Matrix Games Forums

To End All Wars: Mountain InfantryPandora: Eclipse of Nashira Announced! Deal of the Week: Command Ops goes half price!New Fronts are opening up for Commander: The Great WarCharacters of World War 1Sign of for the Pike and Shot Beta!More Games are Coming to Steam! Return to the Moon on October 31st! Commander: The Great War iPad Wallpapers Generals of the Great War
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

French Army in the Far East 1945

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> French Army in the Far East 1945 Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/4/2013 6:31:46 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

For anyone with a mod that extends past the end of 1945 (me! me!)...

I've found some interesting information on French Forces to be sent to the Pacific in October, 1945. For full details: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/cgsc_jackson.pdf

Some highlights:

"The second track in French plans was the French Far East Expeditionary Corps. The French Far East Expeditionary Corps was designed to fight a conventional battle against the Japanese Army, but under one of two scenarios: either as part of a reconquest of Indochina or, to placate American desires, as part of a follow-on wave of assault troops in the upcoming invasion of Japan’s home islands."

The 5th Colonial Regiment was very interesting: "Another element of this first French track was the Light Intervention Corps, later renamed the 5th Colonial Infantry Regiment. This unit was raised in North Africa and then staged in India, and was the first French unit to return to Indochina when the British transported them to Saigon. It was a unique unit organized with five subelements: two parachute infantry companies organized similarly to American organizations of the time, two light commandos organized similarly to British Commando Troops of the time, and a Special Air Service Battalion organized like a similar British unit of the time. This last unit, composed of naval infantrymen who had been given parachute and commando training, underwent several name changes and is most frequently known as Commando Ponchardier since there was a desire to not be confused with a parachute unit later deployed to Indochina--the 1st Special Air Service Parachute Shock Battalion. At any rate, the 5th Colonial Infantry Regiment was employed as the advance guard of the French Far East Expeditionary Corps in its reoccupation of Indochina."






Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 12:27:18 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5130
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
A very interesting article.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 2
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 7:46:06 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Hi Don,

Have been doing a lot of work with Service Historique de Defense on another project (actually Francois Charton has been doing the grunt work, for which he cannot be thanked enough). Have some nice names and contacts that don’t seem to mind my atrocious French.

Can help find things in the French Ministry of Defense archives if you get stuck somewhere.

Ciao. John


_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 3
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 7:58:10 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Thanks John.

Anything you might have on the units in the jpg above would be helpful.

All I have is google droppings to fill out the sub-unit names. And nothing on TOEs (except for 5th Colonial Regiment).

Google (and google translate) did give a good list of sub-units of 2nd Armored, but I'm assuming their TOEs were just like contemporary US units. I know they had US equipment.

I have even less on the other units: 3rd and 9th Colonial Divisions, Far East and Far East Naval Brigades.

Also love to have proper unit names - that will fit in 20 characters!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

Hi Don,

Have been doing a lot of work with Service Historique de Defense on another project (actually Francois Charton has been doing the grunt work, for which he cannot be thanked enough). Have some nice names and contacts that don’t seem to mind my atrocious French.

Can help find things in the French Ministry of Defense archives if you get stuck somewhere.

Ciao. John



(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 4
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 8:08:51 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41344
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Sub-units for the 3rd and 9th in January 45 (for the German Nordwind offensive):

3e Division d'infanterie Algerienne: 3e and 7e Regiments de Tirailleurs Algerienne(RTA), 4e Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens(RTT), 67e Regiment de Artillerie d'Afrique(RAA).

9e Division d'infanterie Coloniale: 4e, 6e and 13e Regiments de Tirailleurs Sénégalais(RTS), Regiment d'Artillerie Colonial du Maroc(RAMC)

Both divisions followed the standard US pattern, but were equipped in a very slipshod manner, due to logistical problems.

Source: Osprey Campaign 223 - Operation Nordwind 1945

< Message edited by Terminus -- 5/5/2013 8:19:42 PM >


_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 5
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 8:33:41 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Thanks

Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.

