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'43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments.

 
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'43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/27/2013 8:34:04 PM   
rmonical

 

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I've been playing around with the '43-45 campaign scenario to see if there is a scenario based fix to the the multiple upgrade issues in the current engine. I am particularly interested because I am getting ready to start a campaign game as Soviet and do not want to unduly handicap the Axis player by design.

So I tried having the '39 and '43 types coexist and assign a small number to the old type. However the engine pulled the old type into the pool far faster than it would build the new type. The swap logic avoids that problem if it were not so difficult to get the swap logic to fire. I assume the upgrade logic works in the same way. But at least the TOE is not depleted compared to my approach of looking for both types to coexist.

So that leaves the problem of swapping out the 75 MM AT guns for the 37 MM guns. Having all three AT gun types in the TOE 340 worked OK. The 37 MM guns were pulled back rapidly, but production of 75 MM guns ramped up nicely and they were quickly distributed across all of the target units. I did see one case where the 37 MM guns were in both the 37 MM and 75 MM slots of the TOE. But that was clearly an odd case because the 75 MM guns ended up widely distributed if in small numbers. So in the case of AT guns, it appears that adding the third AT gun slot to the TOE works. (As it does for mortars). The problem with that approach is the engine will want to build them as fast as it can. Probably not a problem for the Axis player, but it does represent a blip in the production rate.

In the absence of adding the third AT gun slot to the '43 division (meaning that the swap logic will still apply), I would be strongly tempted to try adding two 75 MM AT guns to the '42 TOE. I do not have an easy way to test this but it seems reasonable. That way when the '43 TOE kicks in, the 75 MM guns are already widely distributed. The same downside exists - the engine will rapidly pull the 37 MM guns back and blip production to get the 75 MM guns out. Having large caliber guns on production in WITW/WITE2 addresses this problem.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/27/2013 8:35:55 PM >
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/27/2013 8:46:29 PM   
rmonical

 

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For the coexistence test, I changed all type 340 units to have '39 rifle squads and 37 MM AT guns. I then changed the TOE to make the old slots the old style units with a small count. Then I added the new style units at the bottom.

As you can see, the AI pulled most of the old style rifle squads out of the 7th ID before allocating it any new style squads. In addition, it put a couple of 37 MM guns in the 75 MM gun slot. So not a very successful test.






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< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/27/2013 8:48:16 PM >

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/27/2013 8:54:31 PM   
rmonical

 

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Finally, I think there is an armaments issue in '43 - probably related to the way the upgrade is managed with old style units "locking up" a lot of armaments points. I counted the armaments points required to get from 1/1/43 to the element counts shown on 7/5/43. The numbers are in the table. What this means is that 50% of German armaments production is required to achieve the 7/5/43 OB shown. There are of course, a number of caveats:

On the plus side.
The 75 MM can can start building 11/42 so there are a few more armaments available.
There may be armaments in the pool at the end of 42.

On the minus side, no losses are counted.







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< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/27/2013 8:57:48 PM >

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 2:48:37 AM   
Pelton

 

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Are there GHC squad up-grades in 44?

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 3:10:40 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

Are there GHC squad up-grades in 44?



11/44. The '45 division has both squad types, so not so many squads to be converted.

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 3:50:45 AM   
rmonical

 

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This is the work around I plan to offer the German player in my about to start game as Soviet.
It adds 171000 armaments points which I think is fair considering my analysis.
It adds 122,000 manpower which may be less appropriate but from the recent AAR may add an element of balance.





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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 11:18:43 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

This is the work around I plan to offer the German player in my about to start game as Soviet.
It adds 171000 armaments points which I think is fair considering my analysis.
It adds 122,000 manpower which may be less appropriate but from the recent AAR may add an element of balance.






Still no work arounds for the 11/42+ games, dmaged beyond repair basicly?

Also seems like a very small amount to be a "fix" for there being no paths to up-grade, you throw in combat and the GHC would still be converting to slowly and end up with 2 cv infantry divisions that should be 7 to 8 cv on average.

The switch might happen quicker in this case, but the drop would be there causing allot of damage so you still have a lack of things and conversion would not happen at all.

Not player vs player skills but player+bug vs player game, more balanced but still not a true reflextion of the players.

Just my 2 cents.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/28/2013 11:23:38 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to rmonical)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 5:28:01 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

Still no work arounds for the 11/42+ games, dmaged beyond repair basicly?


