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Killer Tank of the 80's

 
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Killer Tank of the 80's


American M1(IP)
  3% (1)
American M1A1
  38% (10)
British Challenger 1
  15% (4)
British Chieftain Mk 11
  0% (0)
West German Leopard 2A1
  30% (8)
West German Leopard 1A5
  3% (1)
Soviet T-80U
  7% (2)
Soviet T-80BV
  0% (0)
Soviet T-64BV
  0% (0)
Soviet T-72BM
  0% (0)


Total Votes : 26
(last vote on : 5/13/2013 1:28:36 AM)
(Poll ended: 5/13/2013 7:00:00 AM)
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Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/3/2013 9:13:57 PM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		Which of the following tanks would have been the most efficient tank killing machine of the Third World War? And why?

Tank versus tank. Best kill ratio at the end of the conflict.

< Message edited by Capn Darwin -- 5/3/2013 10:38:52 PM >

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RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/3/2013 10:33:12 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		One vote for the Leo 2 but no comment about why it was the one that was voted for.

I'm thinking we need a bit of clarification about what 'most efficient tank killing machine' means. Does that mean tank vs tank, overall tank kills by that type by the time the war is over, kill ratio's...what exactly are we looking for here?

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 2
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/4/2013 2:25:12 PM   
wodin


Posts: 7850
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Whilst checking out these tanks I came across this..it made me chuckle..

"Similar to every British tank since the Centurion, and most other British AFVs, Challenger 2 contains a boiling vessel (BV) also known as a kettle or bivvie for water which can be used to brew tea, produce other hot beverages and heat boil-in-the-bag meals contained in ration packs.[9] This BV requirement is general for armoured vehicles of the British Armed Forces, and is unique to the armed forces of the UK."

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Post #: 3
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/4/2013 4:17:25 PM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		@ Wodin - That is funny. I guess we need to model a tea break in the command cycle.

_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 4
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/4/2013 5:52:00 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		When I trained with BAOR in the mid 70's that was absolutely true! And yes, tea time would stop the war during training exercises!

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 5
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/4/2013 8:58:51 PM   
cbelva

 

Posts: 921
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline 		Funny, we didn't get tea time when I trained with the West German Army in the 80s.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 6
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/4/2013 9:00:18 PM   
Hexagon

 

Posts: 647
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Leo2, the best combination of armor, firepower and movility... and the 2nd one, M1, be a killer after copy all it can from Leo2

Challenger is for me the 3rd option but i doubt between it and T-80U

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 7
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/4/2013 11:05:02 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about using WWII tanks.

Most tank kills per type. PzIII took out the entire 1940 Western Allied tank park as well as over 17,000 Soviet tanks in the first 6 months of the war in Russia. By far the most successful tank killer of WWII.

Highest tank vs tank kill ratio. This is always in debate but the Tiger I usually takes that prize.

Tank vs Tank killer would more than likely be voted the Panther, because of it's tremendous combination of firepower, protection and mobility.

Best tank of WWII usually is a toss up between the Panther, T-34 and Sherman for varying reasons.

Which ever tank you choose as your own personal 'best' will be determined by one of the same criteria used to describe the WWII 'Best Tank' title winner. Depends on the criteria used as to who the winner is.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/4/2013 11:06:15 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 8
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 12:47:59 AM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		Let's go with your Tank versus tank killer basis. Which is the Panther of WW3?


_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 9
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 1:27:56 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		If it is tank on tank it can't be anything other than the latest versions of each nations tank park.

That leaves out the T-72 and T-64, as well as the M1(IP), Leo I and the Chieftain II.

That would leave you with the T-80U, M1A1, Challenger 1 and Leopard 2.

Here are the in-game data sources for the 4 tanks.

Because of the Gulf Wars there is a public image that Western tanks are far better than their Soviet counterparts. Nothing could be further from the truth. Taking T-72's crewed with Arabs is nothing like challenging T-80's with Soviet crews in them. NATO would find it hard going against the modern Soviet tanks with quality crews. It's interesting to note that the M1 Abrams has the weakest armor of the 4 main contenders in a battle for Germany. That would not bode well for US tankers.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/6/2013 2:25:15 AM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 10
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 2:35:47 AM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		MR, you will want to flip the M1IP out for the M1A1 with the 120mm gun. And something looks way off with the Soviet 125mm AP value. I will look into that Sunday.


