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RE: Beginner questions

 
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RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 10:55:17 PM   
HexHead

 

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Or, you can do the following, as I, over a span of time, have done and after a point, realized that there's actually a tutorial method:

Pregame: try a GC if you can't help it (I coldn't). Then, after you in a muddle, start with

1) Run the coral sea scenario as the Allies. Try to sink his troop convoy without losing your carriers. Run it as Japan & paste the americans. Good - you now know how to sink & get sunk by flight decks.

2) Run 1000 Mile scenario as US. Get your guys from A to B and invade and conquer Kiska & Attu. Your invasion troops are 100% prepped, so you don't have to choose Objectives. Now you know how to get across a puddle and kick sandcastles.

3) Now invest some time and run Guadalcanal. You're all loaded for bear & ready to take Gualcanal & Tulagi at the start (US). You willlearn how to sestablish and supply a Base and conduct two Ops at once, 'cuz Port Moresby is involved, too.

Try something like that & you'll get the mechanics.

HH

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 31
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:21:13 PM   
mantrain

 

Posts: 395
Joined: 9/3/2008
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[/quote]
If I may(gently) suggest something: this is about the fourth question you've asked which shows you haven't read the manual. It's not optional for this game. Really. You'll save yourself a lot of time if you sit down and read it cover to cover.
[/quote]

Seriously, lot's of questions on this board could be avoided possibly by reading the 300 page manual. no I have not read it cover to cover. But I did print and bind it.

Also your did cause me to pull out the manual though. I wish it would have covered more on practical advise.

< Message edited by mantrain -- 5/7/2013 11:26:07 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 32
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:28:24 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8649
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Or, you can do the following, as I, over a span of time, have done and after a point, realized that there's actually a tutorial method:

Pregame: try a GC if you can't help it (I coldn't). Then, after you in a muddle, start with

1) Run the coral sea scenario as the Allies. Try to sink his troop convoy without losing your carriers. Run it as Japan & paste the americans. Good - you now know how to sink & get sunk by flight decks.

2) Run 1000 Mile scenario as US. Get your guys from A to B and invade and conquer Kiska & Attu. Your invasion troops are 100% prepped, so you don't have to choose Objectives. Now you know how to get across a puddle and kick sandcastles.

3) Now invest some time and run Guadalcanal. You're all loaded for bear & ready to take Gualcanal & Tulagi at the start (US). You willlearn how to sestablish and supply a Base and conduct two Ops at once, 'cuz Port Moresby is involved, too.

Try something like that & you'll get the mechanics.

HH


But you won't be really good at the game. Too much is covered in the tables and Appendices that isn't apparent watching a combat replay.

I took a different route, but essentially about the same up to playing Guad. Never did that. But I had played three GC's of WITP to finish. There are posts archived here from 2009 with me joking about not reading the manual. Until I did and realized how much I didn't know after mastering WITP.

You can hack around without it. You can't really play. You certainly can't play a human who HAS read it, and win.

_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 33
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:29:29 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantrain


If I may(gently) suggest something: this is about the fourth question you've asked which shows you haven't read the manual. It's not optional for this game. Really. You'll save yourself a lot of time if you sit down and read it cover to cover.


Seriously, lot's of questions on this board could be avoided possibly by reading the 300 page manual. no I have not read it cover to cover. But I did print and bind it.

Also your did cause me to pull out the manual though. I wish it would have covered more on practical advise.


People here will be glad to discuss tactics and strategy until the cows come home. But most won't answer "How do I load ships?" It's in the manual.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/7/2013 11:38:29 PM >


_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 34
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:40:05 PM   
HexHead

 

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I thought that last point would be in there. Speaking as someone who was an AI guy for a while, how did you find a human? Had you played any PBEM before?

BTW, that was more a conversational 'or', than a choice. It's just something I've done, rather recently. It's good for mechanics, if nothing else. I did read the manual - enuff, at one point. I could certainly stand to reread it.

GreyJoy vs Rader is actually pretty informative, at least for a the part I'm up to.

Oh, I should add - I have played an AE PBEM - got up to late Jan 42 when my IJ oppo took PM. RL interruptus at that point. I'd like to convert that file to an AI file.

< Message edited by HexHead -- 5/7/2013 11:42:34 PM >


_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 35
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:45:38 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

I thought that last point would be in there. Speaking as someone who was an AI guy for a while, how did you find a human? Had you played any PBEM before?

