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AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the Lvov gambit)

 
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AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the Lvov... - 6/2/2013 2:50:29 PM   
cmill

 

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In an effort to avoid using the Lvov pocket/gambit opening, I am curious as to how others play out AGS turn one?
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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/2/2013 5:33:44 PM   
Balou


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Most Lvov openers require to divert mech units from 2.Pz Group to AGS. Otherwise - with 1.Pz alone - the pocket ( a smaller one) may be possible but isn't rock solid. In other words: no assistance from 2.Pz Group kept me thinking "historical" - whatever this is...

(in reply to cmill)
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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/2/2013 8:59:38 PM   
carlkay58

 

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The Axis AI opening move is pretty historical as far as I can tell. So just follow those guidelines.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/6/2013 2:19:03 AM   
cmill

 

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To be more clear, I'm not necessarily looking for a purely historical opening turn for AGS. I guess I'm looking for a middle ground between historical and competitive.

In other words, is there a viable opening move in the south aside from the Lvov Gambit?

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/6/2013 11:02:07 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Check out some of the AARs and you can see a few. The latest ones of games with MT show the 'expanded L'vov' opening which does even more damage in the long term to the Soviets. There is also the challenge of creating your own opening.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/6/2013 11:47:42 AM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Check out some of the AARs and you can see a few. The latest ones of games with MT show the 'expanded L'vov' opening which does even more damage in the long term to the Soviets. There is also the challenge of creating your own opening.


He specifically said he does not want to do the Lvov opener.

As for me, due to me playing the AI exclusively I don't do the Lvov opener. In fact as a rule for myself I don't send units further than about two hexes north of Tarnopol (in order not to cut off the rail line). Thus the direction is pretty much set, similar to the AI opener, although I still send a Panzer Corps from 2nd Panzer Group South. So in effect I complete two little pockets, one at Kovel, the other at Rovno.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/6/2013 1:28:35 PM   
Ketza


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Recently I am using an opener that focuses on cutting rail lines and not doing the Lvow pocket. A pocket is still created at Kovel but turn 2 and 3 are much more enjoyable for both sides.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/6/2013 1:29:03 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cmill

To be more clear, I'm not necessarily looking for a purely historical opening turn for AGS. I guess I'm looking for a middle ground between historical and competitive.

In other words, is there a viable opening move in the south aside from the Lvov Gambit?

The game offers the chance to destroy most of SW Front in the first few turns so therefore, if you want to maintain a competitive edge, you have to do it.
I'd say the most economical way to do it requires only 1st cavalry division and 10th motorized division from 24th pz corps, plus one or both of it's infantry divisions.The four mobile divisions of 1st pz army then have the difficult job of cutting the rail line South of Tarnopol and linking up with 24th pz corps to form the Kovel pocket.It's best to keep at least one mobile unit from 2nd pz army in reserve in case of bad rolls.
With so little armor committed in the South, the Soviet player could decide to make a fight of it and if he's any good this could hold AGS up significantly.In fact the game could start to resemble the real campaign

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/6/2013 7:18:20 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Recently I am using an opener that focuses on cutting rail lines and not doing the Lvow pocket. A pocket is still created at Kovel but turn 2 and 3 are much more enjoyable for both sides.


I've recently seen a screenshot with the foremost axis unit sitting in Proskurow at the end of t1, cutting the only rail line out, but without closing the pocket. Nice move. But how much needs to borrowed from 2.Pz Group ?

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/7/2013 4:51:15 AM   
Ketza


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I usually send 2 Panzer and one SS division as well as the motor regiment mainly to make sure the Kovel pocket is wrapped up tight.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/8/2013 11:12:18 AM   
Balou


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Ketza,
One more question: do your 2ndPz renegades switch Army/Corps HQ ?

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/8/2013 2:34:50 PM   
Ketza


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It may not be the best game choice or needed but I always try and keep my armies organized as I think the designers intended. So when I move the units south I always transfer them to 1st PZ group.

I move the corp HQ to OKH then switch it over to 1st PZ group. Seems to cost less that way AP wise.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/8/2013 3:18:08 PM   
Balou


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Just wonder because then AGS - which is way over budget in CPs - gets an even greater load. It wont have any consequences in the early turns (?), but who knows for sure ?

