Monsoon Effects

[John 3rd]

Hello.

I wrote this Posting once and deleted it because it became a total RANT that would have done no one any good.

Subject: Burma and the Monsoon

For those who don't read Dan and I's AARs, the situation revolves around movement and supply in the Burma Region during the Monsoon. For anyone who has read on this subject you know that nearly all offensive operations in Burma slowed to a near halt during the six months of the monsoon. Airpower rarely was able to do a lot within the affected area, and movement along any form of trail or road was nearly impossible.

I don't believe the game reflects this whatsoever.

My noble opponent has amassed a huge army that is effectively driving the IJA crazy! The fact that both sides can move normally, stay supplied THROUGH THE JUNGLE, and use a tremendous amount of airpower defies the imagination.

I want to ask for commentary and if you use any form of House Rules to better reflect the Monsoon Season?

I tried using an EXTREME set that is too much and will Post them with my next entry.

Thoughts?

[John 3rd]

These go way too far but they DID slow down the craziness of the Burma Theatre in several games years ago:

Burma/NE India Monsoon Rules
Offensive operations in jungle and mountain hexes on the Burmese front should be stopped from June 15th to November 1st for the Monsoon Season, allowing R&R, unit rotations, and give both players on the front a much less bloody (and much more interesting) experience. This would mean:

1. No shock attack in the jungle hexes in the designated area
2. Deliberate and Shock Attacks allowed in non-Jungle Terrain
3. Bombardment attacks are still allowed anywhere
4. Movement into friendly or empty hexes are still allowed
5. Movement is done in Combat ALWAYS unless on a Railroad when Strategic Movement is allowed.
6. The number of aircraft allowed to fly from a base is reflected in its sizex10 (Sz-5 mean 50% can fly. The others may rest/train.
7. No offensive carrier operations in the Gulf of Bengal against Burma (other naval ops, including bombardment, are still allowed). Striking either Bengal, Northern India or Malaya from carriers in the Gulf is still allowed, of course.

Hexes would be corresponding to everything above the "Thailand" label within Burmese and Thailandese borders + the few jungle hexes going 3 or 4 hexes into "India" (Kohima, Ledo, Imphal area)

[Canoerebel]

I have no problem with Burma at all. While what can happen there isn't historical, that matches the game most nearly anywhere. Both sides have roughly similar capabilities in Burma - unlike some other theaters - so it's an interesting place. If I was in a game in which an opponent demanded a reduction of activity in Burma, I'd demand concessions in China, where the sitaution can be very unhistoric and tough on the Allies.

To me, the game right now offeres an interesting and challenging balance of capabilities, problems, and opportunities. It's a fun mix, so I wouldn't tinker with balance in a major way at this point.

[JocMeister]

Both me and my opponent have something like a 500.000 man army in Burma. Plausible, nah. But not much is in this game.

[John 3rd]

I am not proposing any changes in our match. That would be wrong. Just want to get a discussion rolling on other people's thoughts, ideas, and what they try to do with this issue.

[Canoerebel]

I know. That's the same way I was replying. I wouldn't tinker with AE matches now by making big house rules for the theater. Doing wholesale dramatic changes in one theater without doing them in all the others would just skew the game balance, which is a tenuous thing at any time, but especially so after four years of playing and adjusting and tweaking.

[John 3rd]

The thing that gets me is that the game does not accurately model the extremes in weather either in Burma or in the Aleutians.

[Canoerebel]

The game doesn't model alot of things, but it has reached the point where it has a balance that most players can live with. Any major tinkering risks throwing that delicate balance off.

[zuluhour]

The ground combat in Burma had alot to do with infiltration, something very difficult to recreate on brigade scale with such large hexes and stringent hex side control. The allied air supply effort is not portrayed well either as the RAF and later USAF were very precise and reliable suppling forward units. 2 cents from the peanut gallery.

[GreyJoy]

Supply CAN be a problem in Burma, both for Japan and for the allies.
 
For the IJN, with a mod that doesn't allow the refineries to produce supplies, every single drop of supply must be shipped to Rangoon all the way from Japan...and it's a long and expensive travel!
Also, even if you have enough supplies at Rangoon, then you have to build every single base in northern burma if you want the supplies to be shipped to the front lines. It's impossible to supply a big IJ army 2 or 3 hexes far from any big base. You can fight, sure, but you cannot expect not to be "in red"... and so your armies will suffer penalties for not being fully supplied...your disabled squads won't recover...etc etc...
 
Same is true for the allies. Doesn't matter how many units DAN has in Burma. What matters is how much supplies can be shipped to those units. IF the allies manage to build their Assam bases to the max (pretty easy for the allies) then supplies CAN be shipped even during Monsoon season. It's up to the IJ guy to make them fight in places where the supplies doesn't move fast enough to support any serious ground operation.
 
