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Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements

 
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Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 3:06:56 AM   
rmonical

 

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All - let's keep this thread clean and continue to vent on the armaments thread. Let the poor developers get their heads around this problem without a lot of extraneous posts.

The purpose of this thread is to summarize my results from analysis of the armaments thread. I believe the exceptionally slow conversion of ground elements that are going obsolete or are already obsolete qualifies as a bug.

This is the 7.06beta version.

The approach I used to validate the bug was to start the 44-45 campaign scenario vs. the computer on easy mode. Track the German security divisions which are still equipped with the obsolete rifle squads which went out of production on 12/43.

I then put everything in reserve. Then I put the security divisions on refit. I set TOE of all support elements to 60% and infantry units to 60%. There are plenty of armament points but few personnel points in the active pool. I did not see a divisional unit convert. Over the course of 7 turns, a total of 5 regiments converted.

Interestingly, the scenario file has 2642 39-43 style rifle squads all in security divisions. By 8/3/44 there 2601+240+65 or 2906 between the security units, pool and destroyed units list. So either some are still being produced or some are hidden at start.

As of T7, the Germans have 13,760 in the manpower pool (only 66 in the active pool).

My guess is that the system does not perform the conversion even though the manpower is in the converted from squads because there is insufficient manpower in the active pool to convert an entire division at once. The only reason I occasionally see a regiment upgraded is when the active pool blips up enough to convert the regiment.

The change request would be to convert from old to new type ground elements using the manpower in the converted from ground elements and only go to the pool if more manpower is needed (the new element type requires more men than the old). I'm not sure if this is a hard or an easy fix. I suspect this code will be needed in WITW if it is not already there as the Germans will have the same problem.

This is also why the 43 MG conversions go so fast - far fewer men required in the pool to convert a division.

Edit: For turn 8 I disbanded some units in turn 7. The 221st division finally upgraded along with a regiment. IMHO, the hypothesis above is looking pretty solid.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/23/2013 4:25:43 AM >
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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 3:35:06 AM   
rmonical

 

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I'm working on a 44-45 mod to test the armaments side of the problem.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 6:49:40 AM   
rmonical

 

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I added a bunch of personnel, armaments and created some new divisions with 39-43 motorized rifle squads. On T-04 I broke them down into regiments. In T-06 one of the regiments converted. Plenty of armaments and personnel in the active pool. Even with all of the personnel in the pool, the security units also continued to convert with agonizing slowness. So it is not a resource problem.

To be specific, I took the 1 HG PG Div (never in the game), changed the MR squad to type 94, rebuilt at 40% TOE, built 5 more and deployed them all around Warsaw. Upped the manpower pool to a million and the armaments to 500K. After 4 turns, you can see what the divisions look like. MR Squads still at 40%, the rest closing in on 100.




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< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/23/2013 7:26:39 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 7:11:39 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

My guess is that the system does not perform the conversion even though the manpower is in the converted from squads because there is insufficient manpower in the active pool to convert an entire division at once.


Upgrade/swap outs done for each ground element independently. You don't need manpower in the pool if element having the same or lower amount of men in squad.

I've run 1944 and see elements in Security divisions are upgrading at the expected rate.

The smaller the size on the element the higher chance it will get upgraded.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 7:29:02 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

I've run 1944 and see elements in Security divisions are upgrading at the expected rate.


What is the expected rate?

Edit: Actually, it does not matter. Since the expected rate of element upgrades is on the slow side, should an obsolete element that has not been upgraded prevent a unit from getting replacement elements of the current type?



< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/23/2013 7:31:27 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 7:31:00 AM   
Helpless


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The rate defined by the amount of units/element/elements in the pool/ etc..

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 7:50:13 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Since the expected rate of element upgrades is on the slow side,


It is not on the slow side. Upgrades can be really massive if conditions are met. I got all rifle squads in security division upgraded by the turn 5.

quote:


should an obsolete element that has not been upgraded prevent a unit from getting replacement elements of the current type?


Upgrade and replacement are independent processes. If ground element end date has been passed it shouldn't be produced, but should get the replacements if conditions are met.





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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 7:58:56 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

replacements if conditions are met.


Is one of the conditions sufficient squads of the new type already existing in the pool? In other words, they must be in the pool, they can not be produced this turn to be added to the unit?

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:13:39 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Is one of the conditions sufficient squads of the new type already existing in the pool? In other words, they must be in the pool, they can not be produced this turn to be added to the unit?


Yes. New elements should be in the pool when upgrade is done.

Edit: One correction, this is true for the AFV-types.

