run things, don't be surprised at what you get. As for regulation, assuming this is one of your pet peeves, the North Atlantic Cod is going extinct because of the lack of regulation. Unfettered capitalism will destroy itself every time. Sufficient and balanced regulation is necessary to achieve the best interests of every industry as well as everyone else. Can you overregulate? Of course.

quote:

If someone wants any certification in some software they need to get 90% of answers right. Now imagine that in public or the so called "private" schools at maths, language etc...
School today is almost the inverse of what economy need.

Sadly, "what the economy need" is well educated immigrants (not a bad thing in any case) because we are unable to educate our kids properly. When a major part of society doesn't respect firefighters, police and yes, teachers what do you think will happen? You'll get fires, crime and crappy teachers. In the '60s we were admired all around the world. Now look at us.

_____________________________

Darwin has his eye on me.

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 30