BTW, that was more a conversational 'or', than a choice. It's just something I've done, rather recently. It's good for mechanics, if nothing else. I did read the manual - enuff, at one point. I could certainly stand to reread it.

GreyJoy vs Rader is actually pretty informative, at least for a the part I'm up to.


I'm playing my first ever PBEM now. I have an AAR. The first post talks a little about the why. My opponents wanted ad a lot more verbose.

In short, I wanted a different challenge, and I wanted to prove you can play the GAME to win, with no HRs, and do fine.

I've only read the manual cover-to-cover once, but I read pieces every week. I read some today as a matter of fact.

I started a new AI game today with different setting than I've ever played before, to fill in between turns. I tried for the second time to play as Japan, but I just can't do it. According to some I will never be an expert until I can. I don't see that happening though.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/7/2013 11:46:28 PM >


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The Moose

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Post #: 36
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:52:07 PM   
HexHead

 

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If ya wanna fiddle with production and play alternate reality scenarios, the IJ side is prolly yer bet.

The Allies are all about "bend don't break" and coming back in the late innings.

Really that simple, IMO.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 37
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:54:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

If ya wanna fiddle with production and play alternate reality scenarios, the IJ side is prolly yer bet.

The Allies are all about "bend don't break" and coming back in the late innings.

Really that simple, IMO.


The production system isn''t the problem. I can't play the culture. I can't sink USN ships. And especially subs.

_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 38
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:56:15 PM   
HexHead

 

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You're just an emotional mess.

You must be ruthless, antlering.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 39
RE: Beginner questions - 5/7/2013 11:58:01 PM   
mantrain

 

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pray tell me gentlemen, what makes you love this game so much, when so much is invested into the learning curve and turn/game setup? I mean, really?

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 40
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 12:02:47 AM   
HexHead

 

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It's kinda like the Grateful Dead - it's not the best, it's the only.

It's not 'pushing arrows'. Ya gotta think about your orders and methods and almost exactly how things are done, in what order, and how it's organized.

It's really a sorry spectacle, when you get down to it.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to mantrain)
Post #: 41
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 1:09:50 AM   
Quixote


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quote:

pray tell me gentlemen, what makes you love this game so much, when so much is invested into the learning curve and turn/game setup? I mean, really?



Some people really like a challenge. Not most people, granted, but some. This game is not for everyone. It's not for most people, really. AE is the definition of "niche game". For a lot (most) wargamers, this game seems more like work than fun - just look at the number of players who create, modify, and use multiple spreadsheets and add-on programs just to attempt to keep things organized. All for one game. Crazy, right? For most people, the answer is yes! That's crazy!

For people who really enjoy playing, though, the level of detail and immersion in AE is unequaled. You can play for years (literally) and still not know everything there is to know about the game. There is always room for improvement. You will likely never see exactly the same situation twice. Even if you do, it's likely to play out differently, anyway.

Based on your posts, I'd guess the game won't turn out to be what you think of as "fun". That's OK. You're probably in agreement with the majority of wargamers in the world. No one can argue or persuade you into liking the game as it is - it either appeals to you in it's current form, or it doesn't. Either way is fine. Decide you're willing to spend some time (lots of time, in all probability) learning to play, or decide it's probably not a game you think you end up enjoying and find some better way to spend your time. There's not much point in a trying for a middle ground though, since there really isn't much of a middle ground here.

< Message edited by Quixote -- 5/8/2013 1:13:05 AM >

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 42
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 1:39:38 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantrain

pray tell me gentlemen, what makes you love this game so much, when so much is invested into the learning curve and turn/game setup? I mean, really?



I've been interested in the PTO since I was a kid living at Pearl Harbor.

And it's the hardest to master, most complex commercially available computer wargame ever designed and sold. If you can play this you can play any of them. That has a certain snob appeal.

_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 43
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 1:51:29 AM   
Nami Koshino

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantrain

pray tell me gentlemen, what makes you love this game so much, when so much is invested into the learning curve and turn/game setup? I mean, really?



It's knowing that something as micro-managerially mundane as what map sector you set your cruiser's floatplanes to search may spell the difference between victory and defeat. The beauty of the game is in the details, and how a lot of it dovetails with history.