< Message edited by Helpless -- 4/23/2013 10:28:33 AM >


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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:26:26 AM   
morvael


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What about improving the code for upgrading infantry squad types (Rifle Squad, Cavalry Squad, Mech-Inf Squad, Mech-Engr Squad, Engineer Squad etc) so that it would automatically upgrade/swap those elements "in place" that is by taking (or returning) just the extra men/arm cost from the pool? This would limit the "wasted armaments" problem, as rifle squads are very numerous and they usually contain just minor changes to equipment rather than represent completely new equipment (as in guns or tanks).

Example - make a random die roll for obsolete "infantry squad type" elements similar to TOE upgrade chance and if successful do the following:
- a division has 100 obsolete Motorized Rifle Squad (1/39-12/43) elements with 10 men and build cost 10, that's 1000 men and 1000 build cost in total
- there is no upgrade patch so an alternative has to be chosen
- alternative is Motorized Rifle Squad (1/43-9/45) with 10 men and build cost 12, that's 1000 men and 1200 build cost for 100
- if there is 200 free armaments points in the pool, use it and swap 100 old squads with 100 new squads and look for another unit with obsolete elements
- if there is no free armaments points in the pool, swap 100 old squads with 83 new squads, return 170 men to the pool and stop the procedure for this turn

Of course as this is an in-place upgrade the old squads should just vanish, not return to the pool as they are being upgraded (or downgraded) to new model.

This would help to remove the unrealistic element in squad upgrades, when a completely new set of weapons has to be built and the old one is left unused.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:31:16 AM   
morvael


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Security divisions will have problems with upgrading squads as my report shows:

[467] 42 Security Division -> [347] 45 Infantry Division
Security Combat Division, 42/10 - 44/12
 Needs           Sup Fuel Ammo  Veh
 Motorized        97  105  160 1170
+Non-Motorized   142    6  160   86
Support: 248/315 (78.73)

 292 Rifle Squad #-+
  16 Cavalry Squad 
   6 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
  18 81mm Mortar 
   6 75mm Infantry Gun 
  12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
  12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) 
  36 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) 
  63 50mm Mortar (Light Mortar) 
  63 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) 
  36 Security Squad 
 248 Support 

9241 men, 48 guns, 0 AFV, CV 12.98 (5.40 @ 70)


# means their element becomes obsolete while the TOE lasts
-+ means there is no upgrade path for their element, but there are alternatives

My tests with AA guns have proven that the engine is extremely conservative when it comes to swapping old types to new types with no incentive from TOE and from upgrade path, because it doesn't feel the need to build new elements as they are not needed by any TOE, and there are numbers of old elements in the pool and in transit every turn which are enough for the engine to play with and shift them between similar units to no end.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:40:27 AM   
rmonical

 

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So the requirement that the target element of the upgrade be in the pool means that it got their by attrition or combat. If motorized rifle squads are produced in anticipation of need, I am not seeing it.

So here is what I think is happening.

The units which have the obsolete element are competing with units that lost the new element to attrition or combat to get that element type. They need the new element type so they can get to full strength. They cannot currently get to full strength because there are insufficient old element types.

What we are seeing is units waiting to upgrade to the new element type and are in refit mode are not getting the new elements. They are going to the units that already have the new element type even when they are not in refit mode. The production system will produce additional elements of the new element type only for units that already have them and apparently this happens after the elements in the pool are allocated out.

So, if elements in refit mode got the new element types in the pool for upgrade before units not in refit mode, then this would move the problem in the right direction. Currently, a player has to set all of the units that already have the new element types to a very low max TOE in order to give the units that have the obsolete element type a chance to upgrade.

However, my preference (and I think the more correct approach) is to allow units to upgrade to new element types directly from production, bypassing the pool. I see no compelling reason for the new element type to be in the pool.

How do the new element types get in the pool to be available for upgrade when the new element type first becomes available? Are they produced at some low level in anticipation of requirements?

It is turn 12 of my test case. 40 new stype MR squads in the pool. A bunch of regiments needing 27 to upgrade and still no joy. Not a single upgrade of the 20+ regiments waiting. I would be happy to send in the turn/scenario files.




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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:44:08 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

What about improving the code for upgrading infantry squad types ..


It was discussed in the past. The problem would be that all armament production was done to compensate the need (or some part of it). I'm afraid such change would be too heavy for the current development stage, but can be considered for the future releases.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:47:23 AM   
morvael


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Yes, I think it would be wise to at least consider it for the new games. The algorithm I proposed brings more reality to how infantry squads upgraded/downgraded while not requiring any changes to ground element model.