Also chasing something named "The Colonial Cavalry Regiment" as being in the 9th at some time. Possibly a recon unit??



quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sub-units for the 3rd and 9th in January 45 (for the German Nordwind offensive):

3e Division d'infanterie Algerienne: 3e and 7e Regiments de Tirailleurs Algerienne(RTA), 4e Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens(RTT), 67e Regiment de Artillerie d'Afrique(RAA).

9e Division d'infanterie Coloniale: 4e, 6e and 13e Regiments de Tirailleurs Sénégalais(RTS), Regiment d'Artillerie Colonial du Maroc(RAMC)

Both divisions followed the standard US pattern, but were equipped in a very slipshod manner, due to logistical problems.

Source: Osprey Campaign 223 - Operation Nordwind 1945


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 6
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 8:52:02 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1327
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Thanks John.

Anything you might have on the units in the jpg above would be helpful.

Hi Don.

The French are pretty particular about things. They don't research the archives themselves, they expect you to do that. So they won't respond to general questions. But if you have a specific question about a specific unit/period, it's possible to get a "reglement" from the archives, but don't expect someone to do it for you. Know what you want, they are very helpful. Just want some info, they are like, zut, wtf?

Just fyi. John

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 9:11:38 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
No worries. Google probably gives me enough. TOE I'll assume to be same-as US.

Besides the French names tend to be longer than their English equivalents. That 20-character limit is a bear. Little things like "Coloniale" instead of "Colonial" seem to always cause truncation.

Speaking of French, my wife's cousin does ancestral research as a hobby. She traced my mother's mother all the way to Normandy to a brother of William the Conqueror. Only line she could trace for more than a few generations. Apparently only the records of the gentry survive for very long. Anyway, feel free to refer to me as "Lord Don".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Thanks John.

Anything you might have on the units in the jpg above would be helpful.

Hi Don.

The French are pretty particular about things. They don't research the archives themselves, they expect you to do that. So they won't respond to general questions. But if you have a specific question about a specific unit/period, it's possible to get a "reglement" from the archives, but don't expect someone to do it for you. Know what you want, they are very helpful. Just want some info, they are like, zut, wtf?

Just fyi. John


(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 8
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 9:14:04 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Aha!

Thanks John, you gave me an idea

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F9e_division_d%2527infanterie_coloniale


(edit)

Double Aha!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9giment_d'infanterie-chars_de_marine


Anyone speak French??







And does anyone know the translation of the terms:

2 REI (apparently an infantry unit of regimental size. Other two units in 3rd Coloniale Division are "RIC" which is Colonial Infantry Regiment).

13 DBLE. A Marine unit possibly of regimental size.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 5/5/2013 10:04:04 PM >

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 9
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 9:15:19 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41344
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Thanks

Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.

Also chasing something named "The Colonial Cavalry Regiment" as being in the 9th at some time. Possibly a recon unit??



quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sub-units for the 3rd and 9th in January 45 (for the German Nordwind offensive):

3e Division d'infanterie Algerienne: 3e and 7e Regiments de Tirailleurs Algerienne(RTA), 4e Regiment de Tirailleurs Tunisiens(RTT), 67e Regiment de Artillerie d'Afrique(RAA).

9e Division d'infanterie Coloniale: 4e, 6e and 13e Regiments de Tirailleurs Sénégalais(RTS), Regiment d'Artillerie Colonial du Maroc(RAMC)

Both divisions followed the standard US pattern, but were equipped in a very slipshod manner, due to logistical problems.

Source: Osprey Campaign 223 - Operation Nordwind 1945




At the time there was an ongoing process called "blanchisement" ("whitening"), which involved exchanging colonial troops for former members of the FFI (French resistance). It was entirely political, and detested by field commanders who appreciated the toughness of their colonial troops and didn't want undisciplined ex-partisans in their units.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 10
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/5/2013 11:02:57 PM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 609
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline
Hi,

13 DBLE 13th Demi-Brigade de Legion Etranger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Demi-Brigade_of_the_Foreign_Legion

2 REI 2e Régiment étranger d'Infanterie http://2rei.legion-etrangere.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Foreign_Infantry_Regiment

The text in the box would be fairly close to this (I'm not that good at French unfortunately):

