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River crossings

 
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River crossings - 5/4/2013 9:31:52 PM   
Chris H

 

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What are the rules governing river crossing when there are both friendly and enemy LCU in the hex.
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RE: River crossings - 5/4/2013 9:44:00 PM   
sprior


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To avoid the auto-attack you have to have at least 25% (?) of the enemy AV already in the hex with them.

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RE: River crossings - 5/5/2013 5:32:29 AM   
topeverest

 

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I havent been able to discern what the trigger is that will cause follow on's to pay the penalty of the attack. My guess is that either you have to have already owned the hex and hexide when the enemy put forces in the hex. I seem to recall these trigger attacks occur weeks or months after the initial entry.

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RE: River crossings - 5/5/2013 8:52:08 AM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

To avoid the auto-attack you have to have at least 25% (?) of the enemy AV already in the hex with them.


It must be adjust AV then as the destination hex has a full div 336 AV while the Chinese have only 200. It was the RGC tax police that move across.




Ground combat at 84,54 (near Nanchang)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1200 troops, 4 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 394

Defending force 11435 troops, 65 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 217

Japanese adjusted assault: 0

Allied adjusted defense: 163

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
652 casualties reported
Squads: 33 destroyed, 23 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Assaulting units:
64th Division
RGC Tax Police Regiment

Defending units:
72nd Chinese Corps
78th Chinese Corps
30th Group Army

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RE: River crossings - 5/5/2013 9:32:41 AM   
LoBaron


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It cannot be adjusted AV, as this is per definitinon unknown at the time the shock attack is triggered.
(adjusted AV is the AV AFTER combat).

Would be interested in the exact answer as well, because I initially thought the same as sprior.

I have been proven different recently in our PBEM by a river crossing into Singapore, where the previous sieging troops´ AV already outnumbered the defender AV.
Still a shock attack was triggered when a small unit crossed into Singapore from Johore.

It might be related to the hexside ownership, as the the Allied sieging troops were brought ther by amphib assault, so the hexsides to Johore
were in Japanese hand.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 5/5/2013 9:34:14 AM >


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RE: River crossings - 5/5/2013 12:24:17 PM   
dr.hal


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I believe the fact that all hexsides are "owned" and that you need to determine who owns the hexside that the river flows along to see if there is going to be a shock trigger. But I might be wrong. There is a hot key that will show you who owns which hexside. It is hot key "W". Hal

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RE: River crossings - 5/5/2013 1:09:16 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

It cannot be adjusted AV, as this is per definitinon unknown at the time the shock attack is triggered.
(adjusted AV is the AV AFTER combat).

Would be interested in the exact answer as well, because I initially thought the same as sprior.

I have been proven different recently in our PBEM by a river crossing into Singapore, where the previous sieging troops´ AV already outnumbered the defender AV.
Still a shock attack was triggered when a small unit crossed into Singapore from Johore.

It might be related to the hexside ownership, as the the Allied sieging troops were brought ther by amphib assault, so the hexsides to Johore
were in Japanese hand.


I do not think it has to do with hexside ownership. I've sent other units across none own/river hexsides and not suffered any attacks.

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RE: River crossings - 5/5/2013 5:17:16 PM   
Lokasenna


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I think there might be 2 checks - if you own the hexside, no shock attack, but if you don't then you need a minimum proportion of the defender's AV already in the hex?

I try to avoid this situation whenever possible, so it hasn't come up much.

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RE: River crossings - 5/6/2013 9:07:30 AM   
Chris H

 

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One of the reason I like to send small units across hexside is to eliminate possible stupid retreat directions. This has happen on more than one occasion. It also funnels retreating/moving unit were I want tham to go

As I said earlier I've done this on many occasions without triggering a shock attack. Just occasional it happens but I'm still not convinced about the hexside business. This last attack here is same destination hex but different river hexside. Note this attack and previous were meant o arrive at the same time.