In this game all that can be done is either to lower the cost of late war infantry squad elements or increase late war ARM production even further.

edit: and also introduce TOEs that would help with swaps for the major units (eg. a new TOE on the date of new squad introduction).

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/23/2013 8:49:59 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 8:56:57 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

It is turn 12 of my test case. 40 new stype MR squads in the pool. A bunch of regiments needing 27 to upgrade and still no joy. Not a single upgrade of the 20+ regiments waiting. I would be happy to send in the turn/scenario files.


40 is very low number. Motorized Squads have different treatment. You may attach a save to the post.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 9:11:36 AM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

40 is very low number.


Well, the elements only make it to the active pool if nobody wants them. Otherwise they go into and come out of the transit pool. It looks to me like the units waiting for upgrade need elements from the active pool. I did get a regiment to upgrade to the new element type (27) on T13. After recombining the division - it zipped to 100% TOE with 54 of the obsolete element type and 121 of the '43 MR squads. Look for 1st HG PG Div near Warsaw.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:21:35 AM   
Helpless


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As I can see 39'Motorized Rifle has no upgrade set in your file. Upgrade routine will never trigger for them.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:29:52 AM   
morvael


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But in the official generic data files in current version it is also that there is no upgrade path. This was done to let both types of squads to coexist in '43, perhaps it was done to ease the swap process but it never worked that way. It will be better to make the older types available for the first half of '43 and the new one in the second half of '43 and the older ones to upgrade into the new one.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:43:35 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

But in the official generic data files in current version it is also that there is no upgrade path.


Don't know. I see the upgrade in my files (94->96). Not in the save attached.

In any case it should be there if you want to see them upgrading.

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:55:03 AM   
morvael


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There is a lot of cases when we have to rely on swapping, not upgrading and both ways should work semi-efficiently.

edit: in 1.07.06 beta patch there is no upgrade path.

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/23/2013 10:56:55 AM >

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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 11:04:43 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

There is a lot of cases when we have to rely on swapping


Don't know what "rely" means here, but swapping is "emergency" procedure used to kick in after the upgrade and replacement.

So far I see nothing wrong with the code.

< Message edited by Helpless -- 4/23/2013 11:05:07 AM >


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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 11:29:31 AM   
morvael


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Examples based on latest version:
37mm Anti-tank Guns in 41 Panzer Division, 41 Elite Motorized Regiment, 41 SS Motorized Division (-), 41b SS Motorized Division, 41 Motorized Division, 41 Motorized Brigade, 41 Mountain Division, 41 Security Division, 41 SS Infantry Division, 41 AC Sturm Division, 41c Infantry Division, 41 Flieger Division, 41 Airlanding Division, 41 Jager Division will rely on swap
Panzerjager I in 41 SS Motorized Division, 41 Motorized Brigade will rely on swap
50mm Anti-tank Gun, 41 Jager Division in 41 Airlanding Division will rely on swap
Motorized Rifle Squad in 41 SS Motorized Brigade
Rifle Squad and 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle in 41 Fortified Zone will rely on swap
Rifle Squad, Pioneer Squad, 50mm Anti-tank Gun, Marder II, sIG33 in 42 SS Cavalry Division will rely on swap

This is very common, so it should work as smooth as upgrade procedure, not as an emergency. Swap is required every time where the element is no longer available to be built when given TOE is active (or ceases to be available during TOE active life).

Just look at my TOE Details report and look for items marked with "#-+". Will soon upload files based on latest beta.



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RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 11:48:58 AM   
morvael


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Grep'ing all my report files these are instances of various elements that will depend on the swap procedure to let their parent TOE/unit to get some fresh meat:

