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I believe this game will never happen

 
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I believe this game will never happen - 5/4/2013 8:10:26 PM   
LRRP

 

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After seeing that this game has been in development for over 4+ years I have written it off
Post #: 1
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/4/2013 8:42:05 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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(Silly LRRP-Newblette. Its already been happening for many moons)-
http://www.vassalengine.org/
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:World_in_Flames


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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
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(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 2
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/6/2013 2:56:26 AM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

After seeing that this game has been in development for over 4+ years I have written it off


It has been a long time LRRP there is no getting around that , but as a beta tester for MWIF there is light at the end of the tunnel and the game will be well worth the wait.\

Bo

(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 3
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/6/2013 6:36:11 AM   
Edfactor


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From: Dallas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

After seeing that this game has been in development for over 4+ years I have written it off


4 years? we are coming up on the 10 year anniversary in a few months.

If you are going to complain accuracy is a must.


"Matrix Games and Australian Design Group Seal Deal for World In Flames!

Matrix Games to Develop and Publish World Famous Wargame

Woodbridge, NJ, October 21st, 2003 - Matrix Games and Australian Design Group (ADG: www.a-d-g.com.au ) are pleased to announce that the international award-winning wargame World In Flames will be faithfully adapted for computer play. Unlike many other World War II wargames, World In Flames covers every unit in every theater of operations, making it possible to play out all of World War II in a single unified game system."

(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 4
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/6/2013 7:44:08 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

After seeing that this game has been in development for over 4+ years I have written it off

Thanks for dropping by and sharing that with us. Happy to see you have this kind of time on your hands...

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/6/2013 5:54:35 PM >


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Paul

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Post #: 5
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/6/2013 12:29:01 PM   
tigercub


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come in open your mouth and go!

Don`t let the door hit you on the way out!

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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life

(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 6
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/6/2013 6:19:43 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

(Silly LRRP-Newblette. Its already been happening for many moons)-
http://www.vassalengine.org/
http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:World_in_Flames



Slaak is right. The game is already out for multiplayers. If this won't have an AI, what is the point?

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 7
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/6/2013 10:20:05 PM   
Terminus


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The only point would be for people who don't want to buy the boardgame and 87 bajillion expansions to play the VASSAL module.

I personally don't think having no AI is a good idea. Take a year or two to build it before release. You've already gone for a decade, what's a few more years?

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 8
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 2:12:49 AM   
paulderynck


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The point is that all the mistakes you or your opponent can make in Vassal or the boardgame, like missing the weather being different on the other side of the weather line, or with respect to whether units are in or out of supply, or bringing on reinforcements in the wrong place, or messing up US Entry, or miscounting plane ranges, or miscalculating odds or shifts for an attack, or etc. etc. etc. won't happen.

But you would have all of us who are perfectly willing to play other human beings (or not terrified of losing a game to them) wait a few more years. That's very big of you.

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Paul

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 9
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 9:20:49 AM   
Terminus


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You've waited for a decade already.

After launch, will you be willing to forego bug fixes while the AI is being written? Last I checked, this is a one-man project, and writing a competent AI is not something you do in a week or two. I think this is a poor decision.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 10
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 11:00:08 AM   
Titan

 

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From: new Zealand
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

After seeing that this game has been in development for over 4+ years I have written it off

Thanks for dropping by and sharing that with us. Happy to see you have this kind of time on your hands...



Looks more like Trolling to me, probably no real interest anyway

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 11
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 6:54:58 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You've waited for a decade already.

After launch, will you be willing to forego bug fixes while the AI is being written? Last I checked, this is a one-man project, and writing a competent AI is not something you do in a week or two. I think this is a poor decision.

Nope. I'm willing to have the AI further delayed.

Furthermore, the game is almost ready now. There are many of us who want to start using it. Let's say half the fans of the game are willing. With the AI, the software needs to be written, then debugged - but unlike the game there is yet one more step. How much further testing and software modification (and debugging) will be needed to make the AI at least a passable opponent for a beginner**? And how much more time will that add to the process? So unlike the game, which has two components to satisfy prior to release, the AI will have three. So half the fan base here have to wait that much longer for an AI they feel they can live without?

