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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system?

 
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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/26/2013 9:59:10 PM   
Speeder

 

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Erik, another behavior that I saw that really annoyed me...

I went to conquer someone system with two planets (actually it was someone homeworld, and the third strongest homeworld in the game)

I DID conquered the homeworld, and decided to quickly get my troops back to use somewhere else...

I order my fleet to load troops.

What they do?

Well, one of them (only one) jumped to a enemy defense platform (on the other planet that I did not conquered yet).

It started to get pounded, so I had to interrupt the others and attempt to save the suicidal guy...

What they do? Each one teleport to a different place, and one of them decide to escape, and another don't...

In the end I had to select the ships without selecting them as a fleet, and tell to them all attack the same defense platform.

AFTER killing all remaing bases on the system, the ships finally let me load my troops :/

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/26/2013 10:20:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Please upload a save file.

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/26/2013 10:53:10 PM   
Bingeling

 

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I don't think there is a universally good solution to stances.

If there is a "do not engage" it is a special case solution. For the times you want to hang around in a system with enemies present. The trap here is that as Adam Solo pointed out, stances love to reset themselves, but this can of course be solved.

But once my fleet leaves that system, I would almost always want them to revert to default stance (kill stuff). Ships "sitting around" are bad enough when it comes to reacting to hostiles, without a "do nothing" stance sticking that forces them not to react when they finally wake up...

I guess the closest thing to useful would be a "do nothing stance" that sticks until the fleet is given a new order. After that it reverts to default behavior and you need to engage it again if they should "do nothing" after moving.

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/26/2013 10:59:31 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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We're going to do another pass through stances and postures once the Shadows-specific issues are addressed. All input and suggestions are welcome towards that goal.

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 1:50:55 AM   
Speeder

 

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By the way, I did stumbled into the previously mentioned bug...

I return to playing the game I mentioned before, and while loading from a planet I told the fleet to attack only when attacked back...

And they still went suicidal...

Then I paid more attention, and noticed that as soon I gave tem any order, or they finished the current order, the defaults kicked in again.

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 2:54:57 AM   
feelotraveller


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Like Adam I would like to be able to give each ship an enduring (or default) stance which continues from mission to mission unless I change it.  Even better would be to be able to specify the default stances for each ship for each type of mission (from the ships and bases screen, allowing the empire settings to be the default for new ships?).  This would allow customising the stance for different ships/fleets.  For example it would be good to be able to have my raider fleets maintain an 'engage system targets' stance while one resupply ship maintains an 'engage when attacked' stance and another an 'attack nearby targets' stance. 

(I generally play fully manual so have no idea how this might interact with the other components of ship/fleet automation.  Currently I set all default stances to 'engage when attacked' as a lesser of evils, so that my ships are neither lame ducks nor are they kamikazes.  It does mean that at times my defence fleets fail to react and my attack fleets can end up dispersed or in the interstellar void.) 

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 4:09:13 AM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adamsolo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I have no issues with keeping manual control.

I, on the other hand, have many issues keeping manual control. I have a save that I can supply where it's Impossible to keep a fleet on a designated spot (at least I can't), irrespective of the posture/stance, range I choose. After a while, probably because they're attacked by enemies, some elements of the fleet leave the rendezvous point and decide to assault the enemy space port on the other side of the system. I tried defend/minimal range/only when attacked and other passive combinations to no effect.


Probably a silly question but have you looked in the options screen? Click Empire Settings, the default AI stances for ships are in there, never tried them myself as I do not have the problem but there is one for other that might be the one you are looking for.

Here is how I control fleets for engagement.

In the options screen click Empire Settings change the refuel and regroup settings both to 90. I do this for every game so once set you can forget about it.
Lets say I have two fleets, Attack 01 (attack ships) and Invade 01 (transport ships).
Attack 01 is on the 1 key and Invade 01 is on the 0 key
I now select the enemy system that I wish to conquer by zooming out just to the point that I can click on the system and it becomes highlighted with a circle around it. Now click on the info box to center the view, next I send Attack 01, press 1 and right click just outside that system circle, Attack 01 should now have a 'Move to ...' command. Now do the same for Invade 01. Both fleets are now 'parked' outside the system you wish to attack and will not move (the fuel setting in the options screen helps with this as well)
Now that I have my fleets parked I select the system again that they are parked out side and check the info box for the planet, click on the planet to center it and press the home key to go direct to the planet. If you have researched Proximity sensors you should be able to see any defenses the planet may have, press 1 for Attack 01 and right hand on the planet or any base, defensive base and select 'Prepare and Attack ...'Attack 01 will now move to attack that target while Invade 01 waits, once the once the planet is 90% cleared of defenses I press 0 for Invade 01 and right click the planet, press 1 again to select Attack 01, just to make sure the way is clear for the troops.
Rinse and repeat for the rest of the galaxy. Once you get used to doing it this way you can gauge how close you can park your fleets before they start to move to intercept other enemies in a system and also how long to leave it before calling in the transport fleet for invasion, one other thing to note is once the invasion is underway issue an order for your transport fleet to orbit the planet you are attacking and check there engagement order is 'engage when attacked' that does a fairly reasonable job of keeping them out of trouble.
The best thing about this method of control with fleets is that you can order multiple fleets to sit outside systems, I quite often in mid game invade 8-10 systems at the same time, the fact that the fleets can be parked up just outside a system means that you can send them and not worry about them moving, while your fleets are moving into position you can do other things, then once war is underway you can hit the enemy at multiple fronts and it loses systems on multiple fronts all at the same time, as the war weariness is always adding up this way ensures a clean decisive victory in the shortest possible time.