9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
6 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
36 7.62mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) #-+
30 20mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
4 45mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
8 45mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 76mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
44 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
71 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
63 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
57 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
25 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
42 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
42 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
66 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
66 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
66 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
6 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
29 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
216 Motorized Rifle Squad (Motor-Inf Squad) #-+
15 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
36 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
3 SdKfz-6/2 SP Flak #-+
4 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
57 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
9 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
33 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
29 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
30 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
25 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 Marder II (SdKfz-132) (Lt Tank Destroyer) #-+
7 sIG33 (SP Inf-Gun) ##-+
3 Motorized Rifle Squad (+) (Motor-Inf Squad) #-+
4 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
34 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 SdKfz-6/2 SP Flak #-+
18 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
21 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
25 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
29 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
20 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
6 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
292 Rifle Squad #-+
6 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
51 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) #-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
51 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) #-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
65 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
8 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
74 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) ##-+
4 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
18 SdKfz-6/2 SP Flak ##-+
24 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
88 Panzer IIIm (Medium Tank) ##-+
21 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
27 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car #-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
12 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
30 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
9 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
45 Tiger (Heavy Tank) #-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
9 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
6 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
6 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
15 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
9 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
9 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
16 Panzer IIL Lynx (Light Tank) #-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak #-+
4 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
29 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-233 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) #-+
18 SdKfz-222 Armored Car ##-+
54 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
3 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
18 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car #-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
14 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car #-+
14 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
39 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
8 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak #-+
15 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car #-+
18 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
12 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
3 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak #-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
13 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
6 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
13 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
33 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak ##-+
9 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
8 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
13 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
18 SdKfz-7/2 SP Flak ##-+
4 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak ##-+
16 SdKfz-234/1 Armored Car ##-+
12 Wespe (SP Artillery) ##-+
5 Panzer IIIg (Medium Tank) ##-+
36 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
27 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
6 sIG33 (SP Inf-Gun) #-+
2 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
36 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
3 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
3 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 Panzer IVc (CS Tank) ##-+
8 Rifle Squad #-+
3 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
3 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
9 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) #-+
18 280/320mm Nebelwerfer (Rocket) #-+
2 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
18 Marder II (SdKfz-131) (Lt Tank Destroyer) #-+
9 Panzerjager I (Lt Tank Destroyer) ##-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
12 StuIG33B (Hvy Assault Gun) #-+
36 280/320mm Nebelwerfer (Rocket) #-+
8 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
6 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
16 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
6 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
18 280/320mm Nebelwerfer (Rocket) #-+
8 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
9 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
16 Maultier (Rocket) #-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
3 SdKfz-7/1 SP Flak #-+
20 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
4 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
195 Rifle Squad #-+
20 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
180 Rifle Squad #-+
20 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
156 Rifle Squad #-+
16 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
4 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
27 Rifle Squad #-+
162 Rifle Squad #-+
4 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
4 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
345 Rifle Squad #-+
10 Zrinyi II (Assault Gun) #-+
120 Rifle Squad #-+
27 Turan-II (Medium Tank) #-+
345 Rifle Squad #-+
18 Turan-II (Medium Tank) #-+
30 Zrinyi II (Assault Gun) ##-+
32 Zrinyi II (Assault Gun) #-+
8 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
46 CV-33 (Light Tank) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
46 CV-33 (Light Tank) #-+
8 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
8 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) ##-+
36 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
4 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
16 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
8 75mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
48 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) ##-+
4 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
8 90mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
12 90mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
12 47mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
24 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 100mm Howitzer (Artillery) ##-+
12 75mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
12 CV-33 Flame Tank #-+
12 75mm Field Gun (Artillery) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
12 75mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Medium Flak) #-+
9 149mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
14 OA vz.30 Armored Car #-+
12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
3 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
18 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
168 Motor Squad (Motor-Inf Squad) #-+
21 Rifle Squad #-+
6 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
72 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) #-+
24 50mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) #-+
30 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) #-+
12 37mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Light Flak) #-+
12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) #-+
16 37mm Anti-aircraft Gun (Light Flak) #-+
16 T-38 M1937 (DD Tank) ##-+
32 BT-7 M1937 (Cavalry Tank) ##-+
20 T-26 M1937 (Light Tank) ##-+
16 T-38 M1937 (DD Tank) ##-+
36 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
5 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
17 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
60 T-26 M1937 (Light Tank) ##-+
10 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
8 BA-10 Armored Car ##-+
12 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
30 BA-10 Armored Car ##-+
7 BA-20 Armored Car #-+
7 BA-20 Armored Car #-+
36 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
108 Sapper Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
15 BA-10 Armored Car ##-+
27 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
27 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
7 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
3 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
7 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
48 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
16 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
48 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
16 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
9 BA-20 Armored Car ##-+
4 BA-10 Armored Car #-+
7 T-70 M1942 (Light Tank) #-+

edit: ops, the code tag didn't work properly.

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/23/2013 11:52:33 AM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 23
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 1:01:22 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 2190
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline
The obvious code problem is that swapping needs something in the pool to swap to, otherwise it doesn't work. German squad upgrades fail because they have to rely on swaps but can't trigger production itself. Even on TOE upgrades these squads are usually not upgraded. So either the swap or TOE upgrade functions should be improved to trigger arm-based production if sufficient manpower/arm points available after sending the old stuff to pool).