Ground combat at 84,54 (near Nanchang)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 4164 troops, 34 guns, 13 vehicles, Assault Value = 493

Defending force 11428 troops, 65 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 216

Japanese adjusted assault: 188

Allied adjusted defense: 150

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
130 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied ground losses:
182 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 21 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled

Assaulting units:
RGC Tax Police Regiment
64th Division
17th/C Division

Defending units:
72nd Chinese Corps
78th Chinese Corps
30th Group Army







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RE: River crossings - 5/6/2013 10:46:32 AM   
GreyJoy


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I believe the shock attack ISN'T triggered as long as you move less than 1/3 of the other units of yours already beyond the river.
So to say: you have A and B regiment of the given division already beyond the river in a contested hex belonging to your opponent. You can move the C regiment (provided it has less than 1/3 of the AV of the other two regiments combined) and that won't trigger the attack. Always worked for me

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RE: River crossings - 5/6/2013 6:19:27 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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This topic still seems to generate problems. Here goes from what I've learned and discussed in the past.

The initial crossing of a river into an enemy controlled hex will initiate a shock attack through that hex side. Additional crossings into that hex through another hex side will also initiate another shock attack.

To avoid follow up troops shock attacking across a hex side already passed through at least 1/3 of the unadjusted AV value of the defender must have crossed that particular hex side by the attacker during the initial assault. So, if the defender has an unadjusted AV of 450, the attacker must use at least 150 AV in the initial crossing for follow up troops to cross freely across the same hex side. Anything less than 150 AV would require further shock attacks until the 1/3 rule is met. If a different hex side is used, all bets are off and the attacker must shock attack and again meet the 1/3 rule for successive forces to cross freely.

I admit I do not fully understand the mechanics of reinforcing a friendly hex that is being contested across a river hex side. My guess is if the hex side is controlled by the defender the move should not generate a shock attack.

I hope this helps.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 5/6/2013 9:04:48 PM >


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RE: River crossings - 5/6/2013 9:01:27 PM   
LoBaron


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Thanks!

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RE: River crossings - 5/6/2013 10:08:46 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I believe the shock attack ISN'T triggered as long as you move less than 1/3 of the other units of yours already beyond the river.
So to say: you have A and B regiment of the given division already beyond the river in a contested hex belonging to your opponent. You can move the C regiment (provided it has less than 1/3 of the AV of the other two regiments combined) and that won't trigger the attack. Always worked for me


What! Less than 1/3 doesn't trigger an attack but more does!! Seems back to front to me, what's the logic behind that?

Looking back the destination hex had an AV of 332. The first unit moved in with an AV of 54, less than 1/3.
Next turn combine AV of the destination hex was now slightly higher at 335 when the second unit moved in with an AV of 145 more than 1/3. Both attacks triggered a shock attack.

< Message edited by Chris H -- 5/6/2013 10:19:27 PM >

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RE: River crossings - 5/6/2013 10:28:14 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Looking back the destination hex had an AV of 332. The first unit moved in with an AV of 54, less than 1/3.
Next turn combine AV of the destination hex was now slightly higher at 335 when the second unit moved in with an AV of 145 more than 1/3. Both attacks triggered a shock attack.


This is correct. Your first attack didn't meet the 1/3 rule so your second attack, regardless of AV would still trigger a second shock attack. If you were now to move a third unit across it would not trigger a shock attack because your second crossing met the 1/3 rule.

Assaulting with enough strength to cover the 1/3 requirement the first time is the way to go.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 5/6/2013 10:32:03 PM >


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RE: River crossings - 5/7/2013 2:08:51 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Looking back the destination hex had an AV of 332. The first unit moved in with an AV of 54, less than 1/3.
Next turn combine AV of the destination hex was now slightly higher at 335 when the second unit moved in with an AV of 145 more than 1/3. Both attacks triggered a shock attack.


This is correct. Your first attack didn't meet the 1/3 rule so your second attack, regardless of AV would still trigger a second shock attack. If you were now to move a third unit across it would not trigger a shock attack because your second crossing met the 1/3 rule.

Assaulting with enough strength to cover the 1/3 requirement the first time is the way to go.