The Far East Naval Brigade

Initially constituted (correct English word?) at Arcachon, it arrived in several convoys to Indochina. It consisted of:

Company Merlet, named according to the "Vessel" Lieutenant (I guess naval lieutenant is a better translation) in command
Company Dalet, after the commanding officer
The staff of naval Captain Kilian, commander of the BMEO
The armoured regiment of Naval Fusiliers, Shock amphibious unit for landings (not exactly sure about this part)
Marine signal company
Administrative centre of the brigade (CABEO)
1st River Flotilla of Naval Fusiliers
2nd River Flotilla of Naval Fusiliers

The last two units, created by the initiative of Frigate Captain Jaubert, used LCAs, LCVPs, LCIs, LCMs, "Barge battleships" (armoured barges is probably better http://www.netmarine.net/forces/operatio/indo/chaland.htm), armed junks, Japanese patrol boats and LCIs and launches

Repair company
Other attached adminstrative elements of the BMEO:
- The "traditional squadron" (Honor guard?) of the 1st Regiment of the Naval Fusiliers, the personal guard of the High Commissioner
- The Naval Parachute Commandos from SASB 1
- 2 LST, 8 LCI, 2 LCT and several others, bought later


I hope that helps you a little bit.

/BPRE

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 11
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/6/2013 12:17:33 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Indeed it does. Thanks a lot.

(in reply to BPRE)
Post #: 12
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/8/2013 10:25:40 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
Hi Don,

A few explanations about some of the French terms you might see...

Anything labelled "colonial" refers to marine troops. Those were originally infantry units belonging to the navy (marine in French). They were created by Richelieu, as "troupes de marine" to form boarding parties aboard ships of the line, and expanded over time to serve as garrisons in colonies. They can be recognized by the anchors on their insignia.

In 1900, as there was less need for boarding parties on ships of the line, they changed their name from "troupes de marines" to "troupes coloniales" (or armée coloniale), and were attached to the ministry of colonies. In 1958, as there were less colonies to defend, they were renamed back as "troupes de marine", but still belong to the army (and they still refer to themselves as "la colo").

As a rule, units that have "colonial" in their name (infanterie coloniale, artillerie coloniale) are metropolitan (ie white conscript) outfits. Local units would be named "tirailleurs" and the country of origin : tirailleurs sénégalais, tirailleurs tonkinois, tirailleurs malgaches... There were, to my understanding, no cavalry regiments in the troupes coloniales, so your "colonial cavalry regiment" sounds a bit weird. I suspect those might be Chasseurs d'Afrique, or some light infantry unit (Bat' d'Af or so), reorganised as a recon element.


However, the "troupes colonials" are only part of the pciture. Units defending North Africa were not "troupes coloniales" but formed the Armée d'Afrique. As the colonials, they had european and local units, and had cavalry. European units included the Zouaves and Bataillons d'Afrique (infantry and light infantry), Chasseurs d'Afrique (cavalry), and the Foreign Legion (infantry, but foreign nationals). Whenever you see "Etranger" in the name of a unit, it means opened to foreign nationals, ie FFL (note that the Legion Etrangere belongs to Armée d'Afrique). Local infantry were tirailleurs and goumiers, cavalry was known as spahis.

So, in your post above, the BMEO, with the word Marine all around, is most certainly a unit from the armée coloniale (note the terms fusillier marin and transmission de marine). The REI and DBLE are FFL units, which belong to the Armée d'Afrique. Lieutenant de vaisseau is just the navy term for captain, OF-2 in NATO-speak. Capitaine de vaisseau (the head of BMEO) is OF-5, and the BMEO is a regiment-sized unit.

DBLE is demi brigade de légion étrangère. The term demi-brigade was used to replace the name "regiment" in the revolutionary era. It was then used to denote a smaller unit than a regiment. A regiment would have four, and then three battalions, a demi brigade would have two. For what I know, the 13th DBLE is the only unit that still retains this name.

Hope this helps. Just ask if you need specifics. I can probably help with contacts in Vincennes (did that for John recently, and his errand was probably much more complicated than anything you might need...).

