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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41.

 
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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/7/2013 1:37:06 AM   
rmonical

 

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I initially attacked this problem from the Axis perspective as the recovery after the blizzard was not according to the rules. I have not played the Soviets in a campaign game. However, one thing that has bothered me about this entire discussion is that the notion that a newly raised division hangs around STAVKA for a couple of months and it is more combat effective than a division that got its butt kicked for a couple of months then was pulled out of the line to receive replacements.

IMHO, the Russia successes during the blizzard are directly related to the combat experience gained whilst losing battles but not getting surrounded and captured.

(in reply to Shupov)
Post #: 61
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/7/2013 3:41:45 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

I initially attacked this problem from the Axis perspective as the recovery after the blizzard was not according to the rules. I have not played the Soviets in a campaign game. However, one thing that has bothered me about this entire discussion is that the notion that a newly raised division hangs around STAVKA for a couple of months and it is more combat effective than a division that got its butt kicked for a couple of months then was pulled out of the line to receive replacements.

IMHO, the Russia successes during the blizzard are directly related to the combat experience gained whilst losing battles but not getting surrounded and captured.


This is an artifact of the morale system. It rewards wins, and penalizes losses in a fairly binary fashion. I'm not entirely thrilled with this myself for reasons beyond those you mention.

It's all about momentum.


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(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 62
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/7/2013 4:42:22 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

However, one thing that has bothered me about this entire discussion is that the notion that a newly raised division hangs around STAVKA for a couple of months and it is more combat effective than a division that got its butt kicked for a couple of months then was pulled out of the line to receive replacements.


The division I have problems with was one of those that "got its butt kicked", but then for two years stayed on low morale, despite being in the rear on refit (and it's army commander wasn't that bad in Morale skill). The only solution I found is to use such division to form a rifle corps (with a 50 morale rifle brigade and other high-40 division).

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 63
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/7/2013 7:12:22 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

The division I have problems with was one of those that "got its butt kicked", but then for two years stayed on low morale, despite being in the rear on refit (and it's army commander wasn't that bad in Morale skill). The only solution I found is to use such division to form a rifle corps (with a 50 morale rifle brigade and other high-40 division).


It will be interesting to see how 2x3 handles British morale when they get around to doing the first part of the war in the west.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 64
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/7/2013 11:10:46 PM   
Michael T


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Ok ran same tests again with the new patch 1.07.08

I do not see a drastic reduction in morale gain. Its a marginal improvement at best.

Same 10 ID as before.

Unit ID - Start Morale/ Morale at T3 1.07.07/ Morale at T3 1.07.08 / Difference in gain between version 07 & 08 / Total Morale gain in 2 turns.

178 - 32/41/43 / +2 / 11
18 - 37/51/48 / -3 / 11
144 - 40/49/48 / -1 / 8
166 - 37/50/45 / -5 / 8
187 - 33/41/42 / +1 / 9
229 - 39/47/48 / +1 / 9
160 - 37/45/46 / +1 / 9
170 - 33/43/43 / 0 / 10
186 - 32/43/40 / -3 / 8
98 - 35/47/43 / -4 / 8

I ran another totally new test on 10 ID using 1.07.08 from scratch rather than patching up.

Unit ID - T1 morale/ T3 morale - gain

166 - 39/46 - 7
133 -31/39 - 8
186 - 38/48 - 10
98 - 39/47 - 8
137 - 37/48 - 11
187 - 37/46 - 9
132 - 33/40 - 7
158 - 34/43 - 9
162 - 37/47 - 10
61 - 38/47 - 9

Average gain per unit per turn 4.4 using 1.07.08, under 1.07.07 it was 5.1 per turn. This is hardly a drastic reduction.

It's still too much morale gain in a matter of 2 turns. Honestly if this is the new paradigm for 1941 my days as a German player are done.

What does it mean game wise? All the Soviet need do is stick all units in refit, run for the hills for several turns and he will have an army with most units having a morale around 50.


Joel, why don't you simply leave this rule out of 1941. Easy fix that does not affect the status quo prior to 1.07.07.


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Post #: 65
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 12:45:55 AM   
Michael T


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Joel I did some more tests and the problem only seems to be for units attached to Armies that are attached to Stavka. It seems other units are ok, like you say no major impact.

But the Soviets have many units under Stavka at start AND if as a Soviet player I know I am going to get a ~9 point morale boost in 2 turn for Armies under Stavka I will be shuffling units in and out of those armies like a production line.


