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New morale rule is Fixed

 
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New morale rule is Fixed - 5/1/2013 12:10:26 AM   
Michael T


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Did a simple test on this new morale rule. I put 5 Sov ID on T1 in to Refit mode. All 10 plus hexes from the front. Look at the results on T3.

16th ID 32 to 36
199th ID 32 to 39
183rd ID 33 to 44
18th ID 33 to 43
132nd ID 34 to 46

Yes no typo the 132nd went from 34 to 46 in two turns. Utterly ridiculous.

How to screw up a game with one flick of a switch.

Extrapolate this across the whole Red Army and blind Freddy can see how the Germans are screwed in 41 now.

@ 2by3, Please fix.


< Message edited by Michael T -- 5/8/2013 5:12:58 AM >


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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 12:29:07 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Did a simple test on this new morale rule. I put 5 Sov ID on T1 in to Refit mode. All 10 plus hexes from the front. Look at the results on T3.

16th ID 32 to 36
199th ID 32 to 39
183rd ID 33 to 44
18th ID 33 to 43
132nd ID 34 to 46

Yes no typo the 132nd went from 34 to 46 in two turns. Utterly ridiculous.

How to screw up a game with one flick of a switch.

Extrapolate this across the whole Red Army and blind Freddy can see how the Germans are screwed in 41 now.

@ 2by3, Please fix.



Yes the quick games are over and blind Freddie saw this coming over a yr ago when 1.06.13+ came out. Quick wins are a thing of the past. Your the only one getting them and thats coming to and end in current game I have a feeling.

GHC players have to think long term and not short. Its more then doable as I and a few others have shown. Its not flashy for sure but works.

2/3 of the game the GHC is on defensive.

The ammo bug was a huge help to GHC, NM is a huge help also same for conversion WAD or more like lack of WAD hehehe.

SHC simply has to do as you do, run in south, fight 70 to 80 miles east of landbridge in center, leave 35 arm pts west of rivers, rail a bunch of units from south to north of Tula.

GHC can only take what it is given.

There are ways to get draws in about every single game. Its a very long road and is a grind, but I find much more satisifing then a flash in the pan win.

The NM is WAD for the first time after release and I am very happy with it over the long run. Yes it sucks for the first 17 turns, but over the other 195 turns its a plus for GHC.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 1:07:42 AM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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quote:



The NM is WAD for the first time after release and I am very happy with it over the long run. Yes it sucks for the first 17 turns, but over the other 195 turns its a plus for GHC.


Maybe, but only if Germany doesn't hit a brick wall by T10 or so. Since this is fixed maybe a readjustment of NM caps for Soviets? A cap of 40 until Blizzard maybe? Don't know as I've never played Soviets but if Germany can only get what it is given in 41 then this adjustment might make draws less likely.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 3
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 1:08:10 AM   
Michael T


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Its not about a quick win Pelton. Its simply about remaining competive for all Axis players. And as one who very much likes playing the Soviet side as well I want a contest. In games with roughly evenly matched players the Axis will really struggle to acheive any meaningful hits on the Reds. As it stands I would be very confident of crushing the life out of any Axis player by the end of summer and deliver the coup de gras during the blizzard. This rule has shifted the balance way too much in favour of Russia in the summer of 41. Even if you tone down the blizzard it won't matter, the damage will be done in respect to a lack of casualties inflicted and territory gained.

The only way I can see that players can do anything to redress the balance is to increase Axis supply by 5% and reduce Soviet morale by 5% before the game starts. Axis players are going to have to negoiate some advantanges in the setup to have any fighting chance.

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Post #: 4
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 1:12:34 AM   
Michael T


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And honestly Pelton, do you really want to play out a game over 211 turns and hundreds hours knowing all you can do is acheive a draw? Thats sounds downright boring.

I wouldn't bother.

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Post #: 5
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 1:35:24 AM   
Michael T


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I think its safe to say that this single change in the morale rules is THE biggest game changer since release. You can throw in the blizzard adjustment, HQBU nerf, Mule nerf, Factory production changes etc etc. This kills Barbarossa by late July early August. Then its a slow death for the rest of the summer and lights out during the blizzard. Forget 42, you will be facing a Red Army not disimilar to the one I had against Pelton in Mar/April 42.

I wonder what would have transpired if this rule was operating as designed on release. Actually, it surely would have been nerfed during play testing.


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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 1:48:58 AM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think its safe to say that this single change in the morale rules is THE biggest game changer since release. You can throw in the blizzard adjustment, HQBU nerf, Mule nerf, Factory production changes etc etc. This kills Barbarossa by late July early August. Then its a slow death for the rest of the summer and lights out during the blizzard. Forget 42, you will be facing a Red Army not disimilar to the one I had against Pelton in Mar/April 42.