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/8/2013 4:03:09 PM   
Ketza


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I really don't know. All the threads about disbanding corps HQs make me just "shrug"

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/9/2013 5:55:49 PM   
Klydon


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/Sigh.. I hate this topic, especially when people start playing the "I am not doing the Lvov pocket because it isn't historical" card. Do you also hold the view the Russians MUST stand and even counter attack because that is what they did historically? Do you have the same issues with the Russians when they run away, no matter what opening is used? Russian players who like to win do not do the former and like to do the latter.

For the OP, when do you expect a pocket to be formed if not on the first turn? When is it acceptable? Depending on your answers, imo, the best method (and easiest btw) is to allow no diversion of AGC forces to help AGS for the first couple of turns. Essentially, AGC forces may not move south of the southern most infantry unit for the first couple of turns.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/9/2013 6:09:25 PM   
cmill

 

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@Klydon:

Hey, I'm just trying to have fun. The Lvov pocket isn't fun for me; not necessarily because it isn't historical (but partly) but I suppose because I hate being forced to do a certain move/gambit, etc. to stay competitive. So if I can find a compromise of sorts, than I am hoping I will have more fun.

Thinking outside the box (in this case, outside the Lvov Gambit) is a catalyst for creative thought and different ways of doing things. I was asking because I am not aware of the entire history of the discussion in regards to the Lvov pocket, so if anything, I apologize for my ignorance in this matter - but please don't assume just because it may have been discussed extensively that I was any part of that conversation.

Ultimately, my reasons for avoiding the Lvov pocket don't have to make sense - it's a really a mixture of personal preference, curiosity, and just because it seemed like fun to discuss it.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/9/2013 8:38:42 PM   
carlkay58

 

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The whole point that MT and Sapper have been making is that you can have a different opening and yet not do the 'traditional' L'vov opening and still manage to have a 'killer' opening. One of the points that have been made in the above posts is that there are alternatives that make for an exciting opening that still does the Axis player good. Just keep playing with different ideas until you come up with one that you feel comfortable with and allows you to have fun. I think if you concentrate on cutting the rail lines to the L'vov pocket on Turn 1 and then go deeper and attempt to keep the rail lines cut to the forces streaming out of the pocket, you can have a good series of running battles that keep both the Axis and Soviets on their toes and can be a lot of fun.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/9/2013 9:54:14 PM   
gingerbread


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A delayed Lvov pocket is still a Lvov pocket. In fact, due to that the units usually OOS will draw replacements (in delay option), it bags even more men.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/9/2013 11:53:14 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Yes, but if you extend it the right way the results will be some pretty massive battles to determine whether it gets pocketed or not. And how much gets pocketed.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/10/2013 8:04:23 AM   
Von Weber


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If you avoid Lvov pocket than demand from SHC to make counterattacks by all the mech corps that he has as it was historically

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/11/2013 4:11:16 PM   
Balou


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Question to the History-experts: was a Lvov pocket feasible in June 41? If yes, why not accept any attempts to "(re)create" it? If no, something's over-optimistic with WitE rules.

< Message edited by Balou -- 6/11/2013 5:44:31 PM >

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/11/2013 7:28:16 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Question to the History-experts: was a Lvov pocket feasible in June 41? If yes, why not accept any attempts to "(re)create" it? If no, something's over-optimistic with WitE rules.


The problem is it only works as an experienced axis player knows precisely where the Soviet units are (ok pre-invasion German intelligence on the border armies was good - but not that good) and that they cannot move. Ok the Soviet response in the opening week ranged from incompetent to disastrous but Kirponos did a good job organsing SW Front and managed the first Soviet counterblow by about 26 June.

All it takes is a few inconvenient ZoCs, units in the wrong positions and it falls apart. It also seems to rely on moving AGC units to AGS. Now that may have been what the Germans should have done but its not what their invasion plan was based on.

As to the new invention of sending Panzers through Rumania to destroy S Front - well that is, to me, pure abuse of the rules. S Front is locked as Rumania did not enter the war on 22 June (1 July?) to stop a run away, some players are now committing Panzers from other AG groups via Rumania in a period when technically Rumania was still neutral.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/11/2013 9:34:33 PM   
Balou


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Thanks for giving some historical background. Whether or not it was the german invasion plan, and whatever the soviet response may have been, there is still my question: would Lvov have been feasible IRL with AGS alone ?

BTW:
In WitE a "small" & rock solid pocket via Tarnopol isn't much of a problem - precisely for reasons you mentioned (known enemy positions, zocs, etc). And one doesn't need AGC.


(in reply to loki100)
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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/11/2013 11:01:19 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Thanks for giving some historical background. Whether or not it was the german invasion plan, and whatever the soviet response may have been, there is still my question: would Lvov have been feasible IRL with AGS alone ?