(in reply to mantrain)
Post #: 44
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 3:54:42 AM   
mantrain

 

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Something I just had to read more about while tweaking my TF:
Leave it to the Finns to take a Buffalo and make an eagle out of it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_F2A_Buffalo

Brewster F2A Buffalo
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
F2A Buffalo

Brewster F2A-3 in flight.
Role Single seat carrier-based fighter
National origin United States
Manufacturer Brewster Aeronautical Corporation
First flight 2 December 1937
Introduction April 1939
Retired 1948
Status Retired
Primary users United States Navy
Finnish Air Force
Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
ML-KNIL
Produced 1938–1941
Number built 509
The Brewster F2A Buffalo was an American fighter aircraft which saw limited service early in World War II. It was one of the first U.S. World War II monoplanes with an arrestor hook and other modifications for aircraft carriers. The Buffalo won a competition against the Grumman F4F Wildcat in 1939 to become the U.S. Navy's first monoplane fighter aircraft. Although superior to the Grumman F3F biplane it replaced,[1] the Buffalo turned out to be a disappointment.
Several nations, including Finland, Belgium, Britain and the Netherlands, ordered the Buffalo. Of all the users, only the Finns seemed to find their Buffalos effective, flying them in combat against early Soviet fighters with excellent results,[2] as opposed to the far more advanced Japanese fighters that the other nations faced. During the Continuation War of 1941–1944, the B-239's (a de-navalized F2A-1) operated by the Finnish Air Force proved capable of engaging and destroying most types of Soviet fighter aircraft operating against Finland at that time, achieving, in the first phase of that conflict, a kill-ratio of 32:1 (32 Soviet aircraft shot down for every B-239 lost)[3] and producing 36 Buffalo "aces".[4]
When World War II began in the Pacific[5] in December 1941, Buffalos operated by both British Commonwealth (B-339E) and Dutch (B-339D) air forces in South East Asia suffered severe losses in combat against the Japanese Navy's Mitsubishi A6M Zero and the Japanese Army's Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar". The British attempted to lighten their Buffalos by removing ammunition and fuel and installing lighter guns to increase performance, but it made little difference.[5]
The Buffalo was built in three variants for the U.S. Navy, the F2A-1, F2A-2 and F2A-3. (In foreign service, with lower horsepower engines, these types were designated B-239, B-339, and B-339-23 respectively.) The F2A-3 variant saw action with United States Marine Corps (USMC) squadrons at the Battle of Midway. Shown by the experience of Midway to be no match for the Zero,[1] the F2A-3 was derided by USMC pilots as a "flying coffin."[6] The F2A-3, however, was significantly inferior to the F2A-2 variant used by the Navy before the outbreak of the war.

(in reply to Nami Koshino)
Post #: 45
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 2:14:46 PM   
bjmorgan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: mantrain

is there a checklist for GC scenario?


There are various ones floating around, but I've never used one, even back in WITP days. Then I did the tutorial and started a GC right away. Thing is, if you play the AI nobody can see you cry.

Give up some control, go experiment. It's just pixels. Play the first months a couple of times. Start over, re-do. It's your game. Just have fun and learn as you go.

Sometimes there's WAAAY too many engineers around here.

This.

_____________________________

Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 46
RE: Beginner questions - 5/8/2013 11:40:50 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Playing as a first time Japan AE (only played WitP as the Allies) and in a PBEM no less, I have managed to stay alive until '45 but will definately not make it to August. We are at Nov '44 right now and to get to this point I have:

- played 1,057+ one day turns in the game (the plus represents both of us needing to back up several turns due to catastropic events that occured at various points in the game. With both of us agreeing to do so btw )
- This has taken us almost three years in real time to accomplish (we try for 7-10 turns a week on average)
- I have set up no less than four extensive spreadsheets to track various parts of Japanese production and early war shipping plans for troops and supplies. Several of these I have posted in this forum.
- In addition I have been using tracker too . As far as I am concerned you cannot play Japan without it . My tracker database goes all the way back to Turn 2 and it is now 1.6 G (yes Gigabytes ) in size lol. I actually has a completely seperate PC that keeps it running constantly since loading the DB is now taking about 45 min . So I REALLY hate it when I have to reboot the PC
- Not to mention the time spent on this forum. Probably 90% of my thread count is soly due to posts here versus others

Is any of the above 'normal behavoir' or something even other wargamers would feel as 'fun'? Very doubtful. No one in my family or set of friends (execpt one who I am doing the PBEM with ) would touch this game with a ten foot pole. Even though my family loves complex board games weridly enough.

So this game, like so many other things in life, is something you will like or it will not be. I actually started with Uncommon Valor and had a hard time getting to understand that game and gave up. So what did I do, I bought WitP . Played as the Allies for a while (did not touch the WitP manual since I had played UC and this was just like it only bigger, right? lol). Stopped playing after awhile since it just to be too much since I wanted to maximize every turn. Btw I AM an engineer lol. Then got AE when it came out since I had a discount. Do NOT underestimate the power of discounts. I am looking at you JC Penny lol.

