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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements

 
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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:44:27 PM   
Denniss

 

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I assume Pavel checked the WitW files, there is an upgrade path from 94 to 96 (and also for the german rifle squads 81->82). Or he has an updated data set that's not yet released for WitE.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:54:11 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Or he has an updated data set that's not yet released for WitE.


Well, it is other way around. I have too old files. Apparently Jim removed the upgrade in order to slowdown the conversion. So there is no disconnects between code and data, as it really slows it down :)

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 11:21:15 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

So there is no disconnects between code and data, as it really slows it down :)


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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 11:51:30 PM   
rmonical

 

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So it sounds like this is not a problem for WITW as the slow upgrades can be addressed in scenario design. The WITE scenarios can be "fixed" by restoring the upgrade path.

The problem then goes back to all the armaments points "locked" in the pool by "upgrading" some 35,000 rifle squads of various flavors in 1943.

I really like the idea of both squad types coexisting and letting attrition manage the slow transition. As a practical matter, when the Panzerfausts first come, they will be distributed evenly across the divisions. Some squads get a Panzerfaust, others get the second SMG. None are at full strength. Almost no squads will ever be TOE. Almost exactly analogous to the way new AFVs models transition in the divisions.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 12:01:43 AM   
rmonical

 

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Now, for the campaign games that are "in flight" there is still the question on how to help them get through this. My suggestion was to work on upgrading one regiment per division and letting coexistence manage the problem. I still need to test if there are impacts on combat (only one squad type participates?).

To help them their squads converted it would be helpful to document exactly what factors are in
quote:

The rate defined by the amount of units/element/elements in the pool/ etc..

especially the "etc..." bit.

I know that with 40 MR squads sitting in the active pool and 18 regiments needing 27 to swap, not a single swap occurred. It looks like the active pool needs to get over 50 (or perhaps 2x) before a swap occurs.

Is there another approach they can use?

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/24/2013 12:02:35 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 12:14:10 AM   
Denniss

 

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Pavel, please re-do the tests you've done for this thread but use the current data files without upgrade path. Do you still see the expected rate of upgrades/swaps?
Will we see actual use of the internal export/upgrade function in WitE if also enabled for SOV ?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 1:02:09 AM   
rmonical

 

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Pelton was kind enough to send me game files. 125, 133, 135.

In all three game files, there are zero new style squads in the active pool. I see no reason why there would be a buildup of new style squads in the active pool under any reasonable circumstance. Players will have to make that happen by reducing the TOE of the units with the new style squads.

As of T-135 the engine has converted less than 20% of his rifle squads to '43 style squads. In fact, it has upgraded far fewer than 20%. Looking at the divisions with the new style squads, it appears that almost all of them arrived in 43. So, there appears to be no way to bootstrap enough new style squads into the active pool to allow for the swap.

New style squads for swap have to come from production

Obviously, knowing about the problem will allow players going in to '43 to have a singular focus getting new style squads into the active pool and thence into units one regiment at a time.

For the games that are into 44, both players need to collaborate to make this happen using the one regiment at a time upgrade approach.





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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 1:59:56 AM   
smokindave34


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical


Obviously, knowing about the problem will allow players going in to '43 to have a singular focus getting new style squads into the active pool and thence into units one regiment at a time.

For the games that are into 44, both players need to collaborate to make this happen using the one regiment at a time upgrade approach.






I have two games as axis both in late '43. How exactly should I manage getting the new style squads into the active pool?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 2:11:53 AM   
rmonical

 

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See the armaments thread-my most recent post. Do you know how to find which units have a particular squad type in them?

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/24/2013 2:12:28 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 2:30:45 AM   
smokindave34


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I'm assuming you talking about the rifle squads that start in January '43? Here is my active pool from turn 131 in my game versus Sillyflower. I'll try implementing your advice from the armaments thread - I'm stuggling to see the connection between the upgrades to the new '43 rifle squads and my large numbers of men in the manpower pool (300K+ and growing fast) - what am I missing?

This manpower pool problem has been bothering me for a while. I understand that I am supposed to be getting my butt kicked in late '43 and '44 as the axis but I'd prefer to be fighting with most of my men at the front and not on leave back in Berlin.




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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 2:34:49 AM   
smokindave34


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And here is my German manpower pool.




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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 2:41:47 AM   
Michael T


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It would be prudent if some higher ups from 2by3 could confirm that this 'feature' is WAD or not. If its not WAD as it appears (I want 2by3 to confirm whats going on) then it would appear to me that all these games in 44 are screwed. Perhaps the 43 games can be saved.

If there is indeed a problem and a patch is required will games that are at 41 to 42 stage be remedied or are all those screwed as well?

I really don't want to sink more time in to my game with Kamil if its going to be screwed by 43 (assuming we get that far). Or will we need to start again?

Some input from the higher ups is needed here.


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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 2:42:07 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

I'm stuggling to see the connection between the upgrades to the new '43 rifle squads and my large numbers of men in the manpower pool (300K+ and growing fast) - what am I missing?