BTW:
In WitE a "small" & rock solid pocket via Tarnopol isn't much of a problem - precisely for reasons you mentioned (known enemy positions, zocs, etc). And one doesn't need AGC.




Could AGS historically have made a drive to the Rumanian border like they can now in WITE? No.

Could AGS with help from AGC have made a drive to the Rumanian border? Different question and one that is open to a lot of different opinion. Some will say not possible at all while others will say it was possible.

There are some issues however. First, WITE can't correctly do the weather like what happen in the real campaign. I have read in numerous places where PG1 was held by ground conditions as a result of storms and a lot of rain off and on. It didn't compare to the muddy season, but it slowed progress down and was a factor.

Another issue is unlike the AGN and AGC battle plans, where most players follow the plans the Germans had in mind for the campaign, there is a tremendous divergence from that in the south. Originally, PG1 and 6th army were supposed to head for the Kiev area and then along the west side of the river to the SE and eventually do a double envelopment with 17th army. Most do not follow this plan at all and instead make the drive to the Romanian border for the most part to trap as many Russian troops as possible.

Interestingly enough, one of the earlier plans was to have a panzer corps stationed in Rumania that would spearhead a offensive drive out of Rumania to meet PG1 along the river for a massive double envelopment. (I have a alternative scenario buried someplace for that). Just before the Balkans campaign, Hitler changed his mind on this point as he thought the Dniestr and some other rivers would be too big of an obstacle. (Turns out that wasn't true).

< Message edited by Klydon -- 6/11/2013 11:11:22 PM >

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/12/2013 7:57:46 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Thanks for giving some historical background. Whether or not it was the german invasion plan, and whatever the soviet response may have been, there is still my question: would Lvov have been feasible IRL with AGS alone ?


As Klydon says, if the entire German OOB is reworked it all enters the realm of opinion and creative writing.

The key is the German mindset, again as Klydon says, their plan was a direct drive to Kiev (the better roads and rail lines run that way, not down to the south so logistically its the easy option). Given the circumstances, Kirponos did a master class of aggressive defense, pulling back, using the rivers mixed with bruising counterstrokes.

AGS turned its Panzers south when it was clear that a direct drive on Kiev was not feasible, they then opened the gap between the less competently led S Front and SW Front and hooked back up the Dniepr, unhinging SW Front's defense of Kiev.

So I'd say (entering the world of creative fiction) that no it was not feasible either due to the troops available or their conceptualisation of the campaign aims.

_____________________________

AARs:
WiTW: Once Upon a Time (somewhere)in the West; Fischia il vento; (oh) For a few Panzers More; XXX Corps Diary; Infamy, Infamy!
Others at AGEOD
PoN: A clear bright sun

(in reply to Balou)
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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/12/2013 2:09:04 PM   
Balou


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Well then lets hope the devs share your opinion (WitE 2.0)...

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/12/2013 3:57:02 PM   
timmyab

 

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With the benefit of hindsight it seems that the German plan in the South was a mistake.The original double envelopment plan would probably have worked in my opinion.

Here's a passage from "THE GERMAN CAMPAIGN IN RUSSIA PLANNING AND OPERATIONS (1940-1942)"