Francois



< Message edited by fcharton -- 5/8/2013 10:41:24 PM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 13
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/8/2013 11:08:52 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Google and I believe the 7th Algerian was replaced by the 47th (French?) Infantry and all three Senegalese Regiments were replaced by (white) Colonial Regiments. Officially because the African soldiers were less able to endure cold weather. Google hints of racial issues as the real reason.


This is weird... For what I understand, the 47th Infantry Regiment (motto Semper Fidelis, go figure!) was a "rappelé" unit, ie existing only in times of mobilisation. As such, it was formed in 1939 and disbanded in 42. It was then rebuilt in 1955 in Algeria, to incorporate conscripts. Also, as a line regiment, it seems strange to see it in what clearly was a troupe coloniale outfit.

The 7th RTA served occupation duty in germany until the early 50s, and then was sent to Indochina. It was considered a pretty reliable unit, in fact it did serve on the french side in Algeria... Don't know where Google found its information, but it seems a bit off.

Francois



< Message edited by fcharton -- 5/8/2013 11:09:27 PM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 14
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/9/2013 12:35:50 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8137
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

Thanks

Found a lot more here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/68366409/39-45-Magazine-HS-002-Indochine-1

Still a bit hazy on the 2nd Armored.
Stuff here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Armored_Division_(France)
and here: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/2e_division_blind%C3%A9e_(France)&prev=/search%3Fq%3D2e%2Bdivision%2Bblind%25C3%25A9e%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1383%26bih%3D778

Can't seem to find a full OOB yet.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 15
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/9/2013 8:38:12 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
The 2eme DB is a difficult outfit, as it grew throughout the war, from a purely free french unit with units from west africa (known then as column leclerc), into a division mostly built from units from the Armée d'Afrique in 1943, then incorporating other elements during the campaigns in France and Germany in 1944 and 1945.

The classical reference work for french OOB would be the "Grandes Unites Françaises" series published by the ministry of defense in the sixties. Volumes one to three will have the 1940 OOB, volume four the 42-43 units, and volume five (which is actually a four book monster) the 44-45 OOB. The data you want should be in volume 5, part 2.

I doubt you can find them in book shops or on Amazon, but specialised libraries certainly have a copy.

http://stonebooks.com/archives/971116.shtml

Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 5/9/2013 8:43:23 AM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 16
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/9/2013 10:28:15 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
About 9th Colonial Division I have the following:

OOB on 8th May 1945

Guard Detachment, Provost Detachment
6th, 21st and 23rd Colonial Infantry Regiments
Moroccan Colonial Infantry Regiment (Armored)
Moroccan Colonial Artillery Regiment (3 groups)
26th Colonial Anti-Aircraft Group
71st (mot.) Colonial Engineer Battalion
71/84th Mixed Signals Company
71st Headquarters Company
171st and 271st Transportation Companies
21st Divisional Ordnance Company
25th Divisional Operations (Quartermaster) Company
25th Medical Battalion

On 29th May 1945 designated for transport to the Far East. In June received volunteers to bring it up to strength. Began moving elements to Marseille for shipment on 30th September 1945, first elements left for Far East on 12th October 1945.

The division was under command of General Jean-Etienne Valluy (who is already in the database)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 17
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/11/2013 12:03:21 AM   
topeverest

 

Posts: 2037
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
Status: offline
Wish I knew this before i began my mod!

Thanks,

BTW JeffK,

IS that a latin catapult quote I finally noticed! It's been decades, but I think it says give me your money or I will throw a big rock at you. Is that right?

_____________________________

Andy M

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 18
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/11/2013 8:03:32 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5130
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Wish I knew this before i began my mod!

Thanks,

BTW JeffK,

IS that a latin catapult quote I finally noticed! It's been decades, but I think it says give me your money or I will throw a big rock at you. Is that right?