Waiting for the AI before publication would be the poor decision.

**And the game will come with something like 20 tutorials that should enable a beginner to understand and play it anyway.

You want an AI now? Play the game solitaire. The AI will be superior to the one you are going to get. And you'll have it when the game is published. And it will always adjust and keep pace with your own improving abilities.


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/7/2013 7:14:42 PM >


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Paul

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Post #: 12
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 8:10:37 PM   
Terminus


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And for how long has it been "almost ready now"?

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 13
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 10:02:48 PM   
Kham

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And for how long has it been "almost ready now"?


several years.

it has also been several years since there has been an attempt to answer the question When?

And thats despite more than 3000 posts in the top sticky.

So I kinda agree that there is a good chance we will never see this commercially. And yes dropping by every year or so to see nóthing has changed might not be really paying attention but then again I doubt there is much of a point to being on this forum more often.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 14
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 10:08:31 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kham


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And for how long has it been "almost ready now"?


several years.

warspite1

It was a rhetorical question.......

Not fair to say nothing has changed - although admittedly you can be forgiven for thinking that is the case. Rest assured, there is plenty of work going on under the surface - keep the faith. In Steve we trust

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Kham)
Post #: 15
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 11:24:21 PM   
rmdesantis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kham


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And for how long has it been "almost ready now"?


several years.

it has also been several years since there has been an attempt to answer the question When?

And thats despite more than 3000 posts in the top sticky.

So I kinda agree that there is a good chance we will never see this commercially. And yes dropping by every year or so to see nóthing has changed might not be really paying attention but then again I doubt there is much of a point to being on this forum more often.


As counterpoint, if you've checked out the forum you'll have seen that Matrix has called for the 'final' round of beta testers. There would be no point in doing this if there wasn't a reasonable likelihood of a commercial launch of the product being planned.

Mike

(in reply to Kham)
Post #: 16
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/7/2013 11:26:33 PM   
marklv

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edfactor


quote:

ORIGINAL: LRRP

After seeing that this game has been in development for over 4+ years I have written it off


4 years? we are coming up on the 10 year anniversary in a few months.

If you are going to complain accuracy is a must.


"Matrix Games and Australian Design Group Seal Deal for World In Flames!

Matrix Games to Develop and Publish World Famous Wargame

Woodbridge, NJ, October 21st, 2003 - Matrix Games and Australian Design Group (ADG: www.a-d-g.com.au ) are pleased to announce that the international award-winning wargame World In Flames will be faithfully adapted for computer play. Unlike many other World War II wargames, World In Flames covers every unit in every theater of operations, making it possible to play out all of World War II in a single unified game system."



I remember that the original idea to make a computer game from World in Flames came about in mid 1990s. Chris Marinacci started it in 1995 and 'finished' it in 2002 - of course there was no AI etc. So some of us (me included) have been waiting 18 years!! I was 28 in 1995 and now I'm 46. Hopefully I'll be able to play the game before I retire.


(in reply to Edfactor)
Post #: 17
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/8/2013 8:53:19 PM   
Jimm


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As a long time (on and off since about 2007) member of the beta team, I echo what Bo, Paul and other of my colleagues have said above: the game is very close. It has been relatively playable in beta versions for some time now and Steve is battling through the last few main issues.

Now, given the limited development resources we have, (ie Steve) it seems sensible to me that getting a robust, working game up and running is an absolute prerequisite before getting very far down the line of coding up an AI- (which still strikes me as an immensely challenging proposition in its own right).


One thing we have been chewing on of late in the development group is how game balance is affected by the Asian/Pacific being at European scale; particularly the Sino-Japanese campaign. In testing we only have a very small sample of test games to go by and up to now it hasn't been a big focus. Having a large data set of netplay games will be a great indicator of whether this balance is right- or perhaps needs compensating in future patches- and this affects how you program an AI to play Japan and China successfully.