Well, your armaments are being used somewhere. Now, the problem is that they are not being used to build rifle squads. To make up for the low TOE, I see them building tube fired weapons. See the image for an example. Because the rifle squads cannot convert, the engine tries to make up for it by taking the more expensive weapon types up to 100%.

So you apply my workaround to get the engine to build rifle squads.

Does this answer your question?





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< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/24/2013 2:47:09 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 3:16:08 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

It would be prudent if some higher ups from 2by3 could confirm that this 'feature' is WAD or not. If its not WAD as it appears (I want 2by3 to confirm whats going on) then it would appear to me that all these games in 44 are screwed. Perhaps the 43 games can be saved.

If there is indeed a problem and a patch is required will games that are at 41 to 42 stage be remedied or are all those screwed as well?

I really don't want to sink more time in to my game with Kamil if its going to be screwed by 43 (assuming we get that far). Or will we need to start again?

Some input from the higher ups is needed here.



Not that I know what I am talking about and as you know I am always wrong.

I will put in my 2 cents here with my bro MT.

Helpless basicly has comfirmed the issue alrdy and its clear as day thks to the 3 amigos. We could be wrong but I doubt it.

We both know the game very good as far as the big picture goes MT, not as good as Flaviusx but close.

Yes the 44 games are screwed and so are mid 43 games and possibly early 43. As we both know stuff snowballs very quickly. I can only guess at the 100,000's of arm pts (700k by DV) that have been wasted by Dec/June/March 43 this does not take into account all the lost battles/morale/equipment that never should have been lost in the first plase. morale gained by SHC which should never have been gained.

This starts Jan 1st 1943, wasting manpower/armaments ect ect ect. It starts slowly like a canser infecting the body ( units) so slowly the cancer eats more faster and faster until the game basicly collaspes.

from the first turn of 1943 the GHC is at a disadvantage losing men and equipment that he never should have lost in the first plase. So even by mid 43 the game is out of balance.

Yes mybee the game can be saved ( the fix is a mybee it may not work at all) but saved in what condition?

Are you going to jump up and down saying I beat so an so when the game is in late 43? mid 43 early 43?

Personally I am playing smokendave past mid 43 and hes seeing the effects alrdy which means the cancer is all thourgh the body our game is most likely screwed. If he wants to play on cool, but if win I will score it a draw. I want to defeat my enemys based on my skills and his and not some bug that completely screwed his army. I am not that vain.

I set out to find this dam bug a long time ago as you know and it has been found with the help of others. I clearly did not expect it to be like a cancer I expected it to be more of a hot patch like Wolf and Bear.

This looks to be a real mess unless 2by3 can come up with cure for cancer. Hopefully they can.

If they can't thats cool this is still by far the best Eastern Front game by far.

I have hunted down and killed the Great White Whale and like Captian Ahab I am looking for the next whale to kill.

I will need help guys to row the boat and set the sails.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/24/2013 3:32:55 AM >


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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 6:55:34 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Pavel, please re-do the tests you've done for this thread but use the current data files without upgrade path. Do you still see the expected rate of upgrades/swaps?


Dennis, elements without upgrade paths swapping out at the expected rate if conditions are met. I.e. it can be very slow. I'd suggest Jim to restore upgrade paths for the common infantry type ground elements. However it might have its own side effects.

quote:

Will we see actual use of the internal export/upgrade function in WitE if also enabled for SOV ?


Can you please explain what do you mean here?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 6:59:05 AM   
rmonical

 

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Is there any circumstance in which a unit with old style rifle squads will upgrade to new style squads in 1943? I ran a test in which I loaded up the pool with 10000 new style squads and did not see any upgrades in 6 turns. I also converted most of the infantry back to old style squads, so there are a lot of candidates for upgrade (swap) to new style squads.

Has something changed such that Jim's desire to slow down the migration from old to new style squads is actually a full stop in 1943 and glacial in 1944?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:17:34 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Is there any circumstance in which a unit with old style rifle squads will upgrade to new style squads in 1943? I ran a test in which I loaded up the pool with 10000 new style squads and did not see any upgrades in 6 turns. I also converted most of the infantry back to old style squads, so there are a lot of candidates for upgrade (swap) to new style squads.

Has something changed such that Jim's desire to slow down the migration from old to new style squads is actually a full stop in 1943 and glacial in 1944?



I'm haven't seen any element upgrade/swap problem in all the saves provided. Your save can be the first one.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:33:56 AM   
rmonical

 

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this is based on the 43 scenario

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:39:46 AM   
morvael


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Double post.

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/24/2013 7:42:20 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:41:11 AM   
morvael


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Bear in mind this may help with swap issue. But you wouldn't have those 10000 new squads built by the on demand system as it would not see the need and would spend the points on artillery.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:44:16 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

this is based on the 43 scenario



What exactly should I look at?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:47:08 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

What exactly should I look at?