Yep.
The translations is;
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head

< Message edited by JeffK -- 5/12/2013 5:18:15 AM >


_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to topeverest)
Post #: 19
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 12:48:45 AM   
dwg

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Lieutenant de vaisseau is just the navy term for captain, OF-2 in NATO-speak. Capitaine de vaisseau (the head of BMEO) is OF-5


Just for clarity for anyone not up to speed on NATO rank equivalencies, that would be Lieutenant de vaisseau = Lieutenant (Naval) = Captain (Army) and Capitaine de vaisseau = Captain (Naval) = Colonel (Army)

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 20
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 1:01:07 AM   
dwg

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BPRE
The armoured regiment of Naval Fusiliers, Shock amphibious unit for landings (not exactly sure about this part)


"Marine Armoured Regiment : Amphibious assault unit to spearhead landings" probably covers it, though, as Francois says, Troupes de Marines have a specialist meaning during France's colonial period that isn't really covered by either 'Marine' or 'Naval Infantry'

(in reply to BPRE)
Post #: 21
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 2:08:14 AM   
dwg

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
TOE I'll assume to be same-as US.

Besides the French names tend to be longer than their English equivalents. That 20-character limit is a bear. Little things like "Coloniale" instead of "Colonial" seem to always cause truncation.


Special Forces units would have had more in common with the UK TOEs than the US.

The full versions of French unit names may be a few letters longer than the English, but they have compact and systematic abbreviations.

French Expeditionary Corps in the Far East = Corps Expéditionnaire Français en Extrême-Orient = CEFEO
(See French Wikipedia entry : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_expéditionnaire_français_en_Extrême-Orient It should be easy enough to pick out units and dates even if you don't speak French, I've added a few of the units it references)

Light Intervention Corps = Corps Léger d'Intervention = CLI (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.L.I. - later becomes 5e RIC)

Study and Research Directorate = Direction Générale des Études et Recherches = DGER (= French intelligence, first French troops back into Indochina were French-manned Jedburgh teams now reporting to DGER - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedburgh_team#Jedburgh_operations_in_the_Far_East )

2nd Armoured Division = 2e Division Blindee = 2e DB
3rd Colonial Infantry Division = 9e Division d'Infanterie Coloniale = 3e DIC
9th Colonial Infantry Division = 9e Division d'Infanterie Coloniale = 9e DIC

5th Colonial Infantry Regiment = 5e Régiment d’Infanterie Coloniale = 5e RIC
11th Colonial Infantry Regiment = 11e Régiment d'Infanterie Coloniale = 11e RIC (liberated part of original French Indochinese garrison)

Far East Brigade = Brigade d'Extrême-Orient = BEO
Far East Marine Brigade = Brigade Marine d'Extrême-Orient = BMEO
3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment = 3e Régiment étranger d'Infanterie = 3e REI
13th Foreign Legion Demi-Brigade = 13e Demi-Brigade de la Legion Etrangere = 13e DBLE (_very_ famous, had essentially been in combat ever since the Norway Campaign of 1940, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Demi-Brigade_of_the_Foreign_Legion)

Anywhere you see 'groupement de marche' (gm) the best translation is probably 'battlegroup', you may also also see Bataillon de Marche, Regiment de Marche and Division de Marche, which are all basically units formed from other units for a specific campaign, the type of unit will go in the middle, so you might get a Bataillon d'Infanteries de Marche (which would be a BIM).

Useful listing (in French)of Coloniale/Troupes de Marine and Armee d'Afrique units: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Régiments_des_colonies (The English Wikipedia's insistence on English translations of most foreign unit names drives me up the wall, I'm so much happier with the French terms I have to translate them back into French to know who they're talking about, even though I'm a native English speaker).

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 22
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 5:43:51 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg
quote:

ORIGINAL: BPRE
The armoured regiment of Naval Fusiliers, Shock amphibious unit for landings (not exactly sure about this part)


"Marine Armoured Regiment : Amphibious assault unit to spearhead landings" probably covers it, though, as Francois says, Troupes de Marines have a specialist meaning during France's colonial period that isn't really covered by either 'Marine' or 'Naval Infantry'


Fusiliers marins are not troupes de marines (or troupes coloniales back then), but Navy. They usually are tasked with protecting naval bases, and providing naval commandos, so I suppose you can call them naval infantry.

In Indochina, they formed riverine troops, "flotilles fluviales", later to be known as Divisions navales d'assaut (dinassaut).