To summerise

The first unit across a contested river hexside alway gererates a shock attack irrespective of how much AV you have in the destination hex.
Subsequent attacks across the same hexside will only trigger an attack if the original crossing(s) excedes 1/3 AV that of the defending units.

What determines a contested hexside? My understanding of a contested hexside is one with both a green and red line. All green is an Allied friendly (uncontested) hexside while red is Japanese friendly (uncontested)

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RE: River crossings - 5/7/2013 5:33:54 PM   
kmitahj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
I believe the shock attack ISN'T triggered as long as you move less than 1/3 of the other units of yours already beyond the river.
So to say: you have A and B regiment of the given division already beyond the river in a contested hex belonging to your opponent. You can move the C regiment (provided it has less than 1/3 of the AV of the other two regiments combined) and that won't trigger the attack. Always worked for me


I strongly suspect that what you see and decribe here is the same behaviour as in classic WitP. There when given lcu was making river crossing the only direct exception from auto-triggered shock attack was case when given lcu was crossing into own base. Otherwise crossing lcu disruption was rised by 50 (but no higher then 90) and the lcu was marked as shock attacking for later execution by LandCombat procedure. However before land combat phase come into play each just moved lcu was checked for the possibility of auto-merging that lcu with other units in the hex into parent unit. So lets image a division subdivided into three regiments of which two regts were already in target hex and third regiment just crossed the river into that hex. That third regiment was getting its disruption raised up and was marked for shock attack as usual but just after that auto-merge procedure was coming into play unifying the regiment with two others into full division. In that process disruption was (roughly) averanged and shock attack marker removed (to be more precise as far as i remember - though please don't quote me on that - unified division was taking the lowest stance of all three subunits so if any of the two regts was set to defend whole division was given defend stance after unifying). And that's it basically. That was the mechanics which was the basis for various variants of urban myths of "no more" or "no less" then 33% unadjusted AV crossing which were flying around in the Classic WitP era. Note of course that the scenario could go other way around: first single regiment is crossing (and likely badly mauled), next two other regts of same division crossing together in good shape without beeing involved into shock attack... Also using japan brigades which divided into only two regts one could argue about 50% unadjusted AV rule too!
At last a question: what would happen if all three regiments of same division managed to cross the river in the same turn?

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RE: River crossings - 6/16/2013 8:27:34 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

This topic still seems to generate problems. Here goes from what I've learned and discussed in the past.

The initial crossing of a river into an enemy controlled hex will initiate a shock attack through that hex side. Additional crossings into that hex through another hex side will also initiate another shock attack.

To avoid follow up troops shock attacking across a hex side already passed through at least 1/3 of the unadjusted AV value of the defender must have crossed that particular hex side by the attacker during the initial assault. So, if the defender has an unadjusted AV of 450, the attacker must use at least 150 AV in the initial crossing for follow up troops to cross freely across the same hex side. Anything less than 150 AV would require further shock attacks until the 1/3 rule is met. If a different hex side is used, all bets are off and the attacker must shock attack and again meet the 1/3 rule for successive forces to cross freely.

I admit I do not fully understand the mechanics of reinforcing a friendly hex that is being contested across a river hex side. My guess is if the hex side is controlled by the defender the move should not generate a shock attack.

I hope this helps.


Can anyone confirm this? I have a unit crossing a river into a hex I control and through a hexside I also control. However, when I open the unit window, I get this. Does the red "enemy" mean I am going to trigger a shock attack?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Icedawg -- 6/16/2013 8:28:18 PM >

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RE: River crossings - 6/16/2013 8:30:36 PM   
HexHead

 

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See my last post in the other thread - you sure that SE hexside of Akyab's isn't red 'underneath' the blue hexside?

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RE: River crossings - 6/16/2013 8:36:22 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

See my last post in the other thread - you sure that SE hexside of Akyab's isn't red 'underneath' the blue hexside?


That thickness of a red hexside means it is impassable. Nothing to do with control.

By the way, the red is a good thing for me. It means I control it. I am the Japanese player (should have specified earlier).

< Message edited by Icedawg -- 6/16/2013 8:37:15 PM >

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