I think 11/42 is not irretrievable once the rifle squad fix for in-flight games comes out. My concern is the 75 MM AT gun deployment since I think 2x3 will not embrace my idea of adding a third AT gun slot. I do not see how they can make that work well with the swap logic. It is T-48 in my game as Axis and I have 75 MM AT guns in two divisions. So I think the trick is to rune those divisions up to =99% TOE, to get as many guns as possible, then set it to 50% and commit them to action to try to seed the active pool with more guns. Then but regiments in a position to swap and try to get as many divisions seeded with the 75 MM guns as possible.

This is more management than players should be required to do.


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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 5:40:51 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

Also seems like a very small amount to be a "fix" for there being no paths to up-grade, you throw in combat and the GHC would still be converting to slowly and end up with 2 cv infantry


Pre-fix, the key issue is to "seed" the swap pool with enough squads so the swap process can get engaged. One there is a critical mass of new style squads in the game, the upgrades should proceed. I think players will still have to pay a little attention to the process until WITE2 comes out. The things they should do are:
- break down divisions and pull 1 un-upgraded regiment back, place in refit, get it swapped, then recombine the division to continue the upgrade process. Now what may happen is there will still be a blip down in strength if the engine pulls the old style squads out faster than it build new style squads. I'm not sure how the fix will address this. I would like to see it pull old style squads out at the same rate it introduces new style squads.
- do not put upgraded divisions in refit mode and keep their TOE relatively low. I assume the rifle (m-rifle pioneer) squad problem will be fixed to not use the swap process. However if the 75 MM AT gun upgrade still depends on the swap process, players will need to pay attention to this to get to 3000 guns by July.

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 5:53:25 PM   
Denniss

 

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One possible trick to increase the upgrade chance would be to use an upgrade from the 37mm ATG to a new 75mm gun in ~12/42. This new 75mm ATG has an end date of 11/41 (13 months earlier) to prevent production and an upgrade path to the standard 75mm gun. 12/42 start prevents early mass upgrades.

I use a similar workaround in my histfactmod to have the Tiger I fac change to already-in-production Tiger II and I have it at least once seen working in a unit, upgrading Tiger I to II, so I assume it should work for the 37mm ATG as well.
Multiple nations have problem to kick-out the useless 37mm guns despite having other guns in their TOE, if there's no .exe fix this could be a data workaround.

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 6:14:53 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

One possible trick to increase the upgrade chance would be to use an upgrade from the 37mm ATG to a new 75mm gun in ~12/42. This new 75mm ATG has an end date of 11/41 (13 months earlier) to prevent production and an upgrade path to the standard 75mm gun. 12/42 start prevents early mass upgrades.


I think the problem is still the pace of the upgrade. There are going to be some 5000 37 MM guns in late 41/early 42 which will all want to upgrade using the A upgrade logic. There were simply not that many 75 MM guns available so there has to be a throttling mechanism. Gun production is the appropriate mechanism, but we have to wait until WITE2 to get that. (Or do we?) Then we get the double armaments hit. The cost to upgrade to the intermediate gun (call it 75mm Pak 97/38) and then the cost to upgrade to the final version (75mm Pak 40).

I'm going to see if I can get 75 MM AT gun production in to the '42 scenario.

(in reply to Denniss)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 6:26:55 PM   
morvael


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Restoring upgrade paths has impressive effect.

No path:
REFIT REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
2192 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
39438 men are added to Germany's front line units
NORMAL REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
6911 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
5723 men are added to Germany's front line units


Path:
REFIT REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
1806 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
60721 men are added to Germany's front line units
NORMAL REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
6911 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
124439 men are added to Germany's front line units


The problem with that solution for me is that this is solving the problem by forcing the generic data (ground element upgrade paths) to have specific form, that the broken algorithm inside the game works better with. If the algorithm were to work properly, it should recognize the need to build new squads and refill units without upgrade paths. Rememeber this solution will not be universal, because we can't add upgrade paths in all other similar cases without affecting other items. This should be done by fixing the need/swap algorithms. Of course for now it will be sufficient, as it is most important to get German Rifle Squads on the line, as they are the army's backbone. Minor items like light AT guns and some AA and Art, we can live without that (for a while).