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Post #: 66
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 1:05:54 AM   
Joel Billings


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There is nothing in the code having to do with the Die(10/NM) having to do with Stavka. If Stavka is doing something, it's somewhere else in the code and not in that section. There used to be something in that section having to do with Stavka, but it was only units directly attached to Stavka, so it didn't explain what you were seeing with units attached to armies attached to Stavka. I'll ask Pavel and Gary to look for any other items that might be looking at Stavka, but it would be a big surprise if there's something in the code that's relatively new.

I will say that in looking at the code there is a huge difference for units in refit in the rear and those not. Units in the rear in refit can gain 4-5 points a turn just per the old rules. I ran a test of units that were not in refit and on the front and less than 1 in 5 got any bump in morale at all under the new rules. Maybe you've discoverd some long undocumented feature that units attached to Armies under Stavka get a special boost. If they do, it's not new.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 67
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 1:14:49 AM   
Michael T


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It seems units NOT in Armies attached to Stavka gain around 1 pt of morale per turn due to the *new* rule. Whereas units that ARE in Armies attached to Stavka are gaining around 3 pts of morale per turn. This morale gain is independent of any gains from refit. That is none of the units I tested in this case were in refit.

But they were more than 10 hexes from the front.

This rule, if left as is means the Soviets simply put a bunch of rear guys in refit under Stavka Armies and they will be morale 50 in 2-4 turns. And any new units will get the same treatment.

If this is how it is then so be it. But I won't be playing German under these conditions. So I guess I will be seeking some German players to chew up.

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Post #: 68
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 2:47:55 AM   
Michael T


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Well to be clear I don't have a problem with the morale gains under refit prior to 1.07.07. And I have never seen a unit gain 4 or 5 pts of morale in 1 turn simply due to refit. It always seems to be around 2 pts per turn. But that's besides the point. My beef is what is occurring post 1.07.07

I concur with your assessment that front area troops are receiving very little extra morale boost from this new rule. But units in the rear, attached to Armies under Stavka are getting around 3 pts per turn on top of whatever they may get from from refit.

So a unit that starts the game (or is a reinforcment) at ~35 morale will be at ~50 in 2 to 3 turns if the player puts the unit in refit under the Stavka Armies. Whereas previously this would have taken 7 to 8 turns. It seems quite obvious to me this is a big problem game balance wise, any Soviet player worth his salt will soon close down Barbarossa by August with a multitude of ~50 morale units. Simple as that. And I would challenge anyone who thinks they can prove otherwise. Under these conditions, if left unchanged, 41 is no longer a contest and hence the entire CG41 is no longer a contest. Merely an exercise in dismantling the Axis from mid to late Sept 41 on.


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Post #: 69
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 3:36:11 AM   
Michael T


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More tests.

Units attached to Armies/Corps under Stavka within 10 hexes of the front gain no more than any other units on average.

So the problem appears only to be for units attached to Stavka via Army/Corp or directly attached to Stavka that are beyond 10 hexes of the front.

These units are gaining 2 to 3 morale per turn while not in refit. If in refit they get ~5 pts per turn. These are not outliers, they are avg results.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 5/8/2013 3:41:27 AM >


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Post #: 70
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 5:10:37 AM   
Michael T


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Ok I have convinced myself that there is no further problem. Sorry for the alarmist comments.

I did more tests and conclude that the units are going up in the extra morale due to this rule:

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

I did not realize this rule was so effective, I had always assumed that the benefit that I was seeing in morale gain was from units being in refit.

I appologize Joel, the *new* morale issue is indeed fixed. What I am seeing now has always existed, I was mistaken in attributing it to the *new* rule.

Thanks for the fix. I can begin my new game with Kamil as German.



< Message edited by Michael T -- 5/8/2013 5:11:56 AM >


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Post #: 71
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 7:49:40 PM   
Joel Billings


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Glad to hear there isn't something new out there. It is clear from your tests that putting low morale units in the rear and giving them a few weeks to a month to train up is a key strategy.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 72
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 9:24:31 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well to be clear I don't have a problem with the morale gains under refit prior to 1.07.07. And I have never seen a unit gain 4 or 5 pts of morale in 1 turn simply due to refit. It always seems to be around 2 pts per turn. But that's besides the point. My beef is what is occurring post 1.07.07



The National Morale issue that I had avery very long thread and loads of turn by turn data (Nov 2011)was that if GHC NM was 75, German and Finnish units only gained 1 point of morale above 60 at a 2% chance.