I think Burma is a very interesting place to fight, as is china. with all due respect John, i think those who hate CBI really don't understand well the land warfare system of this great game.
 
just my 0,00000000000002 cents

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I don't believe the game reflects this whatsoever.

Yes. You're right. There have been some mods that have tried to address this, but supply movement through jungles in Burma is similar to that across the Owen Stanleys in deepest darkest P/NG. The fact that it can happen sufficient to supply HUGE armies belies common sense or history.

My noble opponent has amassed a huge army that is effectively driving the IJA crazy! While the sheer number of units is a different issue, the fact that both sides can move normally, stay supplied THROUGH THE JUNGLE, and use a tremendous amount of airpower defies the imagination.

I want to ask for commentary and if you use any form of House Rules to better reflect the Monsoon Season?

I tried using an EXTREME set that is too much and will Post them with my next entry.

Thoughts?

Your House Rules probably are too much. Way too complicated-I don't want to have to read a legal treatise before considering the tactical deployment of my forces every turn. I think the date observance would be amenable, provided it were agreed upon before gamestart. Once the Allies get up a head of steam here, I wouldn't expect them to agree to any houserule that will limit their offensive powers.

Like all HRs, John, you should be expected to give a bit too-what do you envision offering to the Allies to encourage acceptance of this HR?

[Chickenboy]

John,

Does your game HRs limit deployment of Thai and Indian restricted troops? A common HR is that these restricted troops must either stay within their national borders, or within X hexes of their national borders or be bought out with PP (where practical). This would at least limit the abilities of the Allied player to dump a bunch of restricted Indian troops into Burma and slow the ground war. Similarly, the IJ would have only limited help from the Thai here, because these units are permanently restricted.

[Nemo121]

The modelling of monsoon in Burma and winter effects in NORPAC is not brilliant but neither is the modelling of a lot of other things in-game. At the very least the ability to push supplies through terrible terrain is an issue which benefits and hinders both sides.

Some people are able to push major operations through jungle, others aren't. The difference is due to player skill in managing logistics, not some unfair balance issue which skews the game one way or another.

I'd be rather leery of someone looking to HR monsoon without including in that HR package lots of other HRs for the myriad other aspects of the game which are at least as equally flawed.


In the specific situation it appears to be that the offensive has been made possible by logistical support in addition to what is being pushed overland through the jungle so the initial issues/rant/whatever really doesn't have any legs to stand on.

[JeffroK]

Comparing supply movement through the Indaia/Burma border area is nothing like PNG/Kokoda Track.
While the terrain in Burma is severe, there was enough terrain capable of supporting road building, the bigger problem being rivers like the Chindwin which would take a major bridging effort.

A very good reason why I dont do PBEM, is JIII's self admitted more polite rant about his getting poor results.

I would have dropped him as an opponent by now.

Add to this that this is HIS Mod, that he knows all of the extras available in the game.

Grow up JIII, stop whining and use the power that the game, and your mod in particular gives to the JFB.

[John 3rd]

Nemo: Good to see you Posting and back with us. Though we've had our differences it is good to have your voice back within the Forum. Think it was missed by many.

Jeff: I'll not even respond to the rudeness of your Post. Don't think I am the one who needs to be pleasant, collegial/civil, and 'grow-up.'

To me this Thread is similar to the uncoordinated sweeps discussion.

I am not getting poor results at all. I feel that Dan has had his hands full as he has moved this massed force into the Theatre. What I am saying--as stated ABOVE--is that this impacts both sides and is not well modeled within the game. As agreed to by many players who are far better then me, it is not handled well by the game itself. The HR I Posted above was tried in a couple of games after a lengthy discussion some years ago where 5-6 of us agreed to give it a try. Does anyone remember that? Was quite a while ago. The effort was to slow down the crazy see-saw of massed armies sweeping each direction throughout the campaign (Monsoon and Dry). As clearly stated in my first couple of Posts, the HR were too complex and extreme and were dropped.

Would also add that this Mod is not just mine. Many good players and designers have contributed to its creation: FatR, the Babes Designers, JWE (Symon: beyond the Babes role he has), Red Lancer, NY Giants, Juan G, our China OOB contributor, as well as many others. This is a Naval Mod and not primarily a ground war scenario. Most of those modifications were made by other people then me and sometimes come as a surprise (Good and bad! [:D]). Think that Dan has made a fantastic demonstration that though this is a IJN enhanced Mod it is not all powerful. It is nothing like Scenario Two with all of its IJA Goodies. The Southern Paddler has done great things to make this a wild-and-crazy match. It has been and is a blast to play.