Francois

(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 23
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 6:49:15 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5130
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
Thanks fchartion and others for these details, Street without Joy by Bernard Falls, plus his book on Dien Bien Phu, were always favourites.

The article Don posted says that JFK handed out copies of "Guns of August" during the Cuban Missile Crisis and should have sent copies of La Rue Sans Joie before they decided to get involved more deeply in Vietnam.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 24
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 8:16:18 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dwg
Anywhere you see 'groupement de marche' (gm) the best translation is probably 'battlegroup', you may also also see Bataillon de Marche, Regiment de Marche and Division de Marche, which are all basically units formed from other units for a specific campaign, the type of unit will go in the middle, so you might get a Bataillon d'Infanteries de Marche (which would be a BIM).


Just to elaborate on that, the term "de marche" is used in a number of cases :

- for temporary units made out of unaffected troops, usually out of depot or just mobilised, marching to the front where they would be dispatched to regular units, this is the original meaning
- for the reverse situation, units marching back from the front to depots, usually remnants of units
- then for adhoc units incorporating elements detached from various parents, this was typical in colonial and foreign expeditions, where one would assemble a régiment de marche from a collection of battalions taken from colonial units in the area. This was the case in Indochina
- then again, for any unit used out of its original command : for instance, during WWI, many battaillons d'infanterie légère d'afrique (aka bat' d'af, units which conscripted former convicted felons), were detached to the West front, and just changed their name to BMILA (bataillon de marche d'infanterie légère d'Afrique). A similar situation happened after Sedan, in 1870, when colonial troops were called in, and formed Zouaves de marche, chasseurs de marche, in the infamous Bourbaki army.

During WWII, the last case happened with the Régiment de marche du Tchad, which used to be Régiment de tirailleurs sénégalais du Tchad, but was renamed to indicate the change of command, and the incorporation of (a small number of) volunteers from the free french. The régiment de marche du Tchad became the first free french regiment, and was allowed to keep its "de marche" afterwards (it is still named that, even though it is not a temporary force)

I believe other Free French regiments originally from the Armée d'Afrique (loyal to Vichy until 43) added "de marche" to their name to stress their difference (but most reverted to their original names later)

Another famous gotcha is the 3e REI, which took back the name Régiment de marche de la Légion Etrangère from 43 to 45. The RMLE had been created during WWI to incorporate several battalions of the FFL (which belonged to Armée d'Afrique) fighting in France. After the war, the unit was kept and renamed the 3e REI. In 1942, after Torch, it became the 3eREIM régiment étranger d'infanterie de marche, and then took back its former name as RMLE.

But in general, "de marche" more or less means "provisional".

Francois

(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 25
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 10:28:48 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

The 2eme DB is a difficult outfit, as it grew throughout the war, from a purely free french unit with units from west africa (known then as column leclerc), into a division mostly built from units from the Armée d'Afrique in 1943, then incorporating other elements during the campaigns in France and Germany in 1944 and 1945.

The classical reference work for french OOB would be the "Grandes Unites Françaises" series published by the ministry of defense in the sixties. Volumes one to three will have the 1940 OOB, volume four the 42-43 units, and volume five (which is actually a four book monster) the 44-45 OOB. The data you want should be in volume 5, part 2.

I doubt you can find them in book shops or on Amazon, but specialised libraries certainly have a copy.

http://stonebooks.com/archives/971116.shtml

Francois


Hi,

do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?

Thanks!

K


(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 26
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 10:53:47 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2736
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Street without Joy by Bernard Falls [...] were always favourites


In this context, the OOB of the French Army in the Far East should include the "hallowed institution of French colonial forces, the B.M.C." - in game terms a base force with a couple of support squads .

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 5/13/2013 10:54:06 AM >


_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 27
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 11:11:14 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline

Hi Kereguelen,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?


It certainly wasn't sent as a whole. As far as I know, only the groupement de marche, about 2000 men, was sent to Indochina in late 1945. The rest of the division served duty in France, and the 2eme DB was disbanded in March 46, some of its components being reaffected to other units. Most armored regiments contributed a company (or escadron), I believe a significant part of the bataillon de marche du Tchad went, too, and some support elements.

