AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the Lvov gambit)

[cmill_MatrixForum]

In an effort to avoid using the Lvov pocket/gambit opening, I am curious as to how others play out AGS turn one?

[Balou]

Most Lvov openers require to divert mech units from 2.Pz Group to AGS. Otherwise - with 1.Pz alone - the pocket ( a smaller one) may be possible but isn't rock solid. In other words: no assistance from 2.Pz Group kept me thinking "historical" - whatever this is...

[carlkay58]

The Axis AI opening move is pretty historical as far as I can tell. So just follow those guidelines.

[cmill_MatrixForum]

To be more clear, I'm not necessarily looking for a purely historical opening turn for AGS. I guess I'm looking for a middle ground between historical and competitive.

In other words, is there a viable opening move in the south aside from the Lvov Gambit?

[carlkay58]

Check out some of the AARs and you can see a few. The latest ones of games with MT show the 'expanded L'vov' opening which does even more damage in the long term to the Soviets. There is also the challenge of creating your own opening.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Check out some of the AARs and you can see a few. The latest ones of games with MT show the 'expanded L'vov' opening which does even more damage in the long term to the Soviets. There is also the challenge of creating your own opening.

He specifically said he does not want to do the Lvov opener.

As for me, due to me playing the AI exclusively I don't do the Lvov opener. In fact as a rule for myself I don't send units further than about two hexes north of Tarnopol (in order not to cut off the rail line). Thus the direction is pretty much set, similar to the AI opener, although I still send a Panzer Corps from 2nd Panzer Group South. So in effect I complete two little pockets, one at Kovel, the other at Rovno.

[Ketza]

Recently I am using an opener that focuses on cutting rail lines and not doing the Lvow pocket. A pocket is still created at Kovel but turn 2 and 3 are much more enjoyable for both sides.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: cmill

To be more clear, I'm not necessarily looking for a purely historical opening turn for AGS. I guess I'm looking for a middle ground between historical and competitive.

In other words, is there a viable opening move in the south aside from the Lvov Gambit?

The game offers the chance to destroy most of SW Front in the first few turns so therefore, if you want to maintain a competitive edge, you have to do it.
I'd say the most economical way to do it requires only 1st cavalry division and 10th motorized division from 24th pz corps, plus one or both of it's infantry divisions.The four mobile divisions of 1st pz army then have the difficult job of cutting the rail line South of Tarnopol and linking up with 24th pz corps to form the Kovel pocket.It's best to keep at least one mobile unit from 2nd pz army in reserve in case of bad rolls.
With so little armor committed in the South, the Soviet player could decide to make a fight of it and if he's any good this could hold AGS up significantly.In fact the game could start to resemble the real campaign

[Balou]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Recently I am using an opener that focuses on cutting rail lines and not doing the Lvow pocket. A pocket is still created at Kovel but turn 2 and 3 are much more enjoyable for both sides.

I've recently seen a screenshot with the foremost axis unit sitting in Proskurow at the end of t1, cutting the only rail line out, but without closing the pocket. Nice move. But how much needs to borrowed from 2.Pz Group ?

[Ketza]

I usually send 2 Panzer and one SS division as well as the motor regiment mainly to make sure the Kovel pocket is wrapped up tight.

[Balou]

Ketza,
One more question: do your 2ndPz renegades switch Army/Corps HQ ?

[Ketza]

It may not be the best game choice or needed but I always try and keep my armies organized as I think the designers intended. So when I move the units south I always transfer them to 1st PZ group.

I move the corp HQ to OKH then switch it over to 1st PZ group. Seems to cost less that way AP wise.

[Balou]

Just wonder because then AGS - which is way over budget in CPs - gets an even greater load. It wont have any consequences in the early turns (?), but who knows for sure ?

[Ketza]

I really don't know. All the threads about disbanding corps HQs make me just "shrug"

[Klydon]

/Sigh.. I hate this topic, especially when people start playing the "I am not doing the Lvov pocket because it isn't historical" card. Do you also hold the view the Russians MUST stand and even counter attack because that is what they did historically? Do you have the same issues with the Russians when they run away, no matter what opening is used? Russian players who like to win do not do the former and like to do the latter.

For the OP, when do you expect a pocket to be formed if not on the first turn? When is it acceptable? Depending on your answers, imo, the best method (and easiest btw) is to allow no diversion of AGC forces to help AGS for the first couple of turns. Essentially, AGC forces may not move south of the southern most infantry unit for the first couple of turns.

[cmill_MatrixForum]

@Klydon:

Hey, I'm just trying to have fun. The Lvov pocket isn't fun for me; not necessarily because it isn't historical (but partly) but I suppose because I hate being forced to do a certain move/gambit, etc. to stay competitive. So if I can find a compromise of sorts, than I am hoping I will have more fun.

Thinking outside the box (in this case, outside the Lvov Gambit) is a catalyst for creative thought and different ways of doing things. I was asking because I am not aware of the entire history of the discussion in regards to the Lvov pocket, so if anything, I apologize for my ignorance in this matter - but please don't assume just because it may have been discussed extensively that I was any part of that conversation.

Ultimately, my reasons for avoiding the Lvov pocket don't have to make sense - it's a really a mixture of personal preference, curiosity, and just because it seemed like fun to discuss it. [:)]

[carlkay58]

The whole point that MT and Sapper have been making is that you can have a different opening and yet not do the 'traditional' L'vov opening and still manage to have a 'killer' opening. One of the points that have been made in the above posts is that there are alternatives that make for an exciting opening that still does the Axis player good. Just keep playing with different ideas until you come up with one that you feel comfortable with and allows you to have fun. I think if you concentrate on cutting the rail lines to the L'vov pocket on Turn 1 and then go deeper and attempt to keep the rail lines cut to the forces streaming out of the pocket, you can have a good series of running battles that keep both the Axis and Soviets on their toes and can be a lot of fun.

[gingerbread]

A delayed Lvov pocket is still a Lvov pocket. In fact, due to that the units usually OOS will draw replacements (in delay option), it bags even more men.

[carlkay58]

Yes, but if you extend it the right way the results will be some pretty massive battles to determine whether it gets pocketed or not. And how much gets pocketed.

[Von Weber]

If you avoid Lvov pocket than demand from SHC to make counterattacks by all the mech corps that he has as it was historically[:'(]