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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41.

 
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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/9/2013 10:30:36 PM   
Michael T


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There was a problem with this *new* rule initially. Units were going up too fast regardless of distance from the front. That has been addressed with 1.07.08. I have tested that.

It is true that units can get to ~50 morale from ~35 morale in around 3 turns if they are in refit and more than 10 hexes from the front. I did not realize this before. I really only thought units could get around 2 morale per turn. It is only since I started these tests that I found they could get as much as 5 pts morale in one one turn. I don't like it but it has been that way since day one apparently.

I stand by my statement that a game with no HR is a easy win for Russia between equal players. The *new* , fixed rule exacerbates this imbalance but only slightly so.

I still assert that Soviet units in 1941 gain morale too fast. This all feeds in to the Soviet runaway strategy very nicely.

Why am I still playing German? Well I would not without the HR I use. SD rules, Reserve limits, para limits etc.

In my game with Kamil we have agreed to use the new SD conditions from Lost Battles as well.

These conditions bring the game back to a closer more balanced scenario IMO. I would still like to do something to limit Soviet runaways in July/August 41. I am working on that aspect.

The SD rules from Lost Battles will bring to an end German running, bravo. So we need something to stop Ivan from running.

I want to devise a HR that dissuades Soviet runaways that still allows the Lvov. I rarely get involved in the Lvov debates. But IMO Lvov is only guaranteed if the Axis commit at least an extra Pz Corp to that operation. So who is to say that if they had done that in the real war a Lvov pocket was not possible? I say that if the Axis does not commit extra forces to the South then the Lvov pocket is risky and may well blow up in your face if the Soviet decides to fight rather than run.

I was leaning to a HR that forbids the Soviets evacuating industry from key cities prior to a certain date in 1941 to stop the running. This would mean they must fight with less running, which means less units getting the bonus morale gains from being more than 10 hexes from the front. But now I am thinking just add a SD condition for August 1941, something that will force Russia to fight between Vitebsk and Vyzma in the Centre and West of the Dniepr in the South.


_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
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(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 91
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/10/2013 12:34:19 AM   
BrianG

 

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these minor rules would help

While on train, gain of 1 morale max /turn

and no forts may be built by russian on the svir river thus forcing at least brigade size units to defend the line.

And does the NM drop for the russians later to 45 or is it now always 50?

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 92
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/10/2013 12:43:42 AM   
Joel Billings


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Soviet NM drops 1 point per turn starting in July 41 to a low of 44 in Dec 41 before going to 45 in 1942.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 93
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/10/2013 12:57:38 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

Soviet NM drops 1 point per turn starting in July 41 to a low of 44 in Dec 41 before going to 45 in 1942


This is true but as Soviet I don't seem to have much of a problem keeping my units at morale 50 once I get there.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
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(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 94
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/10/2013 1:09:54 AM   
BrianG

 

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well if they start dropping in July, by turn 3 the NM s/b 49, turn 7 or 8 48 etc and thus these units should not get to 50.

or am i missing something

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 95
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/10/2013 1:22:08 AM   
Michael T


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This whole issue of Soviet morale in 1941 is a critical aspect of how well the Axis can do. Soviet units with morale 40-45 have a decent chance of routing. Whereas Soviets close to 50 and above just don't rout. So anyone who plays the game can see an Army with high morale will at first stem the Axis momentum then stifle it completely in quick time. Whereas a Soviet Army that is mainly around 40-45 will wilt and struggle to hold back the Axis, with logistics being the main brake. Its too fine a line between total collapse and the brick wall.

BrianG, see the rules below. Having a National Morale less than 50 really does not matter. You can get your units to 50 morale quite easily and keep them there. If they changed the caps in the limits below from down from 50 to suit whatever the NM was at that time we would see that 50 morale would be unsustainable. But according to the rules and the actual working game as it stands NM less than 50 is a misnomer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9.1.1. Ground Unit Morale Changes

The morale of a unit will increase when it is successful in combat (holds on defense or retreats the defender when attacking). The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances:

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.

Ground unit morale will decrease due to losing battles, suffering from air interdiction, being in an isolated state, and Axis morale losses due to the first winter rules (22.3). There is also a morale penalty for Finnish units that move south of specific hexes on the map area (19.1.1).

Retreated units lose one morale point, which is increased to a loss of two morale points if the leader Morale check fails.

Routed units lose one additional morale point.

Isolated units may lose one or more morale depending on existing supply shortages.

Units attacked by an interdiction air mission that lose more than nine MPs may lose one morale if random(100) is less than unit fatigue and the leader Morale rating check fails.