Darkspire

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 10:55:10 AM   
adamsolo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire


quote:

ORIGINAL: adamsolo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I have no issues with keeping manual control.

I, on the other hand, have many issues keeping manual control. I have a save that I can supply where it's Impossible to keep a fleet on a designated spot (at least I can't), irrespective of the posture/stance, range I choose. After a while, probably because they're attacked by enemies, some elements of the fleet leave the rendezvous point and decide to assault the enemy space port on the other side of the system. I tried defend/minimal range/only when attacked and other passive combinations to no effect.


The best thing about this method of control with fleets is that you can order multiple fleets to sit outside systems, I quite often in mid game invade 8-10 systems at the same time, the fact that the fleets can be parked up just outside a system means that you can send them and not worry about them moving, while your fleets are moving into position you can do other things, then once war is underway you can hit the enemy at multiple fronts and it loses systems on multiple fronts all at the same time, as the war weariness is always adding up this way ensures a clean decisive victory in the shortest possible time.

Darkspire

Thanks for your reply Darkspire. I see what you mean with the "park fleets outside systems" tactic, I've done that myself, and the fleets don't move, it's true. However, as I explained some posts before, there should be a way to keep fleets immobile even when inside enemy systems (in any place in the galaxy really). I did my best to explain the issue here.

The problem in my view, at the moment, is that the game overrides stances and applies the default stance set on the Empire settings that you've pointed out. That shouldn't happen with manually controlled fleets. Your manual fleets should keep the stance of your choice religiously at all times, until one of two things happen: a) you choose another stance; b) you decide to automate the fleet.

So, if you choose the "attack only when attacked" stance, the fleet should keep the stance no matter what, even if the default stance is "attack system targets". The game shouldn't override the manually set stance on a manually controlled fleet. I think that's the way it should work for manual fleets.

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 11:19:44 AM   
Bingeling

 

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I must admit, though, that I find only one good reason to assemble a fleet inside an enemy system. And that is to bait the opposing AI into stupidity. If the assembled does not shoot back it limits this a tad, but...

The only thing you lose by assembling in dead space outside the system (apart form an easy target to aim fleets at), is some in system scouting, and the possibility to kill defending ships before you engage the static structures.

In such systems defending ships should sit beneath the spaceport, or at least inside defensive bases, and only strike at close targets, or head out to kill carriers of the attackers that hang back away from other ships. This game is lacking in fleet tactics, though, and that is mostly just fine. It has other stuff instead.

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 11:45:31 AM   
adamsolo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I must admit, though, that I find only one good reason to assemble a fleet inside an enemy system. And that is to bait the opposing AI into stupidity. If the assembled does not shoot back it limits this a tad, but...


I imagine that the issue is not only when assembling attack fleets on enemy systems. While defending, if a manual fleet is set to "engage nearby targets", because what they're defending is more important than what's happening in the rest of the system, that fleet should not get its stance overridden to "system targets" if that's the global default stance on the Empire Settings. And, you may want the global default to be "system targets"! Because that's the global default for your all empire.

Do you see the issue? The defaults are global, the game resets manual stances to the global automatically. You may want the global to be more active than passive but still want your manual fleets to keep the stances. I guess I'm not the only one who would like my fleets to keep the stance I designate. If that's easy to implement I think it would make sense, unless that provokes some conflict with the fleet's automation system that I'm not aware of. Because again, I like to keep my fleets, at least the main ones, in manual. You may have a different preference, of course.


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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 12:02:01 PM   
Bingeling

 

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I see lots of issues with resetting stances too, I have just give up on them.

On defense the problems are numerous. I want my defending fleets present at the target, but have to be very careful to give the correct orders so they sit at the target. "Move to planet" is the safe way to end up moving alongside it. This must also be done after exiting yards from repairs and such. If not, they sit still while the planet moves away.

If "nearby" works, the fleet leader could still be the one to react, and chase a bit. If he wanders far enough away, he will not return, and the others will come to him.

If they sit on top of the colony, they will probably not prevent some raiders landing unless I am there myself. If I am, it depends a bit on the number of raiders, and the exact positions of the incoming and defending ships.

If you want to avoid assembling in a system, and sneak an invasion in under the nose of defenders, one requirement is somewhat speedy troop transports. Otherwise I bet that a few explorers dropping in at various points of the system edges some 15 seconds before troop transports land, will do the trick. Defenders will not be at home.

For an attack on colony defenses, refueling fleets on final approach are the most dangerous. They will be oblivious to the world until refueled, and exit the spaceport ready for battle at the early stages of the battle. I find it ironic that sloppy AI response can help the AI in this case.

This image:



The defenders arrived just before the attackers. The lone attacking troop transport is top left, just behind two defending ships. The defenders have order "move to Ataxx...". Do you think they would have stopped the troop drop without manual orders? Maybe. But the attackers would get close, that is my bet. The 3 up left shot down the troop transport, others ganged up on nearby cruisers, and frigates were left until last (no manual orders beyond the initial targetting). I have yet to see an AI frigate with troop modules

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RE: How I assemble a fleet into a enemy system? - 5/27/2013 12:14:22 PM   
Banquet

 

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Would it be possible to have a 'formation' option for each fleet? If we follow navy procedures the smaller ships would be in position on the outer edge of the fleet, screening for the capital ships. Just because they can move faster, doesn't mean they should! A formation could be set for each fleet to have capital and screening ships in various positions and they'd attempt to keep that shape. Then perhaps separate orders could be given for screening and capital ships. I.e, screening ships could be ordered to protect cap ships, or to close range, etc... while cap ships could have orders to keep long range, close range, board, etc...

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