But then, as many elements of the division remained after it was disbanded, and as the Indochina war lasts until 1954, it is quite possible that part of those units were sent there later. We are just discussing the early elements of the CEFEO, those that restored French rule over Indochina in 45, right?

Francois

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 28
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 11:42:46 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1775
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


Hi Kereguelen,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
do you know if the whole 2nd Armoured Division was send to Indochina. As far as I can tell, only Groupement Massu was present?


It certainly wasn't sent as a whole. As far as I know, only the groupement de marche, about 2000 men, was sent to Indochina in late 1945. The rest of the division served duty in France, and the 2eme DB was disbanded in March 46, some of its components being reaffected to other units. Most armored regiments contributed a company (or escadron), I believe a significant part of the bataillon de marche du Tchad went, too, and some support elements.

But then, as many elements of the division remained after it was disbanded, and as the Indochina war lasts until 1954, it is quite possible that part of those units were sent there later. We are just discussing the early elements of the CEFEO, those that restored French rule over Indochina in 45, right?

Francois


Hi Francois,

thanks! And yes, only the CEFEO. The stock AE OOB for the French was mainly based on what I was able to find out about the French units that actually landed in Indochina in late 1945, btw.

K

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 29
RE: French Army in the Far East 1945 - 5/13/2013 1:21:02 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 949
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
Hi K,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
thanks! And yes, only the CEFEO. The stock AE OOB for the French was mainly based on what I was able to find out about the French units that actually landed in Indochina in late 1945, btw.


To my shame, I must say I never checked the Free French OOB in AE... From this (sorry about wikipedia, I'm at work and lack the time): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_exp%C3%A9ditionnaire_fran%C3%A7ais_en_Extr%C3%AAme-Orient
It looks like a couple of units are missing

quote:


Le premier détachement français, constitué d'une compagnie du 5e RIC/CLI, débarque à Saigon le 12 septembre 1945 avec les troupes britanniques du major général Gracey (20e division indienne).
Le 21 septembre, les troupes valides du 11e RIC (1 400 hommes), emprisonnées dans leur caserne depuis le coup de force japonais du 9 mars, sont libérées et réarmées.
Le 3 octobre, le commando Ponchardier et le reste du 5e RIC débarquent à leur tour en Indochine.


ie :

The first French detachment, one company from 5th RIC/CLI lands in Saigon on 45/9/12, with the British troops of Major Gracey (20th Indian Division).
On September 21st, the remaining troops of the 11th RIC (1 400 men), held in their barracks since the Japanese coup on the 9th of March, are freed and rearmed.
On the 3rd of October, Commando Ponchardier and the rest of the 5th RIC arrive in Indochina.

Which means there should be 2 infantry regiments by early october (OOB says one base force)

and then :
quote:


du 15 au 21 octobre : GM/2e DB (groupement de marche de la 2e DB) aux ordres du lieutenant-colonel Massu (2 000 hommes),
décembre 1945 : 9e DIC du général Valluy,


you have those two.

quote:


fin décembre 1945, BEO (brigade d'Extrême-Orient, 1 200 hommes),
décembre 1945, 3e REI,
février 1946 : 3e DIC du général Nyo,
février 1946, 1er bataillon de parachutistes SAS du chef d'escadron Mollat,
mars 1946, 13e DBLE,
19 juin 1946, 2e bataillon de parachutistes SAS du chef de bataillon Mollat.


Those seem to be missing (I didn't see the paras in the british OOB either). I don't think it breaks the game or anything, just that... for the sake of completeness.

A few more I've spotted : "1st Regt de Cheval Tank Regiment" might win the prize for the funniest french unit if one was given. To a french reader, this sounds a bit like "First horsemeat tank regiment" or something... I suspect you meant 1st Chasseurs (à cheval). As for the Free French Command, I believe it would be better to consider it under Leclerc than De Gaulle in late 45.

Not criticizing, mind you, I'll fight whichever French you give me, once my game arrives in 1945, but since we're on the subject...

Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 5/13/2013 1:57:02 PM >

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> French Army in the Far East 1945 Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.109