What is even funnier is my opponet played several tmes as the Allies in WitP but not AE. So we started our game. After all the work involved for both of us to get through the first few weeks, we decided to completely restart the game becuse I had a major Japanese SF chase PT boats into the minefield around Bataan. Needless to say this did not end well for me . As both of us were not happy about how our initial stages were going, we agreed to restart.

So as long as you are willing to keep trying (sometimes over and over again lol), then you will understand why after so many years since the release this board is still on the New Releases page while others that have been released since are not. But you have to be willing to put the time in. Once you do you will understand how amazing this game really is. That it works at all even as close as it does, is an amazing feat. Which is why so many here are willing to help with questions/strategy/etc. as this is NOT a game where you can pick up and start playing and intiuitly understand how everything interacts. Many of fact, even when you think you understand it, something will happen that leasves you wondering, "What the hell?" Which is when you come up and ask why it happened, and everyone will glad to give you their opnions, be they right or wrong lol.

So welcome, hope you stick it out but totally understand if you do not.

(in reply to bjmorgan)
Post #: 47
RE: Beginner questions - 5/9/2013 2:08:44 AM   
mantrain

 

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somethings really clicked yesterday when I started to read the manual. I thought it would be painful but I dare say things are beginning to make sense and I can play. Actually enjoying the setup more than I thought I would and I just like the flavour of the game.

Just curios, there are so few scenarios for this game, compared to say, WITE, how are the mods?

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 48
RE: Beginner questions - 5/9/2013 2:42:41 AM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantrain

somethings really clicked yesterday when I started to read the manual. I thought it would be painful but I dare say things are beginning to make sense and I can play. Actually enjoying the setup more than I thought I would and I just like the flavour of the game.

Just curios, there are so few scenarios for this game, compared to say, WITE, how are the mods?


This game is way more complicated than WITE. Micromanagement can be first quite staggering, especially when not used to interface.

Main problem creating scenarios is creating AI scripts for them...and that can easily take like an year... AndyMac is the script guy, who not so far in past, also updated them.

There are quite a few mods and modified scenarios, like DaBabes versions or Reluctant Admiral.


_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to mantrain)
Post #: 49
RE: Beginner questions - 5/9/2013 3:05:09 AM   
mantrain

 

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[/quote]

This game is way more complicated than WITE. Micromanagement can be first quite staggering, especially when not used to interface.

Main problem creating scenarios is creating AI scripts for them...and that can easily take like an year... AndyMac is the script guy, who not so far in past, also updated them.

There are quite a few mods and modified scenarios, like DaBabes versions or Reluctant Admiral.

[/quote]

Are the mods any good, or are most the Vet's here sticken with the stock?

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 50
RE: Beginner questions - 5/9/2013 3:22:07 AM   
HexHead

 

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A lot - a lot of people play the mods.

They discuss the mods, incessantly. They dissect the mods. They mod the mods.

Yeah, the mods are good. Probably most people play "the Beta", an unofficial but very good patch.

Don't worry too much about the mods right now, I would suggest - maybe the Beta. Get the basic game under your belt - most of the mods are gooses of one sort or another, with a distinct tilt towards Japan, 'cuz that's where most of the alt-timeline stuff is geared.

Some shorter, non- General Campaign scenarios are mods, too - I would d/l & play them, they're instructive.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to mantrain)
Post #: 51
RE: Beginner questions - 5/9/2013 8:22:59 PM   
chemkid

 

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@Numdydar - that's the spirit! very cool post!! thank you!

@mantrain - i'm sure that 'beginners' like myself are in very good hands on the witp-ae forum! don't worry.

cheers!
chem!

_____________________________


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Post #: 52
RE: Beginner questions - 5/9/2013 8:36:57 PM   
Yaab


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From: Poznan, Poland
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I have always thought that the makers of this game were insane.

One day turns? Named pilots? Pilots having like ten different skills? Guns' positions on aircraft and ships? OOB for the entire war? Devices rated for ten different characteristics? China theatre with a massive Chinese army? Lots of ship hulls?

I guess we will hear that the last beta testers for this game surrendered in 2030, just like those Jap soldiers hiding in those tiny Pacific islands for years after that war has concluded.

(in reply to chemkid)
Post #: 53
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