Changes in plan (March-April 1941)
Army Group South
On 18 March Hitler decided that Sixth Army was to carry out the main thrust of Army Group South. The plan for a Twelfth Army advance from Moldavia toward the northeast was abandoned. The German and Romanian units assembling along the Pruth were to tie down the opposing forces and pursue them only in the event that they should withdraw. This change in plan had to be made because Hitler contended that the Dnestr was a formidable obstacle that could not be surmounted by a frontal attack without considerable delay. According to the new plan the powerful left of Army Group South was to punch its way to the Kiev area and approach the Dnestr line from the rear. The forces assembled in Moldavia would have to be sufficiently strong to prevent a Russian penetration into Romania, but this danger did not seem acute since Brauchitsch had expressed the opinion that the Russians would not attack Romania unless they were attacked from Romanian territory. According to Hitler, Hungary was to take no part in Operation BARBAROSSA, and Slovakia was to assist only in the concentration and supply of German troops.The Yugoslav coup d'etat on 26 March induced Hitler to expand the operations in the Balkans by attacking Yugoslavia in addition to Greece. The greater scope of the campaign in the Balkans necessitated that an army headquarters assume control of the occupied territories after the end of hostilities. Twelfth Army, which was in charge of the operations against Greece, was selected for this role, and Eleventh Army was designated as substitute headquarters for the forces assembled in Moldavia.On 30 March 1941 the army group and army commanders reported to Hitler. During this conference the mission of Eleventh Army was discussed, and Hitler ordered the army forces divided into three separate groups, capable of backing up the Romanian divisions in case of need. Since Eleventh Army had thus been given a defensive mission, the motorized forces originally earmarked for that area were transferred to First Panzer Group. The encirclement of the Russian forces in the western Ukraine was to be effected by a single envelopment from the north, during which the armored forces were to thrust to the Dnepr at and south of Kiev, bear southeastward, and follow the bend of the river to its mouth, thus preventing the Russian forces in the western Ukraine from withdrawing across the river.As a result of the foregoing changes, Directive No. 21 had mean while been amended as follows:
Section II, paragraph 3: In conjunction with the German troops assembled on Romanian territory, Romanian troops will tie down the enemy forces opposite their borders and will also lend assistance in maintaining the lines of communications.
Section III, A., paragraph 6: The army group committed south of the Pripyat Marshes will concentrate its main-effort forces in and to the south of the Lublin area for an attack in the general direction of Kiev. From there strong armored forces will thrust deep into enemy territory and envelop the Russian forces by following the course of the lower Dnepr.
The mixed German-Romanian force in the south will have two missions:1. To secure Romania as a base and thus guarantee the continuity of operations in the southern part of the theater; and2. To tie down the opposing enemy forces during the advance of the army group's north wing. In accordance with developments in the situation, the mixed force—supported by Air Force contingents—will launch a pursuit to prevent the Soviets from making an organized withdrawal across the Dnepr.The corresponding changes were also incorporated into the Army's operation order. [See map 5.~] Army Group South was no longer to concentrate its strength on both its wings; instead, it was to strengthen its left so that mobile forces could pace the drive on Kiev, where they were to bear southeastward and destroy—or at least cut off—all enemy forces still in the western Ukraine.The missions of the individual armies were changed as follows:Eleventh Army was to protect Romania against an invasion by Russian troops, tie down the forces opposite the Romanian border by tricking the enemy into believing that major forces were being assembled, and eventually launch a pursuit to prevent the Russians from making an organized withdrawal.Seventeenth Army was to jab with its powerful left, push back the enemy southeastward, and pursue him via Vinnitsa and Berdichev.First Panzer Group was to thrust via Berdichev and Zhitomir toward the Dnepr River at Kiev, and then immediately continue its southeastward drive in order to block the Russian routes of withdrawal.Sixth Army was to screen the north flank of the army group along the Pripyat Marshes and follow First Panzer Group closely up to Zhitomir. Upon receiving specific orders from army group, Sixth Army was to shift strong forces southeastward along the west bank of the Dnepr and join First Panzer Group in the destruction of the Russian forces fighting in the western Ukraine.The difficulties of such an operation, hinging on a single envelopment, were fully realized by the Army High Command. Its success depended essentially upon whether the Russian leaders would react swiftly to the situation. If they recognized the danger in time, major Russian forces would probably get across the Dnepr River—or at least those opposite the Romanian border. The outcome of the offensive in the south therefore seemed doubtful from the outset.

(in reply to cmill)
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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/12/2013 4:52:56 PM   
swkuh

 

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Thanks to several members for the analysis. Compliments.

Seems the Lvov pocket is a little much for what was possible or expected in history. How to prevent it is an interesting problem for developers doing v2.0.

One issue might be the ability of armored corps now going beyond historical possibilities. Could be reined in a bit. Believe German equipment was not up to what the game allows. Breakdowns, supply difficulties, Soviet resistance, etc. could be increased. Of course, the balance factors might do most of this, but vanilla settings should reflect historical reality.

(in reply to timmyab)
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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/12/2013 10:41:43 PM   
Klydon


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As I have pointed out in the past, you do have to be careful when looking at distance, etc. A German drive to the Rumanian border is actually a shorter distance over easier terrain compared to what PG2 and PG3 did in the center to get to the Minsk area and close the trap on the Western Front.

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RE: AGS alternate/historical opening (or not using the ... - 6/12/2013 11:11:32 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

As I have pointed out in the past, you do have to be careful when looking at distance, etc. A German drive to the Rumanian border is actually a shorter distance over easier terrain compared to what PG2 and PG3 did in the center to get to the Minsk area and close the trap on the Western Front.


Never mind all that, it did not happen historically, therefore it is impossible

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