Units would gain several points per turn to 50 then from 50 to 60 one point per turn like 33% of the time.

SHC could have cared less, GHC and Finnish units simply were usless the rest of the war. You simply could not pull back units to germany and gain a pt over 60.

This is IF working right ( running a test tonight) a huge help to Germany and Finland.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 73
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/8/2013 10:04:09 PM   
Michael T


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Well it works from what I have seen. There is a Pz XX, 17th or 18th I think that starts at 75 morale. After 3 turns it was at 83 morale by just sitting around on the front line.

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Post #: 74
my first test - 5/8/2013 10:08:19 PM   
Pelton

 

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Pulled 3 Finnish units off line. All units under a Corp HQ , 10+ hexes from front, refit on and on a railhead.,

NM-80
starting morale:------- 5 turns later ending morale
73--------------------------------------73
73---------------------------------------73
73---------------------------------------73

15 turns = 0.00 ptsof morale per turn.

Same as before patch, Finnish units never gain morale sitting. I need to run some tests with units with morale under 70, but before patch they never gained morale sitting.

Gain per turn 0 Finland broken still.

GHC 1942 refit on ect ect ect
No-HQ
60--60--60--60--60--60=0
57--58--59--59--60--60=3
53--53--54--54--54--61=8
60--66--66--66--66--66=6
Total gain= 17 or .85 per turn.
Units under OKH
52--52--53--54--54--54=2
52--53--53--53--53--53=1
60--60--60--63--68--68=8
57--58--59--59--59--60=3
Total gain= 14 or .7 per turn

40 turns = .775 pt of morale per turn.

14 gains in 40 tries or 35% chance at a 1 pt gain.

Over 60 16 trys and 3 gains or 19%

Before patch gains from 50 to 60 were about 25% chance and now they are 35%

Over 60 gains, before patch 2% chance of a 1 pt gain and after 19%. The gains were 3,5 and 6.

I am happy the gains are better, but hardly worth pulling back units off line 10+ hexes to gain .775 pts of morale per turn.

Basicly GHC NM is still 60 for the war. Its 100% not worth the effort of pulling divisions off the front lines.

This new NM ruleset does help units that get pocketed and come back and thats not in all cases. gains of 0,1,2,3,3 wth?

I have to agree with MT this "fix" helped SHC and did very very little to address the issue of GHC NM. Its 60 as it was before patch.

NM for GHC is still clearly broken, hopefully some other peeps will run some tests.

Prove me wrong P


I will run another test based in 1941 and see what happens.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/8/2013 10:41:48 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 75
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 12:01:39 AM   
Pelton

 

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t-1 all OKH




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/9/2013 12:02:01 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 76
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 12:02:24 AM   
Pelton

 

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T10




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 77
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 12:03:48 AM   
Pelton

 

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Interesting data to say the least.

Packing for a 4 day trip.

Working on Finnish test.

GHC morale gains are very random to say the least.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 78
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 1:03:38 AM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
I see there are six German Panzer/Motorized divisions that start below NM so that's a small bonus to the Germans as they will come up to NM (since they're getting a die(8), they could come up quickly if they make the roll, I think come July 41 the Soviets are only getting a die(4) for most of their units). The Finns should come up to 80 as well over time. Yes, there will be a slight advantage gained by the Soviets in 41 with this fix, but the Germans should see an improvement in 42 and beyond as they can now recover some of their lost morale. We'll have to see how it goes. I am curious what German morale usually looks like after the first winter as that would give us an idea if this fix will have a meaningful positive impact on the German army.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 79
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 1:11:49 AM   
Pelton

 

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Div---T1----T10

44----50----55
57----50----58
75----51----54
297---53----66
9-----54----64
262---54---74
299---57---65
62----59----75
111---60----60
298---60---63
168---60---70
71---63----75
24----64---74

13 units so 130 total turns and a gain in morale of 110 points or .85 pts per turn not off much from my smaller test.

or and average gain of 8 1/2 pts in 10 turns wth?


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 80
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 1:14:29 AM   
rmonical

 

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For the German units recovering morale, it is impossible to distinguish between these two cases. The second case did have an occasional morale increase.
quote:


- The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than
the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70
for a non-elite unit).
- The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale
than a gain for this situation is possible.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 81
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 1:28:16 AM   
Pelton

 

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SHHHH, again more help for SHC and none for GHC/Finland.