The intent of this thread was to look for suggestions from other players about their thoughts on the subject and see if anyone else handled it differently.

[ny59giants]

The area between India/Burma comes down to supply flow through and into bases. I'm having trouble getting it to flow from those heavily build up bases in India to the bases north of Mandalay, especially Shwebo. My troops in non-bases hexes have full supplies most turns. My transport planes are working overtime, but don't seem to be able to do much.

To slow down having huge armies in Burma, even with stacking limits may have only one other possible answer. Almost all the hexes in northern Burma 'may' need to dot bases with AFs at 0(0) to slow down operations.

[Canoerebel]

I'm not an expert on WWII in this theater, so I don't deal from a strong base of knowledge in discussing what was historical and what was possible. Nevertheless, I think there are some important qualifiers here.

First, for the Allies in the real war, Assam was a backwater until sometime in 1944, I think. I think the Americans wanted the Brits to be more active, but the Brits didn't feel the same way for many reasons. Partly as a result of this, Japan held Akyab and Ramree Island until late in the war.

But what if the Americans and British had turned Assam into a high-priority theater? What if they had secured Akyab and Ramree at the start of the war and built them very large very early? What if they had poured in troops and engineers and supplies? Had they done so, I think it's within the realm of possibility that they could have overcome some of the limiting monsson effects. Certainly, to me, this falls within the real of "what if the Japanese army and navy had cooperated" or "what if Japan had turned most of its airforce loose in China and the Allies had completely failed to react"?

Also, the Allies haven't turned loose a massive army in Upper Burma (at least not yet) Of the 75 units in that theater, half of them are located at Akyab and Ramree Island, which are big bases supplied mainly by sea. I think John has as many (and perhaps more) units in Burma.

As an Allied player, I would not agree to further house rules in Burma without similar concessions by Japan elsewhere. I agree with Poultry Lad that House Rules are intrinsically non-fun to keep up with. In the spirit of the Moose's current PBEM, it might be better to do away with them entirely.

[Bullwinkle58]

I agree with CR's main point. Game Burma is a tautology: Giant armies are driven through Burma by Japan and the Allies because the Allies and Japan drive huge armies through Burma.

Burma was a secondary theater. It played a secondary role in the defeat of Japan. Play the game that way and the monsoon fades into the background as an issue.

IMO one big reason Burma is in the forefront in many games is that the Allies can't do much elsewhere in 1942, and they don't want to play 365 turns of moving logistics ships around and building air fields.

I also dream of the day when more Allied players do an historical CentPac and learn to love amphib operations, instead of slogging through the DEI for two years, undertaking 1000-plane air battles over "key" bases like Babo, and running 10-ID invasions at northern NG.

[John 3rd]

Good thoughts to all three of you.

Michael and I have spoken about Burma a lot and chatted about different ideas from time-to-time.

Dan: You are SOOOO right there. The British were so terrified of losing manpower and defending Home that they simply couldn't put much into it without fear of great calamity.

The Moose's 3rd and 4th Points are spot-on. I've never really given serious thought to the reality that Burma (China as well) is pretty much it when it comes to continuos contact with the Japanese from roughly Day ONE.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Hello.

I wrote this Posting once and deleted it because it became a total RANT that would have done no one any good.

Subject: Burma and the Monsoon

For those who don't read Dan and I's AARs, the situation revolves around movement and supply in the Burma Region during the Monsoon. For anyone who has read on this subject you know that nearly all offensive operations in Burma slowed to a near halt during the six months of the monsoon. Airpower rarely was able to do a lot within the affected area, and movement along any form of trail or road was nearly impossible.

I don't believe the game reflects this whatsoever.

My noble opponent has amassed a huge army that is effectively driving the IJA crazy! The fact that both sides can move normally, stay supplied THROUGH THE JUNGLE, and use a tremendous amount of airpower defies the imagination.

I want to ask for commentary and if you use any form of House Rules to better reflect the Monsoon Season?

I tried using an EXTREME set that is too much and will Post them with my next entry.

Thoughts?

no idea if any of the beta patches is any different to the latest official patch I have been using in my PBEMs but as the Allied, I never care about monsoon or not. And I never have any problem of moving supply from India to Burma or Burma to China respectively, it probably just comes down to how much you lose for moving supply, which is something I don't care as the Allied as I got millions of tons of supply to be shipped/moved around the map.

Not realistic to me but that's just how it is and instead of trying to enhance supply moving in my game (which is something I don't do anyway) I should try to limit supply movement (which is something I hardly could do). And as long as supply just flows to your huge Armies you can fight whenever you want. You don't have to be a logistical expert like one stated as all it needs is to just ship supply India and have enough of it around Calcutta, the game will do the rest.