_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 11
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 11:11:55 AM   
Hexagon

 

Posts: 647
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Well, you use M1A1 that is the improved version with the 120mm sure its superior to the Leo2A1 but this Leo2 was the competitor of the M1 with 105mm, when appear the M1A1 germans have the Leo2A4 with similar gun to M1A1 and even better armor than A1.

Soviet tanks are not bad, allways have good numbers in protection, movility and firepower BUT they sacrifice important areas to have these numbers and they are as vehicle inferior in general... to have good armor they decide create a small tank this affect internal space that made 2 critical things, one is increase the chance that a pen hit something critical and crew lose effiency when the fight is long apart this finally they change the loader for a autoload system that is slower than a human loader and load less ammo... well, they are not planed to survive a lot and lose one tank is less critical for soviets than for NATO.

I find the point in T series but they are average tanks for average crews, nations that have armored forces as "elite" units find T series not very usefull for they armored "way of life".

Is hard find a relation between WWII and WWIII tanks maybe because west tanks are something like Tiger II meets med movility and soviets have something like KV-13 but mixing T-34/85 with IS-2.

For me when i compare tanks to decide what is better i allways do the same, ask "in what tank i want be in a fight???" thats solve all in tank by tank comparison other question is in a superior level where you are not in the tank and command them, here is a question of tastes and i dont see a great diference between soviet or west, trade quality for numbers.

PD: a little question... the game covers the first weeks in war no??? but in the very last battles you can see WP and NATO reserve units??? is something i allways dislike in Tiller MC, you are unable to use the 2nd and 3rd line reserves.

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 5/5/2013 11:13:09 AM >

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 12
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 3:01:12 PM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		Not sure what I did wrong but a number of tank gun APs were messed up. I fixed them last night after going back through various data sources. That is the beauty of beta testing. Find the bugs early. Revised data files in the next update.

_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 13
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 4:31:56 PM   
Hexagon

 

Posts: 647
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		A little question, gun doesnt have an accurancy value like in SPBMT??? ooo and what means (AD) in weapons???

Thanks.

PD: dont worry, i edit an OOB for a game, test it, search bugs etc etc only to find a wrong value when i start playing it in a team game 3 VS 3

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 5/5/2013 4:33:12 PM >

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 14
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/5/2013 4:56:36 PM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		AD = Air Defense capable. There are a number of additional factors in the database for accuracy, fire control, range finding, etc. Not all of them show. In the case of tank guns the accuracy value of the "projectile" is low being unguided, but fire control and other systems of the tank itself give the weapon its final hit/kill values.


_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 15
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/6/2013 2:27:16 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Here are the correct values for the tanks.

Considering gun penetration vs front armor and mobility it looks to me like the T-80U is set to be the tank killer in WWIII.

We'll see if that holds true.

In any case my vote is for the T-80U to be the best AFV for tank vs tank combat.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/6/2013 2:29:23 AM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 16
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/6/2013 2:38:59 AM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		There are a few things that hurt the T-80U. No thermal sight. And the fire control and stability is not on par with its NATO counterparts. It does come at you in bigger numbers though.

_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 17
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/6/2013 2:56:10 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		There are some things that help the T-80 in Germany though. Fog, the sun at dusk/dawn, it has a thermal/optical jammer, is a small target, with the shorter engagement ranges in Europe it won't be at a disadvantage with optics, it being smaller makes it easier to maneuver in the tight confines of many European villages.

Considering the Abrams much weaker defensive armor that's going to add up to trouble for NATO.

All in all, the T-80U will be a formidable foe.

As with most peacetime arms race there is no weapons system that is heads and shoulders above the rest. In short, I don't think there would have been an equivalent to the Panther in WWIII.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/6/2013 3:21:42 AM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 18
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/6/2013 3:38:07 AM   
Richie61


Posts: 224
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

Leo2, the best combination of armor, firepower and movility... and the 2nd one, M1, be a killer after copy all it can from Leo2

Challenger is for me the 3rd option but i doubt between it and T-80U



I have lined them both up in Shock Force and the M1 always wins! - LOL!