I wonder what would have transpired if this rule was operating as designed on release. Actually, it surely would have been nerfed during play testing.



I think if Russian NM is adjusted it won't be so bad. In the manual is says that Red Army NM has been raised over the patches so when you combine the two it probably is devastating. If you keep a low cap in 41 it would probably make a good balance.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 2:00:43 AM   
Michael T


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I agree that would be a fix.

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Post #: 8
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 2:39:26 AM   
Ketza


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I did a test as well.

I did first 3 turns no combat and picked the 10 lowest morale divisions. No refit. Scattered all over.

All infantry divisions each column is a turn with the new morale:

86xx 32 32 32
2xx 33 34 37
133xx 33 40 43
107xx 33 35 41
123xx 33 33 33
64xx 33 35 40
188xx 33 33 33
48xx 33 35 38
162xx 34 37 40
120xx 34 36 42

5 divisions went from low 30s to 40+ with no refit or combat.

Wow!

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Post #: 9
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 2:47:24 AM   
Michael T


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Its nuts Ketza and worse still it makes the runaway even more of a lucrative strategy than it is now. I am just flabbergasted that 2by3 could just willy nilly apply this rule without some serious concerns about all the work they have done in relation to balance in summer 41. I am incredulous about this.

I would advise anyone about to start a new game to revert to the patch prior to the one where this rule was implemented.

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Post #: 10
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 2:50:13 AM   
Ketza


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I just finished a turn one as Axis earlier today before I caught up on the forums. I may do an AAR just to report the findings. Based on these changes I am thinking its gonna be a harder slog then ever

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 2:54:57 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:


v1.05.18 - September 6, 2011
Soviet National Morale has been changed to 50 (from 40) in June 1941. One point is subtracted each month after this in 1941 (so it is 44 in Dec 41). In 1942 it is set to 40, with one point being added each month starting in September 1942 (so 44 in Dec 42). This continues in 1943 and 1944 until the Soviet National Morale reaches its maximum of 60 in April 1944.


I mentioned this before. I suspect the lack of the NM rule led to this change.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 5/1/2013 2:55:44 AM >

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 2:55:07 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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I think Soviet morale shouldn't go up by more than 1 per turn, and that should be maybe 1/2 the time or 2 times in 3 at most.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 3:06:58 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I did a test as well.

I did first 3 turns no combat and picked the 10 lowest morale divisions. No refit. Scattered all over.

All infantry divisions each column is a turn with the new morale:

86xx 32 32 32
2xx 33 34 37
133xx 33 40 43
107xx 33 35 41
123xx 33 33 33
64xx 33 35 40
188xx 33 33 33
48xx 33 35 38
162xx 34 37 40
120xx 34 36 42

5 divisions went from low 30s to 40+ with no refit or combat.

Wow!

Not a hardcore WitE veteran per se, actually running 'just' a Barbarossa '41 short scenario vs. Kamerad Roger.
Did a quick test myself regarding this issue about moral. Well, three crappy Div of 49th Rfl Cps, Kharkov MD gained 5-6 morale points on refit in one turn.
Haven't checked to manual really about what affect 50+ Sov units can have when the Panzers slice through their lines and bottle'm up. Thoughts, references anybody? I am aware that it must have an impact within a campaign game, but... you guys tell the Oberst, aye?

Klink, Oberst


< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 5/1/2013 3:10:50 AM >


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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 3:43:40 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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If making the rule work causes a balance problem, then the rule should be changed - the fact that it might cause problems isn't an excuse to leave a bug unfixed. Now that the rule is working as intended, then the devs can look at whether or not it needs to be worked on further.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 4:15:47 AM   
Flaviusx


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Shrug. Just cap Soviet NM to 45 for all 41 and call it a day. What's making this a bit inflated is that Sov morale starts at 50 and declines gradually from there. So those July and August rifle divisions will be pretty tough customers.

45 morale rifle divisions are very ordinary. 2 CV or so. You won't see them hit 3 CV until they get up to almost 50 morale.

The other thing that's exaggerating strength here to some extent is probably the 41a rifle division TOE which goes away quickly enough and is never again that high (in manpower terms, anyways.) By late summer they've switched over to the craptastic 41b toe, arguably the worst of the war.

Some minor tuning is needed is all.



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Post #: 16
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 4:42:33 AM   
Michael T


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The tuning neccesary may be minor indeed. But the effect of this unmodified rule is enormous. I shouldn't need to explain that 40-45 morale units are very prone to rout, whereas circa 50 morale units and above simply don't.