(in reply to marklv)
Post #: 18
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/9/2013 10:00:37 PM   
bo

 

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I agree with Jimm 100% and I usually dont agree with anybody about anything

Steve has heard my negative side for many years, but 2 years ago I grew up a little and to Steve's credit he took me on as a beta tester. Wow what an eye opener for me about the complexity of this game, I never played the board game and not really sure this is my kind of game, hopefully it will be, I like more action oriented games like Cod2 and WOT, probably because at my age I tend to doze at slow moving games

I will say this that I find playing MWIF in the beta form in the solo mode not bad at all, even though I would prefer an AI in the initial release [it will not happen] I can live with learning the game through Steve's fine tutorials in any mode. I may be wrong but PBEM will not fly right with me, even though you could have 5 or 6 games going at once, I might have enough trouble trying to concentrate on one game.

My biggest thrill for me at 7 pm est. will be to call Orm on the phone waking him up [probably about one pm in Sweden] and chastise him for not making any moves in the last 24 hours. [pbem]

And in net play some of you you people here will need to change a diaper in the middle of the game which will not sit well with me when I am about to crush them with Erwin Rommels Panzers.

The AI is a must, I do not care if it is a poor AI, a not so good AI, a decent AI, a very good AI, or a Big blue AI, I just do not care, each one above will have it's values for differnt learning technics, nobody in their right mind would want to play against Big Blue for they would lose every time and I do not like to lose.

Just an opinion good or bad.

Bo

(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 19
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 3:43:04 AM   
Kham

 

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quote:

warspite1

It was a rhetorical question.......

Not fair to say nothing has changed - although admittedly you can be forgiven for thinking that is the case. Rest assured, there is plenty of work going on under the surface - keep the faith. In Steve we trust


It must be very well hidden

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 2, 2010 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum


Beta Testing
I released versions 4.01.01, 4.01.02, 4.01.03, 4.01.04 and 4.01.05 to the beta testers this month. They got a new version about every 4 days at the beginning of the month but that paced slacked off once I started working on the rewrite of the supply routines.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

In April I released 3 new versions to the beta testers: 10.03.00 (12 fixes), 10.03.01 (8 fixes), and 10.03.03 (8 fixes). The last of those was on April 14th. I have 20 fixes done for version 10.03.04, which is waiting for me to finish supply. Both the number of new versions and fixes (48) are dramatically below my averages. What can I say, debugging supply takes a lot of my time and effort.




< Message edited by Kham -- 5/10/2013 3:44:42 AM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 20
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 4:18:19 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kham

quote:

warspite1

It was a rhetorical question.......

Not fair to say nothing has changed - although admittedly you can be forgiven for thinking that is the case. Rest assured, there is plenty of work going on under the surface - keep the faith. In Steve we trust


It must be very well hidden

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 2, 2010 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum


Beta Testing
I released versions 4.01.01, 4.01.02, 4.01.03, 4.01.04 and 4.01.05 to the beta testers this month. They got a new version about every 4 days at the beginning of the month but that paced slacked off once I started working on the rewrite of the supply routines.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

In April I released 3 new versions to the beta testers: 10.03.00 (12 fixes), 10.03.01 (8 fixes), and 10.03.03 (8 fixes). The last of those was on April 14th. I have 20 fixes done for version 10.03.04, which is waiting for me to finish supply. Both the number of new versions and fixes (48) are dramatically below my averages. What can I say, debugging supply takes a lot of my time and effort.



warspite1

I confirmed to you that there has been great advances in getting the game ready for launch (and agreed that that may not be readily apparent from the outside). I was just trying to give you some tangible comfort (NDA considerations permitting) that the game is progressing.

You can accept what I say or choose to continue you with your thought that it is unlikely we will see this game released commercially. Your choice.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Kham)
Post #: 21
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 5:51:05 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kham

quote:

warspite1

It was a rhetorical question.......

Not fair to say nothing has changed - although admittedly you can be forgiven for thinking that is the case. Rest assured, there is plenty of work going on under the surface - keep the faith. In Steve we trust


It must be very well hidden

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 2, 2010 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum


Beta Testing
I released versions 4.01.01, 4.01.02, 4.01.03, 4.01.04 and 4.01.05 to the beta testers this month. They got a new version about every 4 days at the beginning of the month but that paced slacked off once I started working on the rewrite of the supply routines.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

In April I released 3 new versions to the beta testers: 10.03.00 (12 fixes), 10.03.01 (8 fixes), and 10.03.03 (8 fixes). The last of those was on April 14th. I have 20 fixes done for version 10.03.04, which is waiting for me to finish supply. Both the number of new versions and fixes (48) are dramatically below my averages. What can I say, debugging supply takes a lot of my time and effort.