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To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 19
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/6/2013 11:39:53 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		And there you have it.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 20
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/6/2013 6:14:18 PM   
Hexagon

 

Posts: 647
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the clarification about AD.

I dont know how is the game and if it has more parameters apart these... but i feel a little "strange" when see this values, of course T-80U armor was good but i feel that Leo2, M1 and Challenger have weaker armor and worst firepower... but again, things like unit experience can change this.... a very important area in a game like this.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 21
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/12/2013 11:18:34 PM   
sapper32


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: Warminster England
Status: offline 		Challenger for me good all round tank,high speed not to important in a built up Germany,good gun and well trained crew which has got to be the vital ingrediant.

Ian

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 22
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/13/2013 1:07:44 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12372
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		It's interesting the German reliance on speed for a tank and the British attitude of speed being the least important thing a tank needs.

Not saying who is right or wrong just interesting what the different camps believe.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to sapper32)
Post #: 23
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/14/2013 6:27:48 AM   
Richie61


Posts: 224
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		Not trying to start a battle here, but I thought that the US measures their armor different from others.
quote:

Protection levels for US MBT's are larger than usually quoted because the US standard is for a 30 degrees oblique shot.




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To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

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Post #: 24
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/14/2013 11:43:32 AM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		Richie,

That is why we look at data from various sources that rate the armors on a standard setup. That eliminates the bias you are talking about. Same thing is done for gun pen values too. Never trust the marketing specs from the vendor.

_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

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On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 25
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/14/2013 4:09:12 PM   
jack54


Posts: 631
Joined: 7/18/2007
From: East Tennessee
Status: online 		The stats of the T-80 are very impressive, (suprisingly so imho). my reason for not voting for it is the 'offensive role' it will play... they will probably die in bunches. I would have thought by '89 that the Leo would be the upgraded A4 but I will bow to your research... so I voted Abrams because of the gun... and what I believe will be an excellent fire control system. (I am, however, not 'convinced'.)LOL


Ps: alas, I cannot register my vote in the poll.... I was too Late!

< Message edited by jack54 -- 5/14/2013 4:18:54 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/14/2013 7:55:10 PM   
Hexagon

 

Posts: 647
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline 		Yep, is unfair use the A1 version and not A4 with at least same gun as Abrams and better protection... but something i see now... why T-80U has only 80 points??? maybe 90-100 is better no??? i supose that T-72 and T-64 are the soviet main forces... what are their value???

(in reply to jack54)
Post #: 27
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/14/2013 8:04:14 PM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		Guys, I would not get too wrapped up in these values and versions selected. There are a good number of tanks in the game including the versions you mentioned. The idea was to get folks talking about tanks of the time frame and see which ones people liked.

_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 28
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/15/2013 2:38:46 PM   
jack54


Posts: 631
Joined: 7/18/2007
From: East Tennessee
Status: online 		Thanks Capn Darwin, good to know, I was also very happy to learn that there are other ratings not seen on the ratings cards such optics, stablization systems. Very good stuff!....

Correct me if I'm wrong but
As far as point values I would assume they represent availability as well as quality... so a lower point value for T-80 may
also indicate that there are more of them; not necessarily a poorer tactical ability.

thanks

waiting ... aaaa 'patiently' lol
Jack


< Message edited by jack54 -- 5/15/2013 3:53:29 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Killer Tank of the 80's - 5/15/2013 4:23:07 PM   
Capn Darwin


Posts: 4032
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: online 		The points show are our Victory Point calculation based on the weapon systems and platform parameters and equipment. The higher the value the more lethal the platform. The calculation is done in code as a anti-cheat measure, but there is a setting in each national data file that is used to adjust the value to reflect overall equipment quality.

Probably more than you wanted to hear.

_____________________________

Working on the Tutorial Guide and Mod Guide 4.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to jack54)
Post #: 30
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