You do not have to look at anything if you would just explain in tiny words what must be true for a swap to occur. I just figured out a swap does not occur if a unit is not if refit mode. This trial and error exploration of how a feature works is tiresome.

Once I put all of the old style units in refit mode I started to see swaps. Why did all units not swap as soon as they are eligible.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:52:26 AM   
Helpless


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I wanted to know if you played with some specific elements. I don't have time and resources to track all them.

Swap function is complex enough to challenge my human language skills. It is easier to say why it doesn't happen. In general the most decisive factors are pool amounts.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 7:59:55 AM   
morvael


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That's why I think the first step to cure this issue is not looking at swaps but to create production need for the new elements based on units having obsolete elements of the same class. Without the need, there is no production. Without production, there is no pool. Without pool, there is no swap. Without swap, there is no need.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 8:10:13 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

That's why I think the first step to cure this issue is not looking at swaps but to create production need for the new elements based on units having obsolete elements of the same class.


That's what upgrade function does.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 8:14:36 AM   
morvael


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And if there is no upgrade path?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 8:22:42 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

I wanted to know if you played with some specific elements.


I put 10,000 type 82 elements in the pool. I also answered my own question, they were not swapping because they were not in refit mode. After putting them all in refit mode I got a few swaps. That seems to have stopped after 19 of

So I am doing some more trial and error testing to answer these questions:
1. Will it swap if the unit is adjacent to an enemy unit?
2. Will it swap if it is in static mode?

The attached scenario file is 43-45 with all of the squads converted to type 81. This simulates the situation a player faces on 1 January 1943 . May I suggest you run it in AI verses AI mode and watch what happens to the German army in 1944 when the old style squads are no longer built.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 8:23:50 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

You do not have to look at anything if you would just explain in tiny words what must be true for a swap to occur. I just figured out a swap does not occur if a unit is not if refit mode. This trial and error exploration of how a feature works is tiresome.

Once I put all of the old style units in refit mode I started to see swaps. Why did all units not swap as soon as they are eligible.


Guess you was trying to swap Rifle Squads and I see they are the only ones in quantity of ~9K in the pool. Old type is in there in quantity of 783.

Some fast observations:

- Units should be on refit and not on the front line. Out of 209 units with old RS 0 are on refit.
- Old squads have 10 men and new ones 9 men, so manpower is not needed and some should even go to the pool
- After switching all of the units with old RS to refit they started to swap at rate of ~8-10 units per turn.
- Since pool of old elements went up, swapping rate reduced as one of conditions is that old element pool should be less than 5x of elements in the unit.
- Since "old" element still can be produced (end date 1943/12) it is hardly that pools will be decreasing


< Message edited by Helpless -- 4/24/2013 8:24:41 AM >


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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 8:57:50 AM   
Denniss

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
quote:

Will we see actual use of the internal export/upgrade function in WitE if also enabled for SOV ?


Can you please explain what do you mean here?
The internal export of ground elements/aircraft does not work for Soviets (at least as of 1.07.03), it does work for all Axis members. Internal export = shifting elements from one type to another of the same nation. I'm able to "upgrade" Panzer IV F2 to IV G using this function (Or Panzer III J/60 (AKA Pz III L to Panzer III M or StuG III B to StuG III F etc).
Re-installing the upgrade paths for all squad types and all nations should get this issue resolved and by using the "upgrade" function to get 32k old squads updated it should not cost as many armament points as in previous versions. But ongoing games are still broken in 43/44 if units can't get replacements especially if they are not replaced by TOE upgrades which should upgrade ground elements even without production or stuff in pool (arm-based production only).

Attached a mid 43 save from a .06 AI vs AI test, it shows some initial signs of problems with unusual 500k manpower in active german pool. It shows a generic failure of the AI to withdraw Panzer divs for refit and/or a failure of the swap function to get recent tanks into service -> obsolete IIIe/g or both 38(t) variants in service while the far more powerful IV F2 gets scrapped and several hundred IIIj/60 sit in pool.
Save also shows enormous losses of armored cars for Axis - AFAIR at least Germany used them very carefully by doctrine. Germany is basically down to 300 recons by mid 43.
What WitE really lacks is an upgrade engine for older tanks - Axis nations could not afford scrapping old tanks (or misusing them as tractors) but spent a lot of effor to upgrade them with additional armor or even uprated guns. In-game you'll see old Panzer IVc or StuG IIIb scrapped but several are known to exist in 44/45 with additional armor and long 75mm gun. Same with Panzer III - almost all got additional armor if they were sent back home for larger repairs and they got their 37mm turret replaced with short or long 50mm gun


EDIT: it would help ongoing games if the swap fuction could actually trigger production in certain cases (old element out of production and ground element type is arm-produced, with an increased chance if replacement element matches TOE setup).

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< Message edited by Denniss -- 4/24/2013 9:05:09 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/24/2013 9:18:10 AM   
morvael


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I'd be happy if only the scrapping would start immediately. Less coding than "internal exports", but similar effect (spent arm turned to good use).

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