As I suggested in one of the other threads, a way to improve this data-wise would be to install upgrade paths and internal exports (to upgrade old squads to the follow-on type). A similar internal export could also be used to convert the german MG 34 machine gun squads to MG 42 type, otherwise you'll typically have multiple thousand armament points lying dead in pool. The romanian inf squad change in 1942 should be a priority target as they usualy can't effort the reduction from 17 to 10 men within time so they still have high casualities despite having a lower-men squad type available (but almost no arm production to cover this).

To be fair, this should be enabled for both sides, the last time I tested it worked for all Axis but not for Soviet.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 24
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 2:35:08 PM   
rmonical

 

Posts: 1389
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

As I can see 39'Motorized Rifle has no upgrade set in your file. Upgrade routine will never trigger for them.


I went back to the Jan 2012 files. It is the same. The following '39 types overlap with but do not upgrade to their corresponding '43 types: 81, 84, 94. Rifle, pioneer and motorized rifle squads.

It is not a coincidence that two of these are the types are causing problems for Pelton and DV. The pioneer squad has not emerged as an issue.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 25
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 2:58:37 PM   
rmonical

 

Posts: 1389
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Don't know what "rely" means here, but swapping is "emergency" procedure used to kick in after the upgrade and replacement.

So far I see nothing wrong with the code.


Looks like a disconnect between the scenario designers and the code. Other than my suggestions in the armaments thread, is there anything to help this situation?

In a perfect world, the replacement procedure would allow the two types to co-exist in the same unit as they do when an upgraded regiment recombines with its other regiments. The old type just gradually ages out. This appears to be what happens with the various medium tank types. Less ideal than for squads which would generally upgrade (swap) all at once, but the upgrade (swap) process in WITE is artificially difficult and expensive.

Alternatively, making it easier for the swap to occur would be very helpful. Currently, the campaign games are all broken once they hit Jan 44 because of this disconnect between the scenario design and the code.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/23/2013 3:00:54 PM >

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 26
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 2:58:48 PM   
rmonical

 

Posts: 1389
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline
It would probably also be very helpful to the games caught in this situation to document the factors impacting the probability of the swap occurring. The effected players can break down into regiments and send regiments to try to maximize their chances of getting the swap.

Again, a potential partial fix would be allow the swaps to occur for refit units before replacements are allocated to non-refit units.




< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/23/2013 3:18:29 PM >

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 27
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 3:15:33 PM   
morvael


Posts: 3629
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: online
Tanks work because their production is not on demand so the new ones build whether there is someone to use them or not, thus enabling units to swap at later date.

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 28
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 9:24:39 PM   
morvael


Posts: 3629
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: online
Could this be sorted in a way that would require least work on 2by3 part in the code? Because alternative is unlikely.
1) Verify why Pavel says his version has upgrade path, and ours does not.
2) Verify if all scenarios have latest generic ground elements and TOEs imported.
3) Verify if other squad elements require adding upgrade paths.
4) Verify if some TOEs could use better types of those upgradable elements.
5) introduce more TOEs for main units (inf div) to better guide the engine on the squad upgrade path.
6) Run tests with this new model.
7) A tiny bit of code modification could help - make squad type elements scrappable as soon as they become obsolete (and maybe scrap them more aggressively), to regain invested ARM quicker.

Can we do it?

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/23/2013 9:25:32 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 29
RE: Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements - 4/23/2013 10:32:00 PM   
rmonical

 

Posts: 1389
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Could this be sorted in a way that would require least work on 2by3 part in the code? Because alternative is unlikely.

Most excellent suggestion. Because of the campaign games that are in flight, I lean toward a software solution that addresses or minimizes the impact. Fixing scenario files does not help the folks already deep into a campaign game.

The swap process seems to recognize that the obsolete 94 (MR Squad) needs to be replaced by the current type 96 squad, but I do not know how it knows that. It looks to me like, once a new type is added to a unit that has the obsolete types, the engine handles the results just fine but I have not run it over a few turns. Recall that I get both types in a division by combining an upgraded regiment with its un-upgraded brethren.

Since the code recognizes the link between the 94-96 types, it seems to me that the overall least pain path is to allow it to add 96 types to a unit that already has 94 types. It could either do this when the 94 types go obsolete (1/44) or when the 96 types come available (1/43).

In the example from my test discussed above, a regiment was upgraded then combined with the base division on T-13. On T-14, the division was brought up to strength with new style squads. The image shows both squad types peacably coexisting. It seems pretty painless from the point the first new style squad gets into the division with obsolete squads but requires more testing. Maybe tomorrow.





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(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 30
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