The core issue has been GHC and not SHC.

Not sure how to hell to fix it, but it still broken in my option.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 82
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 1:35:52 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

For the German units recovering morale, it is impossible to distinguish between these two cases. The second case did have an occasional morale increase.
quote:


- The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than
the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70
for a non-elite unit).
- The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale
than a gain for this situation is possible.


Its happening so so little is it not functional at all and a waste of time.

Very very clearly not working.

The 10% of national morale thing is 5% chance if that.

35% chance of gaining a pt from 50 to 60.
20% chance above 60 morale

Same as small test.

The gains are less then 1/3 of what SHC is gaining per turn.

Its window dressing and simply not functional for GHC.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 83
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 4:19:28 PM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
The Die(nm/10) is a straight 15% chance for any unit below NM. The code is very simple. Since German NM is higher, the net gain will be higher for the Germans than for the Soviets for units that are eligible for this 15% chance.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 84
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 4:21:16 PM   
morvael


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But Soviets will have more units eligible, so the average gain will be higher for them.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 85
RE: my first test - 5/9/2013 4:22:17 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 20468
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
Yes, that is true.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 86
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/9/2013 6:04:56 PM   
Farfarer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Ok I have convinced myself that there is no further problem. Sorry for the alarmist comments.

I did more tests and conclude that the units are going up in the extra morale due to this rule:

The unit's morale is below 50, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.

I did not realize this rule was so effective, I had always assumed that the benefit that I was seeing in morale gain was from units being in refit.

I appologize Joel, the *new* morale issue is indeed fixed. What I am seeing now has always existed, I was mistaken in attributing it to the *new* rule.

Thanks for the fix. I can begin my new game with Kamil as German.




Just because it is now "noticed", how does this solve the problem of Sov morale getting up to 50 in a few turns? Just stay 10 hexes away, quite easy in Plan Runaway and Dig.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 87
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/9/2013 6:57:28 PM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
I assume many players were already keeping units in the rear. This was clearly documented in the rules and was always a good strategy.

Now for those of you that think there should be limits on the Soviet runaway, I invite them to use the new Sudden Death scenario rules and try to develop some kind of penalty to the Soviet side based on the loss of certain cities before a certain date. For those that don't like the Lvov pocket, combine it with a rule that prevents the Germans from forming the Lvov pocket on turn 1 (and then make major penalties for giving up those cities too fast). These are easily tracked house rules that could be developed and tested by the community.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Farfarer)
Post #: 88
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/9/2013 7:35:21 PM   
Farfarer

 

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From Michael T "So a unit that starts the game (or is a reinforcment) at ~35 morale will be at ~50 in 2 to 3 turns if the player puts the unit in refit under the Stavka Armies. Whereas previously this would have taken 7 to 8 turns. It seems quite obvious to me this is a big problem game balance wise, any Soviet player worth his salt will soon close down Barbarossa by August with a multitude of ~50 morale units. Simple as that. And I would challenge anyone who thinks they can prove otherwise. Under these conditions, if left unchanged, 41 is no longer a contest and hence the entire CG41 is no longer a contest. Merely an exercise in dismantling the Axis from mid to late Sept 41 on. "

With the latest series of beta releases, people start checking morale gains, wrongly attribute the reason, then acknowledge WAD, so the phenomenon of 35 to 50 in a few turns ceases to be an issue? I thought MT poking fun that he would be happy to play a German opponent "and shut down Barbarossa by August". What has changed? Was the ability to a morale 50 SHC there all along and we never realized it? Now that it is more widely known, is Michael correct?




(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 89
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/9/2013 8:24:01 PM   
Joel Billings


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Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
I can't speak to exactly how quickly a unit would go to 50 morale in the old system, but can say for a fact that the only change is that there is now a 15% chance that a unit that is below it's national morale will go up die(nm/10). All other rules from the past are the same, so the ability of a unit to go up when in refit in the rear has been increased by an average of a little less than 1/2 point per turn than what it used to be. Michael's test simply show that the chance has always been high to go up when in refit and more than 10 hexes from the enemy. This should have always been a big part of the Soviet player's strategy (keeping units in refit in the rear to train up).

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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(in reply to Farfarer)
Post #: 90
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