CWIF handled supply by calculating supply for all units on the map whenever it was possible that the supply status of a unit might have changed. There were some flaws in precision of the supply calculations, but nothing major. If you wanted to know from where a unit was getting supply, then there was a popup menu item that let you do that. The feedback to the player was a list of hex coordinates, which traced the path from the unit to the ultimate supply source. But it was very difficult to understand what the list of coordinates was telling you.

For MWIF I wanted to made the supply calculations absolutely accurate, so I started from scratch. I considered simply trying to correct the CWIF supply code, but it used recursive calls and had no documentation whatsoever, so I eventually ruled that out. Getting the rules straight was non-trivial, it took many experienced WIF players to determine exactly what supply sources and paths could be used by each secondary supply source and unit. I would guess that fewer than half of the WIF over-the-board players fully understand the rules on supply. Based on some of the discussions in this forum the sad news is that some of them play major supply rules wrong.

Then there was the question of feedback to the player. I want players who are new to WIF to be able to understand supply. Rather than just show "these units are in supply" and "these units are not", I believe it is important to define all the possible supply sources, which ones are currently valid and which ones can not currently be used (e.g., an HQ which is too far from a rail line because of bad weather). In addition, I wanted to display all the out-of-supply units in a list for each major power and minor country. That way a player could know which units he needed to get back in supply (or might want to attack).

So, my first pass on rewriting supply was to define data structures to hold all the information necessary for reporting on supply to the player. Hand in hand with that was creating a new form to display the supply sources and paths. As part of that form was a check box that toggled between showing units in supply and those that were OOS. That took a lot of work - months when interspersed with correctly bugs in the sequence of play and adding other elements to the game (e.g., redesigning the production planning form, finishing code for incomplete optional rules). Eventually concern about other aspects of the game took my attention away from supply completely for a long period.

My second pass was to eliminate any existing bugs in determining supply, and getting it to execute very quickly (i.e., less than 10 seconds in very complicated game positions). All of this was calculating supply from scratch - without any existing information on supply sources or paths. I only finished with that month or so ago. What was most difficult in this pass was coding the search for tertiary supply sources, which can trace to secondary or other tertiary. The reason that was hard was that a secondary (or tertiary) can have multiple supply paths back to different primary supply sources. So, a German HQ unit might be useable by the Italians to trace back to Italy and useable by the Rumanians to trace back to Rumania. Throw in the possibility of overseas supply and a linked list of tertiary supply sources and you can see that things get complex. Right now I have allocated memory for each secondary/tertiary supply source having up to 26 supply paths.

I'm coming to a close on my third pass, which is to recalculating supply using the information previously gathered. The goal here is to make recalculating supply take less than 1/10 of a second. To do that I've written code to determine if supply has changed (usually due to a unit moving, but sometimes because of a massive change in the game like the weather or a DOW). Why not just rerun a full supply calculation like CWIF did? Because to do so every time you move a unit would quickly become annoying beyond belief, even if it only took the program 1 second to accomplish that: move a unit - pause - move a unit - pause - ...

As part of recalculating supply I am also maintaining tables of which supply sources are being used by which units. Plus all the stuff about OOS units. The benefit of all this data is that you can pop up the display supply sources and paths form whenever you want to see which units are tracing supply overseas and through which sea areas. There is a ton if information on supply at the player's fingertips.

But getting the code to execute the rules perfectly and to keep even the newest WIF player well informed concerning supply comes at a cost: the time and effort it takes for me to write and debug the code.