So very quickly the early war period, where we should see great swaths of broken Soviet units becomes a period where breaking a Soviet unit calls for great celebrations, thats is if you can move them at all.


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Post #: 17
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 5:00:25 AM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I did a test as well.

I did first 3 turns no combat and picked the 10 lowest morale divisions. No refit. Scattered all over.

All infantry divisions each column is a turn with the new morale:

86xx 32 32 32
2xx 33 34 37
133xx 33 40 43
107xx 33 35 41
123xx 33 33 33
64xx 33 35 40
188xx 33 33 33
48xx 33 35 38
162xx 34 37 40
120xx 34 36 42

5 divisions went from low 30s to 40+ with no refit or combat.

Wow!



This implies an increase of 2.4 morale per turn per unit. Do you have a test before the change to see how much similar units would go up? The test I ran on 1942 Germans showed that about 15% of the German units below NM were getting a bump. Given an increase of less than 4 on average when an increase happened, this implied that over all German units eligible you'd see just over a 1/2 morale point increase per turn per unit. Clearly the Soviets in this example are getting a higher percentage of the units getting the bump, unless they're getting a lot of the bump from being below 50 morale or from being below 75 morale and in good supply/support. The sad thing is that this kind of increase is probably what Gary had originally been intending years ago, with units taking 1-2 months (on average)to come up to their (low) national morale. It would help to have some before and after comparisons if you've got them.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 5:20:33 AM   
Ketza


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I do not have any evidence from before the patch. All I can attest to is I used to very carefully husband the higher morale divisions and shuttle them to the "must defend" areas and then funnel replacements to them. I also "farmed" victories as much as possible with attacks relying on the 1-1/2-1 rule to gain morale. Once a unit gained 4 or 5 morale it was shuttled away from the front to the reserve for Blizzard and/or defend critical areas. I had never really noticed any signifigant jump in morale other then utilizing combat victories. If it did happen is was not noticeable to me.

The WOW factor with this new rule change is the morale increase takes place without positive combat results and no cumbersome unit management. This on the surface seems very unbalancing to me.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 5:33:02 AM   
Michael T


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It seems to me the previously non implemented rule is meant to be used with the original low Soviet NM (40) I think. This *new* rule coupled with morale 50 NM is broken.

I am going to uninstall and run a comparison for you Joel from before and after. Stay tuned.

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Post #: 20
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 6:21:49 AM   
Michael T


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I ran the tests on 10 ID. Don't have time right now to post the data but will do so later. I had one ID go from 37 to 51 in 2 turns with the new rule. Without new rule 37 to 41 in 2 turns.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 7:40:59 AM   
Michael T


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Ok tested 10 ID. All in refit more than 10 hexes from the front with 1.07.03

Unit - Start morale T1/ T3 morale

178 - 32/37
18 - 37/42
144 - 40/44
166 - 37/41
187 - 33/37
229 - 39/44
160 - 37/41
170 - 33/37
186 - 32/36
98 - 35/39

So mostly they went up by 4 points. Avg 2 per turn.

Now same units at T1 with same morale but patched up to 1.07.06 (new morale rule)

178 - 32/41
18 - 37/51
144 - 40/49
166 - 37/50
187 - 33/41
229 - 39/47
160 - 37/45
170 - 33/43
186 - 32/43
98 - 35/47

That's about another 3.3 pts per turn on top of the 2 pts per turn. So ~5.3 pts per turn in total.

It's just too much Joel.

I have the save files if you want them.

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Post #: 22
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 7:48:48 AM   
morvael


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Duble post.

< Message edited by morvael -- 5/1/2013 8:04:05 AM >

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 8:04:09 AM   
morvael


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I like the change. With all the latest fixes Axis should last till '45 not early '44. Everything that puts away the sudden death Axis victory is also ok (hate spend 100s of hours and miss the fun part). Also, higher Sov morale in '41 may result in more forward fighting and that is great. I miss the chance to do it. Of course I am not against 1-5 point adjustment to NM in 41-42, if that will help balance a bit (I want the Germans stopped at the gates of Moscow, not Smolensk or Minsk).

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 8:05:46 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I like the change. With all the latest fixes Axis should last till '45 not early '44. Everything that puts away the sudden death Axis victory is also ok (hate spend 100s of hours and miss the fun part). Also, higher Sov morale in '41 may result in more forward fighting and that is great. I miss the chance to do it. Of course I am not against 1-5 point adjustment to NM in 41-42, if that will help balance a bit (I want the Germans stopped at the gates of Moscow, not Smolensk or Minsk).