(in reply to rmonical)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 6:31:46 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

Still no work arounds for the 11/42+ games, dmaged beyond repair basicly?


I think 11/42 is not irretrievable once the rifle squad fix for in-flight games comes out.

This is more management than players should be required to do.




I disagree strongly as in the case of Disgruntled Veteran vs A-game. There is simply no way this "fix" will ever have a chance in hell of taking hold ( retreating 2 to 4 hexes a turn) and will never replace all the lost manpower and armaments he never should have lost in the first place.

Only a 2by3 time machine can fix that.

The damaged caused by the conversion bug can not be patched in, it can only get the process moving again.

How will turning the switch back on make up for the last 52 turns of 2 cv units when they should have been 7+ for the last 52 turns?

Whatever damage is done is done it can't be "fixed"

Its really only helpful to none damaged games (6/41 to 10/42) or very early in the process damaged games (11/42 to 3/43).

I do agree with this:

This is more management than players should be required to do.

I guess the question becomes is my game to far gone to get a result based on pvp and not p+ba v P.

Will I beat my chest and say I won because GHC CV disappeared after 6/43 not because of combat but because of a bad algorithm.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/28/2013 6:54:49 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to rmonical)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 7:07:41 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Restoring upgrade paths has impressive effect.

No path:
REFIT REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
2192 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
39438 men are added to Germany's front line units
NORMAL REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
6911 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
5723 men are added to Germany's front line units


Path:
REFIT REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
1806 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
60721 men are added to Germany's front line units
NORMAL REPLACEMENT SUB-SEGMENT
6911 men were returned to Germany's manpower pool
124439 men are added to Germany's front line units


The problem with that solution for me is that this is solving the problem by forcing the generic data (ground element upgrade paths) to have specific form, that the broken algorithm inside the game works better with. If the algorithm were to work properly, it should recognize the need to build new squads and refill units without upgrade paths. Rememeber this solution will not be universal, because we can't add upgrade paths in all other similar cases without affecting other items. This should be done by fixing the need/swap algorithms. Of course for now it will be sufficient, as it is most important to get German Rifle Squads on the line, as they are the army's backbone. Minor items like light AT guns and some AA and Art, we can live without that (for a while).


Nice great work.

One can only guess at where Disgruntled Veteran vs A-game games lines and OOB would be now if they had this in March 43 or for that matter many of the other past games.

Be great if Disgruntled Veteran and A-game would stop the current game and go back to March 43 and restart or if 2 guys would restart the game March 43 if they did not want to.

This would be the best test case to see how big the effect of this issue has been on past games.

Also would it be possible to do a ai vs ai with the March 43 file, one with the fix and one with out.

I would love to see the results.

You could also do a test to see if a "date" could be fixed to games worth saving by running

March 43 to March 44
June 43 to March 44
October 43 to March 44

Then as players with on going games we have a good handle on how screwed up a game might be.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/28/2013 7:17:51 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 14
RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 7:51:40 PM   
morvael


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I think it depends on the games, my game with cpt flam is in early June'43 but I don't think it's screwed because I am passive and not attacking much so he didn't lost any units or ground, and once his pool will be spent and the units will be refilled, a good fight can start again. In current version I think the problem starts as early as Jan'43, but isn't deadly until Jan'44 (unless you have heavy fighting).

We are fixing rifle squads, but there are many items like the Art/AA/AT guns that have problems as well with filling up, and that problem won't be gone unless we add upgrade paths (and it's not possible for all cases).

Unless the code will be redone to create need for new elements, swap out old elements and scrap infantry elements quickly the problem will return here or there (though not in as critical place as German Rifle Squads). The only other way to fix it, is either to simplify the ground element/TOE setup to have upgrade paths for everything, in line with TOE upgrades (at the same moment), or to create some "virtual" upgrade paths by duplicating some elements and/or TOEs (not good, may cause other problems). I'd go with fixing the code, should be simplest of the three.

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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 8:29:59 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

I'm going to see if I can get 75 MM AT gun production in to the '42 scenario.


Well, production does not replace the A logic but it augments it. IF production of A units comes out of armaments points, then production can be added with no real impact on the game other than it cannot be turned off so you only want enough production to kick start the conversion logic.

If factory production of A units takes supplies instead of armaments then armaments subsystem is impacted by this approach.