So, in a sense you are right: the progress in completing MWIF is well hidden. A player clicks on a land unit to pick it up and then clicks on a destination hex. The tens of thousands of lines of code that are executed to make sure the move is legal and transform the game state to reflect the changes caused by moving the unit are never seen by the player. What does he care? The game either works or not. If it doesn't, it's a worthless. Personally I feel that way about my car and the faucet in my sink. And so it goes.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Kham)
Post #: 22
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 2:00:12 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

I would guess that fewer than half of the WIF over-the-board players fully understand the rules on supply. Based on some of the discussions in this forum the sad news is that some of them play major supply rules wrong.


And how many other game rules may some human players be playing wrong I wonder. It's amusing that some folks are overly concerned about an AI not being good enough. This assumes that all human players are better. Sometimes not, and besides the honest mistakes due to not understanding a rule fully there are of course those who are not so honest. And perhaps that is why some are so adamant against an AI; you can't cheat against it!

(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 23
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 8:00:24 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 24
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 8:54:40 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
And how many other game rules may some human players be playing wrong I wonder. It's amusing that some folks are overly concerned about an AI not being good enough. This assumes that all human players are better. Sometimes not, and besides the honest mistakes due to not understanding a rule fully there are of course those who are not so honest. And perhaps that is why some are so adamant against an AI; you can't cheat against it!

What you describe is the reason why MWiF will be better than Vassal. It will enforce the rules. It doesn't need an AI to enforce the rules. The rules (RAC) are invariably coded into the game.

Issue 1: Should the game be released without the AI? I recall people arguing about this, but no one stating that the game should not ever have an AI. It is a choice of something now versus an unknown delay to get the same thing as now plus something additional that has unknown value.

Non-Issue 2: Should the game have an AI? In fact this is not an issue. Steve has stated repeatedly that providing an AI is part of his contract.

Issue 3: Will the AI be good enough? Obviously opinions vary. What is good enough? There is an interesting Ted talk online by the guy who designed the Tower Defense games. The problem is not to make the AI good, the problem is to make it competitive. If it always wins, people hate it. If it always loses, I suppose some people might like it... But I expect the majority want a competitive game. Hence, for the meantime I recommend playing solitaire if you can't find an opponent. That way you'll have a competitive AI.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/10/2013 9:01:40 PM >


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Paul

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Post #: 25
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 9:30:46 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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quote:

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.


Oh Oh I know one!

Bluster at your opponent alot and say 'Well of course that Arm is in supply any fool can see that!' and start moving units

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 26
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 9:46:37 PM   
Greyshaft


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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.


1. Spending an Offensive chit?
2. on the weekend after Payday?
3. using the CTRL-SHIFT-F1-[ENTER] key combination that Steve secretly programmed into MWiF ?

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

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Post #: 27
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/10/2013 10:29:35 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

The problem is not to make the AI good, the problem is to make it competitive. If it always wins, people hate it. If it always loses, I suppose some people might like it...


This is why players should have some choice for game difficulty settings. Not so much to allow the AI to "cheat" but to allow either the human player OR computer opponent some handicap(s) for desired play balance, as defined by an individual solitaire player. I don't mind an AI with some bonuses for a tough game; that's alright. I do mind an AI (and human!) that makes flat-out stupid gameplay choices; that can ruin a game quickly.

(in reply to LRRP)
Post #: 28
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/11/2013 3:29:54 AM   
Kham

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/20/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.


well there is emergency HQ supply.

And I think a HQ unable to draw supply from a primary source can still help chain to other units, say the Romanian HQ supplying Germans in a pocket in Italy.

An HQ unit in rain needs three hexes to get to a primary source and is therefore out of supply. A unit next to the HQ unit but in Fine weather makes it to the primary source via the out of supply HQ.

I think :)

Didn't say it was easy - I am probably wrong lol.

And since I do hope that the game gets finished and I sincerely hope warspite1 is correct.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 29
RE: I believe this game will never happen - 5/11/2013 5:03:48 PM   
ACMW

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 11/25/2006
Status: offline
I don't give a fig about the AI. I do care about being able to play in distributed mode. But this, this, is what I want. A system that ensures (enforces!) that the rules are played as intended, and, preferably, provides assistance to the player in understanding why he can't do this or that. This - and the above mentioned supply rules are the biggest and bast example of this - is worth the wait.

Cheers

ACMW

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 30
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