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RE: French Army in the Far East 1945

 
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RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 2:18:30 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1506
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Hi Don,

Looked all over for any of the individual volumes with no joy. Then Francois found me some US libraries with copies of "Les grandes uniteìs françaises : historiques succincts" including FSU in Tallahassee, only a couple hours away. Says a lot for my research technique, yeah?

It's my go-to place for some other things and have good relations with the research librarians. Sounds like it's time for another road trip. Send me a list.

JWE

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 31
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/18/2013 8:48:08 AM   
Skyland


Posts: 216
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Hi,

do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

Thanks!

K




Hi,
I have made some research some time ago for my mod.
GM of 2nd DB was composed of :
4th bataillon of Regiment de Marche du Tchad + elements of armored regiment of Fusiliers-Marins
1st company de Marche of 501th Regiment de Char de Combat
7th escadron of 1st regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains (with Stuart M5 A1 tanks)
71th bataillon of Genie Colonial


_____________________________

War Options 1941 mod : https://sites.google.com/site/waroptionswitpaemod/

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 32
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/19/2013 2:52:23 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Hi,

do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

Thanks!

K




Hi,
I have made some research some time ago for my mod.
GM of 2nd DB was composed of :
4th bataillon of Regiment de Marche du Tchad + elements of armored regiment of Fusiliers-Marins
1st company de Marche of 501th Regiment de Char de Combat
7th escadron of 1st regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains (with Stuart M5 A1 tanks)
71th bataillon of Genie Colonial



Hi,

many thanks! Most interesting, I have never seen a detailed listing of the GM.

Btw., your mod is most interesting (didn't know about its existence before). Do you have any objections if I (ahem) plunder your ship art for my own mod (still work in progress)? I already have most Free French ships (including the Oiseaux des Iles ) but lack artwork for them.

K

(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 33
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/20/2013 2:31:58 PM   
Skyland


Posts: 216
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen




Hi,

many thanks! Most interesting, I have never seen a detailed listing of the GM.

Btw., your mod is most interesting (didn't know about its existence before). Do you have any objections if I (ahem) plunder your ship art for my own mod (still work in progress)? I already have most Free French ships (including the Oiseaux des Iles ) but lack artwork for them.

K



Of course, no problem.


_____________________________

War Options 1941 mod : https://sites.google.com/site/waroptionswitpaemod/

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 34
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/20/2013 11:04:52 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8148
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
My thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread. Been away for a while so I'm just catching up.

Anything after VJ day is just "suppos'n", so for my mod I'm going to suppose like this:

1. Free French Units transferred to the Pacific after VE day would be available for combat outside of Indochina, including any invasion(s) of the Japanese Homeland.
2. All of the combat units listed/linked to in this thread are available.
3. The 2nd Armored is available IN ITS FULL 1944/45 OOB/TOE. For this I use: http://stephane.delogu.pagesperso-orange.fr/orga-2db.html. This site is the only one I have found with detailed TOE data.
4. Ex-Vichy Units in Indochina will not become available. I'd like to link them to the capture of the various locations where they were stationed but just do not have the mechanics to do this.
5. As much as I can, I'll use French names. 2e Blindee Division, for instance. Due to character limitations on the name field, I may not use the proper numeric designations. I.E. 13eme will be 13e. Does this seem OK to those whose understand French military terms?

All of this I feel I can support with the various data sources from this thread. Again, thanks to all.


< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 5/21/2013 11:46:46 PM >

(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 35
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/21/2013 1:40:06 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8148
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Looks like "47th" was a typo. Apparently was 49th. See: http://stonebooks.com/history/freefrench.shtml



quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.


This is weird... For what I understand, the 47th Infantry Regiment (motto Semper Fidelis, go figure!) was a "rappelé" unit, ie existing only in times of mobilisation. As such, it was formed in 1939 and disbanded in 42. It was then rebuilt in 1955 in Algeria, to incorporate conscripts. Also, as a line regiment, it seems strange to see it in what clearly was a troupe coloniale outfit.

The 7th RTA served occupation duty in germany until the early 50s, and then was sent to Indochina. It was considered a pretty reliable unit, in fact it did serve on the french side in Algeria... Don't know where Google found its information, but it seems a bit off.

Francois




(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 36
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/21/2013 11:28:40 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 956
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Looks like "47th" was a typo. Apparently was 49th. See: http://stonebooks.com/history/freefrench.shtml


It makes sense. The 49th was another conscript regiment. Disbanded in 1940, it was rebuilt in 1945 to incorporate FFI (resistance troops operating inside France) in the regular army. It formed one bataillon de marche which was sent to Indochina in 1946.

Back on the "blanchiment", I believe the main reason for shuffling African, Colonial, FFL and FFI units around in 1944 and 1945 was the need to restore some form of cohesion inside the French army. In 1945, French forces were a very odd mix of units which had fought very different wars, and disliked, sometimes hated, each other.

You had:
- troops from the French resistance, FFI (Gaullists) and FTP (Communists)
- troops from the French Armée d'Armistice, ie 1940 units under Vichy government,
- former prisonners from the 1940 army
- armée d'Afrique (and colonials), who had served Vichy, and then the Allies after Torch, and fought in North Africa, France and Germany
- FFL, ie Free French under De Gaulle, small units, but with a lot of legitimacy (although the colonials would despise them as "servants of the British")

A lot of the shifts in parent were prompted by the need to have all those factions operate together, and therefore mix "resistance units" like the 49th, with colonials, FFL and sometimes armée d'armistice units.

Francois

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 37
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 6/3/2014 12:23:13 AM   
Madmat

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/2/2014
Status: offline
I apologize for digging up that thread, but I came accross while looking for informations on the French trooops' organization in Indochina.

In the process, I may have bring some details about that:
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Back on the "blanchiment", I believe the main reason for shuffling African, Colonial, FFL and FFI units around in 1944 and 1945 was the need to restore some form of cohesion inside the French army. In 1945, French forces were a very odd mix of units which had fought very different wars, and disliked, sometimes hated, each other.

The "blanchiment" of the French Army in 44-45 was due to several reasons.
- First one was the urging of the (still segregated) US Army. Since the Americans were providing the equipment to arm or rearm the new Free French divisions, they strongly insisted that they did so to white troops. If the "blanchiment" was only done partially in the French 1ère Armée, since it couldn't be stricly imposed to a French command, it was not the same for Leclerc's 2e Division Blindée (2e DB). Since the latter unit was to operate from England and under American command for the Normandy campaign, both the British & Americans urged it to replace "indigènes" troops with "white" ones.
- Later on, after the landing in Provence and the march from Provence to Alsace, losses among colonial units imposed to retire some of them and replace them with new units formed from enlisted résistants. De Gaulle was keen to oblige the latter, for he didn't want to leave armed communist maquis behind the army, and rather have them amalgamted in the army.
- Per tradition, at least since WW1, the French Army tried its best not to put colonial troops on the frontline in Winter, for they were supposed to be "racially" inadapted for that climate. I'm sure Moroccan Tabors would have had a say to that, but anyway they were gradually withdrawn from combat in late 44/early 45, and replaced by freshly enlisted troops.

Nonetheless, the "blanchiment" was nowhere complete ...


< Message edited by Madmat -- 6/3/2014 1:24:08 AM >

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 38
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