It is an easy solution at the scenario design level. Adding production of a reasonable number of rifle squads, 75 MM guns and motorized rifle squads will force elements into the active pool to enable the swap logic. Again, some attention by the players is required to make sure the elements are used for upgrades instead of attrition replacement.

(in reply to rmonical)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 8:45:31 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think it depends on the games, my game with cpt flam is in early June'43 but I don't think it's screwed because I am passive and not attacking much so he didn't lost any units or ground, and once his pool will be spent and the units will be refilled, a good fight can start again. In current version I think the problem starts as early as Jan'43, but isn't deadly until Jan'44 (unless you have heavy fighting).

We are fixing rifle squads, but there are many items like the Art/AA/AT guns that have problems as well with filling up, and that problem won't be gone unless we add upgrade paths (and it's not possible for all cases).

Unless the code will be redone to create need for new elements, swap out old elements and scrap infantry elements quickly the problem will return here or there (though not in as critical place as German Rifle Squads). The only other way to fix it, is either to simplify the ground element/TOE setup to have upgrade paths for everything, in line with TOE upgrades (at the same moment), or to create some "virtual" upgrade paths by duplicating some elements and/or TOEs (not good, may cause other problems). I'd go with fixing the code, should be simplest of the three.



PBeM's being the no brainer roll back to June 43 to be safe. April and May are mud and only 3 months should not be a killer.

Oct 43 + in my option is dead in most cases.

Jan 44 + I agree its dead.

Even June 43 to Oct 43 should get some kind of hot patch of men and arm pts to restore balance if fighting was hvy.

I guess in the end its up to the two poeple involvoed to deside for themselfs after June 43 if the game is server based.

The up-side is witw and wite2 will not see these issues. When are they coming out? Before X-mas would be great

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/29/2013 10:20:19 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 17
RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/28/2013 8:46:00 PM   
morvael


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Not always. There is for example Soviet 152mm Howitzer (1/38-7/41) that upgrades to 152mm Howitzer (11/43-9/45). In the gap between the first one and the second one, 122mm Howitzer (1/38-9/45) should be used. In my game it was proven that the Howitzer units starve rather than use the 122mm. But you can't make 152-122-152 upgrade path, as it will affect those units using the 122mm for the entire game (rifle divs). You would have to make a second 122mm with identical parameters to the first, but different dates/upgrade path. That would be bad, because after the second 152mm would enter production, the second 122mm would rot in the pool and would not go to units using the first one.

(in reply to rmonical)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/29/2013 12:13:58 AM   
Denniss

 

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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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Lots of the old 152mm guns should be freed from rifle div use in autumn 41 although they start to be scrapped. Workaround I tested: extend end date to 1/43, upgrade to a duplicat of this gun with 9999 build cost (will not be produced) and fnally upgrade to the 1943 gun. Thus you won't lose old guns to scrapping.
The 152mm running out that early cause a lot of problems in the 43 BT Art div. On refit they switched to the 76 or 122mm but this exceeds the 125% of component TOE thus several are sent back to pool, leaving the unit understrenght.

(in reply to morvael)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/30/2013 3:15:54 PM   
Denniss

 

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Another workaround suggestion for the poop-ATG (or knock-knock devices) AKA 37mm AT gun and similar, you could try a 42 testcampaign with locked generic data and set up these guns, ranging from 20 to below-40mm, as Light-AT (instead of AT). This may kick them out on TOE changes if this type had been removed from the OB.

(in reply to Denniss)
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RE: '43 AT Gun upgrade and armaments. - 4/30/2013 10:23:02 PM   
Denniss

 

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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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I tested the workaround from above, changing the german 37mm ATG into Light-AT in the 1943 campaign, added lots of manpower + armaments + every turn set 75% MaxTOE + Refit (unlocked units become available).
Result: 47 starting units with this gun, five turns later still 47 in standard 43 campaign (+ manpower/armaments) and ~1300 75mm ATG built, 41 units and ~1500 75mm ATG produced in the light-AT campaign.
No idea whether the usage of Light-AT might have side-effects or not.

Looking through all the TOE/OBs may point to another problem: although the major use of the 37mm ATG ends in late 42, it's still in use by several unit types until ~early 1944, is eligible for scrapping in early 43. 50mm ATG, scraps from 1/44 but in major TOE/OBs until 12/44 (Infantry divs).

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