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RE: Quickie Questions - 7/5/2013 4:52:57 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 8832
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sparkle

Ha ha ... well thanks for all the interesting answers! I'm not going to string this out anymore, enough has been said - except that I just attacked the aforementioned recce unit with my 2nd SS Tiger formation plus 4 x batteries of Art. at (ironically) Villiers Bocage.

Outcome:

Axis:
1 x smg squad = = lost none.
2 x 251 ht = = lost 1.
11 x VI Tigers = lost 6.

Allied:
20mm AA ht x 4 = lost none.
AEC AC (75mm) x 8 = lost none.
Humber Scout x 61 = lost 1.
DAC AC (2pndr) x 41 = lost none.

From my fairly extensive research on armoured warfare, particularly in Normandy, plus having run tests, this is still a highly unlikely outcome even in bocage country.
I used Combat Mission - which I believe have very accurately modeled physics and good AI.

Yes, the AEC's are able to penetrate a Tiger but it has to be less than medium range, and rarely from the front - and yes the 2pdrs can track a Tiger or knock out ancillary kit but only from the side (rarely) or rear and only close up. I know there are a lot of the buggers on the Allied side swarming about, and fine though the DAC is (I've been in one, I love 'em) - losing only one scout car in this entire attack is pushing the limits of believability.

We are talking about the 2nd SS Panzer!
In my tests - the Tigers lost half a dozen or so each time, but not before the fields and lanes were littered with armoured cars every time.

Anyway - I think we've all said enough, and I am still loving the game!
Thx.


You still don't give us enough info to determine what's happening. What were the supply and readiness levels? What was the recon unit's deployment? What was the terrain? Was there any shock for either side? What were the proficiencies? What was the hex scale? What was the visibility? Are you sure there was no support? We would need to see the combat report pages, among other things, to even be sure you've described it accurately - please don't take offense: you are a new player, and they often don't fully understand the reports.

Furthermore, the descriptions given of the tactical simulations made so far don't give me confidence that they even treated the recon unit as a defender, much less that they may have been dug-in in bocage or dense urban. In the real world, the power of a gun is irrelevant if it can't detect its target and drives past it, exposing its side armor. Or if the target is dug-in it may be protected by a berm or such; then it may be close to invulnerable. Also, if the frontage modeled is several kilometers, those few tigers may be spread so thin they will be automatically flanked.

(in reply to Sparkle)
Post #: 31
RE: Quickie Questions - 7/5/2013 6:22:03 PM   
Shazman

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2009
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If this is Overlord 44 by James Burns in 2002 it is 2.5km per hex half day turns. A Tiger company attacking unsupported on a front that large does not make sense. It's no wonder 100+ armored cars shoot them up. If the person responsible for this survived they would find themselves on the Eastern Front.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 32
RE: Quickie Questions - 7/5/2013 10:07:03 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2166
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Also another note on the last test with SP: 2 of the "destroyed" Tigers werent actually destroyed. But their cres abandomend them. It seems they had taken enough punishment, even if only from small guns. One of these also took hits in the engine and so was immobile anyway. Crews popped out and tried to escape on foot, however they were gunned down by the preying ACs (poor buggers )


Good point. Has anyone of you looked how many of the lost Tigers went to the replacement pool and how many were actually destroyed in the TOAW battles?

_____________________________


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 33
RE: Quickie Questions - 7/6/2013 8:49:56 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 1553
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sparkle

Hi, I am new to the game, and so far I like it very much. That said, I am an old hand at wargaming, both virtual and tabletop.
I am therefore a little fussy about reality within the games I play and thus have a couple of questions...

1. How is combat engine modeled to such an extent that (playing the Overlord campaign)a combined attack of several of my Batts with support from 25+ of each late model Spitfires, Typhoons and Lightnings, can lose 11 Spitfires, 8 Lightnings and 5 Typhoons to a German defensive formation of 2 small calibre AA guns, a quad flak plus only a handful of Stukas and 3 x me110s (these should not touch Spits as fighters).
To my mind this is ludicrous, unless there is a game mechanic I am unaware of? ie - are there off board long range AA in play? Night-fighters? Fuel loss and ditched planes? Even then, 11 IV Spits...?!

2. My US Batts are attacking the fixed coastal defences. Upon returning fire, I noticed that all the coastal 'nests' in the area defended and then fired back - totaling over 520 rifle squads plus their individual guns. How can the nests fire upon my Batt that is up to 10km away. Is it just the 105mm guns? Because they do a lot of damage for barely a handful of guns...

3. I am losing a strangely large number of Art to what I am assuming is counter-battery fire. But this is a large number considering the enemy has no sighted targets (air spotters or units nearby)- ie my guns are firing from several km and they happily return fire over 10km and consistently take out 3-6 of my 25pdrs - blind. How does this work? That didn't really happen irl. .

4. The 100% entrenchment upon the third stage of 'dig-in' - - does this mean, mines, new-built pillboxes, tank ditches etc? Because that is a lot to expect from the lads after just 36 hours days of digging in? And how much does the 100% give as a bonus?

5. The large single supply discs, coloured red/white at seemingly random places on the map - what do these signify? Are they the enemy supply dumps?

6. To increase supply per turn, it is best to remain still. Does digging-in count as moving in terms of increasing supply?

Thanks for answers!



I got a scenario called Tutorial '41; perfect to test various aspects of the game. Feel free to d/l it from here:

Slides (need to be revised though) : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56215959/TOAW%20Tutorial.zip
The actual scenario with modified .eqp file: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56215959/Tutorial%20%2741.zip

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
(Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius)

Visit the Gefechtsstand!

(in reply to Sparkle)
Post #: 34
RE: Quickie Questions - 7/7/2013 12:21:47 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 785
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Also another note on the last test with SP: 2 of the "destroyed" Tigers werent actually destroyed. But their cres abandomend them. It seems they had taken enough punishment, even if only from small guns. One of these also took hits in the engine and so was immobile anyway. Crews popped out and tried to escape on foot, however they were gunned down by the preying ACs (poor buggers )


Good point. Has anyone of you looked how many of the lost Tigers went to the replacement pool and how many were actually destroyed in the TOAW battles?


I made a test in TOAW too, I got circa the same result like OP, and yes 2 or 3 tigers were damaged and send back to pool. As others already explained I guess this result is ok within the scope of this game.

And also it would be really stupid to send either unit in the battle witout support, but in my case it was only testing, so I WONT go to the Russian front I mean you need at least some infantry and at least a few 81mm mortars to fire smoke support in the case of the ACs (they need a short range/visibility for their small guns, while Tigers need exactly the opposite: as great visibility as possible to bring 88m to bear - which in TOAW is too weak anyway btw). Only in case of allied air suppority Tigers wont like good weather/visibilty. The terrain in Normandy wasnt the best for Tigers anyway, Russian steppes better (or desert or plains)

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 35
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