Sounds right to me. If the balance encourages a Soviet player to fight and to launch counterattacks in the Summer-Autumn that is for the good. If it allows the Germans to turn the period 43-45 into a long contested retreat without hitting a cliff somewhere in early 44 that also sounds good.

From my (limited) experience there are 3 main systems at work in 1941. An overpowered German turn 1 (mainly due to the accurate OOB and no Soviet reaction), an overpowered Soviet winter offensive (mainly as the Soviets often have kept more of an army than they had historically) and the tendency for Soviet players to give up too much, too easily in the July-September period. Its the balance between them that matters.

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RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 8:25:19 AM   
SigUp

 

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I agree with Flavius. Cap the NM at 45 and it should be about right. 50 right now is just too high. As for the forward fighting component, I just don't know. If units gain such spectacular numbers in such short time, it would actually encourage the Soviet to throw away a couple of turns just to refit a giant number of units and then send in a brick wall to stop the Germans. Coupled with the blizzard rules it could be potentially disastrous.

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Post #: 26
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 10:19:10 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Did a simple test on this new morale rule. I put 5 Sov ID on T1 in to Refit mode. All 10 plus hexes from the front. Look at the results on T3.

16th ID 32 to 36
199th ID 32 to 39
183rd ID 33 to 44
18th ID 33 to 43
132nd ID 34 to 46

Yes no typo the 132nd went from 34 to 46 in two turns. Utterly ridiculous.

How to screw up a game with one flick of a switch.

Extrapolate this across the whole Red Army and blind Freddy can see how the Germans are screwed in 41 now.

@ 2by3, Please fix.


Did some look backs (AI vs AI) and I have to agree SHC NM should be tweaked back to 45 in 1941.

and Sigup is right standard MO for SHC is run the first 3 to 5 turns depending on area. No one will fight forward if they don't have to.

2by3 has done a good job getting game ( P v P ) right from June 41 to June 43 with the conversion WAD about to be fixed game would be balanced from June 41 to June 45, but the 1941 SHC NM levels needs to be tweaked back to 45 as Flaviusx has pointed out or the game is back to where it was the day it was released as far as balance goes..

< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/1/2013 10:20:44 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 27
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 11:24:58 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Since the tweak to Soviet NM from 45 to 50 occurred because the Soviets were too weak with the bug in place, then setting it back to the original would seem a no brainer. The big change (overall) of the bug fix is to make units recover morale faster than when it was not working correctly. So 'reborn' units will be ready to go to the front in 3 or 4 turns rather than the 8 or so turns that are currently. Oh, and the Axis units actually can hit their NM now too.

Switching the Soviet NM back to a maximum of 45 in 41 will still allow the Soviets to bring the reinforcing and reforming units to the front faster and keep the Soviets from not having sufficient units in the front line to HAVE a front line. When the units reform faster, then the Soviets can afford (to a certain extent) to throw some units away in Summer of 41 to buy time and cause additional Axis casualties. Read this as the Soviets will be able to fight forward with less down side.

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Post #: 28
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 11:40:48 AM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Shrug. Just cap Soviet NM to 45 for all 41 and call it a day. What's making this a bit inflated is that Sov morale starts at 50 and declines gradually from there. So those July and August rifle divisions will be pretty tough customers.


I agree that this would probably balance better. The only exception should be for any Guard units that are formed prior to Jan 42.
As it stands now the Axis player faced with 8 or so turns of blizzard tends to do what the soviet player does for the first 17 and that is keep out of the way and fall back until the weather changes.
Manstein63

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Post #: 29
RE: New morale rule has screwed 41. - 5/1/2013 1:00:35 PM   
Flaviusx


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There shouldn't be many guards early on. It takes a while to farm wins, and they only start showing up in limited numbers in the autumn. The real large scale farming of guards generally has to wait until the blizzard.

A half dozen or even a dozen guards rifle divisions in September isn't going to wreck game balance. I don't think I've ever managed to do more than that, even against the AI. I only hit guards cap during the actual blizzard counteroffensive.

Those guards deflate considerably in 1942, too. Once NM is set to 40, the guards bonus merely puts them back around 50 moral assuming a few wins under their belt. If they take some knocks, they'll drift back down to 45 range, which is not very impressive.

Michael is right to note that 50 is a kind of inflection point for morale so far as the Soviets go. 40 I think is another inflection point: the one where units are virtually non combat effective and can be considered useless 1 point ants and have no business anywhere near the front line except as sacrificial units.

As such we are working within a relatively narrow range here.

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