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Something wicked this way comes...

 
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Something wicked this way comes... - 5/18/2013 12:22:52 AM   
Capn Darwin


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Not the places you want to be...




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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 6/27/2013 5:53:53 AM   
RyanCrierie


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How well are you going to simulate the effects of nuclear devices?

They're a lot more complex than a simple "god hammer" that destroys everything -- the height of the nuclear burst determines a lot of the effects, and the terrain plays an important role in deciding what happens.

For example, the terrain can actually increase or decrease the amount of damage the airblast does by funneling it away or into an area -- Nagasaki had less area destroyed IIRC than Hiroshima, despite Nagasaki having a more powerful device dropped on it; because Nagasaki's mountainous terrain helped shield some areas from the device.

EDIT: What about Chemicals as well?

During the Cold War, the mass use of chemical weapons to blanket areas was a serious concern for rotary winged operations, because helicopters flew much lower to the ground than fixed wing aircraft, and 'nap of the earth' flight would have them pass through valleys and such where chemical vapors would concentrate.

There even was a simulation programmed in 1987 for this: 3DHZD - Three Dimensional Chemical Hazard Model, which was described as:

3DHZD is used primarily to determine the dimensions of the vapor hazard to low flying aviators from threat chemical attacks.

< Message edited by RyanCrierie -- 6/27/2013 6:04:35 AM >


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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 6/27/2013 3:04:18 PM   
Mad Russian


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Hey Ryan,

At a tactical level of 500 meters per hex a nuclear weapon is pretty much a 'God Hammer'. Tactical battlefield nuclear weapons are not the same as strategic delivery systems. They are designed to impact the battlefield in a restricted area. There are both blast and contamination effects modeled in our tac nukes.

Chemical comes in both persistent and non-persistent deliveries.

Good Hunting.

MR



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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 6/27/2013 3:48:33 PM   
Capn Darwin


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Ryan,
To add to MR's comments above, although the nuke strike is abstracted in many ways, we do consider terrain, NBC worthiness of the sub units, effects on morale and readiness and impact on combat capabilities. Units surviving a NBC attack are also listed as contaminated. This will impact them the rest of the game and possibly into the next in a campaign.

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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 11/22/2013 7:07:48 PM   
pzgndr

 

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To chime in here, there is a significant difference between a ground burst that creates contamination and an air burst that does not. In looking over the rules in 12.4.1, the nuclear strike abstraction assumes ground burst contamination for all strikes. Most strikes would probably have been at an optimal hieght of burst to preclude contamination and allow friendly forces to transit the area after the strike. If area denial was the goal then a ground burst would work. Without getting too complicated, a nuclear strike option for ground burst or air burst could be considered in a future enhancement? Just a thought.

In reality, West Germany was very sensitive to any NATO plans for contaminating the battlefield. One they didn't want their populace to suffer, and two they wanted counter-attacks to eventually push the Soviets back. So the NATO player should probably be restricted to air bursts. The Soviets, on the other hand, weren't too concerned about opinions and may have used ground bursts to secure their flanks. But they weren't stupid either, so would have hit NATO defenses with air bursts so they could then drive through them. So the Soviet player could have an option and use it accordingly.

Regardless, if you ever get into WMD, you're playing a different game.

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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 11/23/2013 3:31:45 AM   
cbelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

To chime in here, there is a significant difference between a ground burst that creates contamination and an air burst that does not. In looking over the rules in 12.4.1, the nuclear strike abstraction assumes ground burst contamination for all strikes. Most strikes would probably have been at an optimal hieght of burst to preclude contamination and allow friendly forces to transit the area after the strike. If area denial was the goal then a ground burst would work. Without getting too complicated, a nuclear strike option for ground burst or air burst could be considered in a future enhancement? Just a thought.

In reality, West Germany was very sensitive to any NATO plans for contaminating the battlefield. One they didn't want their populace to suffer, and two they wanted counter-attacks to eventually push the Soviets back. So the NATO player should probably be restricted to air bursts. The Soviets, on the other hand, weren't too concerned about opinions and may have used ground bursts to secure their flanks. But they weren't stupid either, so would have hit NATO defenses with air bursts so they could then drive through them. So the Soviet player could have an option and use it accordingly.

Regardless, if you ever get into WMD, you're playing a different game.

That an air burst does not create a contaminated area is not exactly true. The amount and size would be determined by the yield and the distance above the ground, but you would have contamination in the area underneath the blast. You just wouldn't have the fallout area that you would have in a ground bust. I believe that the game represents the contamination of an air burst. When the bomb is detonated the only area you see contaminated is the area under the blast. There is no fallout in the game after the blast. Scenario designers can "paint" a fallout area on the map if they so choose, but the nuclear blast in the game does not do so. I too believe that both sides would choose air burst in most cases because fallout is hard to control and not always easy to predict. Also, a dirty battlefield makes it just as hard for the Soviets to maneuver as it would NATO.

The part of the game that is not represented is the EMP pulse that would likely fry any and all electronic equipment in the area. NATO would have a bigger disadvantage here as they had more electronics in their equipment than the Soviets.

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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 11/23/2013 6:08:38 AM   
Mad Russian


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You'll notice that there isn't a plethora of scenarios that have MWD in them. There is a single scenario where there is a nuclear option. Which as you have pointed out would have been difficult to have gotten authorization for.

What you find far more often in the scenarios is chemical contamination. That's because it's my belief that the Soviets wouldn't have been concerned with the chemical option. In fact, there are several things that would have gone in their favor with it's use.

You will find traces of chemical contamination in several of the current scenarios and I would expect to continue to see it's presence throughout the range of coming scenarios/campaigns as well.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 11/23/2013 12:20:03 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva
I believe that the game represents the contamination of an air burst.
The part of the game that is not represented is the EMP pulse .


For this game it's probably good enough. Since there isn't much WMD presented anyways it's pretty much a moot point.


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RE: Something wicked this way comes... - 11/23/2013 3:56:46 PM   
Capn Darwin


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After reading a bit more on the subject, we may need to reduce the nuke contamination radius, but keep the smoke effects. I'll be adding this to our tracking system to correct the effect.

Thanks for pointing that out!

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 11/23/2013 6:28:27 PM >


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