Units which are missing morale and fatigue rolls can lose morale during logistic phase.

v1.04.10 - April 18, 2011

Adjusted the amount of morale a unit loses after a battle. Now units are not guaranteed to lose a morale point when a battle is lost. The higher a unit’s morale is over its national morale, the greater the chance the morale will be reduced when it loses a battle.

v1.05.18 - September 6, 2011

Changed rule so that the morale gain from refit when under 50 morale is only gained when the unit in refit is at least 10 hexes from a supplied enemy unit (similar to the current gain if less than morale 50 and 10 or more hexes from enemy unit). Gary Grigsby's War in the East Manual v0.64 Apr 04, 2013

v1.05.28 - September 29, 2011

Poorly supplied units can lose morale. If at the end of the logistics phase a unit has less than 20% of needed supplies, it has a chance of losing 1 morale point. If the value is less than 10% there is a chance of losing 2 morale points.

v1.05.53 - January 4, 2012

Each logistics phase there is chance that a unit can lose a morale point due to fatigue. The higher the fatigue and the lower the morale of the unit, the greater the chance that the unit must make a leader morale check to avoid a morale loss.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 96
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/10/2013 1:51:03 AM   
BrianG

 

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russian NM should start lower.

Maybe 47


And start rising a random week in Dec 41.


(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 97
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/13/2013 11:54:23 AM   
Pelton

 

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I beleive what MT is saying is what I have been saying for over a yr NM is window dressing.

The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances:


1.The unit's morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.

2. The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.


3.The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.

In other words based on player testing

SHC NM is 50 on turn 1, 2by3 can say it under but if you simply run run run as SHC your units will gain morale to 50.

Briang 2by3 can say SHC NM 25 if they want, but it will go to 50 because of the current rule set (1,2,3).



< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/13/2013 11:57:28 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to BrianG)
Post #: 98
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/13/2013 12:07:52 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I can't speak to exactly how quickly a unit would go to 50 morale in the old system, but can say for a fact that the only change is that there is now a 15% chance that a unit that is below it's national morale will go up die(nm/10). All other rules from the past are the same, so the ability of a unit to go up when in refit in the rear has been increased by an average of a little less than 1/2 point per turn than what it used to be. Michael's test simply show that the chance has always been high to go up when in refit and more than 10 hexes from the enemy. This should have always been a big part of the Soviet player's strategy (keeping units in refit in the rear to train up).



9.1.1. Ground Unit Morale Changes

The morale of a unit will increase when it is successful in combat (holds on defense or retreats the defender when attacking). The morale of a unit may also increase during the friendly logistics phase due to any and all of the following circumstances:

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.

So if SHC NM was listed 20, 30, 40, 45 or even 1 in 1941, SHC NM is really 50 based on these simple exploits anyone can use by simply running.(higher odds chances)

You can do as MT asks and lower SHC NM in 41 to 45 or even 40, it really doesn't matter because SHC NM is really 50 based on the rule set(coding) and not something printed in the rule book.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/13/2013 12:12:28 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 99
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/13/2013 2:41:28 PM   
morvael


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Simply put, there are more chances for morale increase if it is under 50 (3 rules apply), than if it is under National Morale (2 rules if NM is under 75, otherwise 1 rule). Main benefactor of this situation - Soviets.

If all four rules would be tied to NM, then it would create equal situation for all sides, dependent only on their respective NM:
1) The unit's morale is below NM, and it is in refit mode.
2) The unit's morale is below NM, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.
3) The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale.
4) The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than NM. If Die (NM) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.

< Message edited by morvael -- 5/13/2013 2:42:18 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 100
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/13/2013 10:05:12 PM   
Michael T


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Yes, this exactly what I said. I wish they would do it. Why bother with a NM less than 50 with these rules. It non sensical and to defend it is laughable

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Post #: 101
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/13/2013 11:11:37 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

Why bother with a NM less than 50 with these rules. It non sensical and to defend it is laughable


Axis allies also benefit from these rules. The rapid recovery of Romanian morale after the blizzard surprised me. Especially for units I pulled way back.

I think the special role of 50 is defensible. Using a sports analogy, it is far easier to train a team up to be competitive in intramural sport than it is to be competitive in intercollegiate sport. Considerations include the quality of the manpower pool, the quality of the leadership pool and doctrine.

Right now, if there is a problem, IMHO it is the notion that morale so outweighs experience in the game calculation.


(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 102
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/14/2013 12:04:31 AM   
Michael T


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Experience has no direct bearing on rout probablity. And it is routs that facilitate breakthru's.

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'Deus le Volt!'
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Post #: 103
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/14/2013 12:46:37 PM   
rrbill

 

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Michael, is that the way the code has been done, or, is that the way it should be? Think that "experience" is a factor in "routs" in real situations.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 104
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/14/2013 10:01:58 PM   
Michael T


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Units only break due to morale check failure. A lack of experience will increase the chances of losing the battle, which triggers the morale check. So experience matters, but it doesn't make any difference on the morale check itself.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 105
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/19/2013 11:08:49 AM   
Mehring

 

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Didn't trawl through all the above, but has anyone mentioned casualties?

Low morale/experience Russians can attack and win battles but they pay a terrible price, as they should. Up morale and experience and they're winning battles without these losses. This means the same units can attack repeatedly with little or no break. An Russian offensive, then, causing more losses to the Germans than to the Russians, will have an entirely different set of consequences than before.

The attack doctrine becomes a feature with no downside for the Russians. If it was always a substitute for a genuinely seperate Russian attack system that reflects their doctrines and abilities, in the context of high Russian morale, it's no longer viable at all.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 106
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