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Do resources move by land?

 
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Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 12:51:04 PM   
Sieppo


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I'm thinking about my shipping of resources from Malaya and Thailand nearer to Japan. I have cleared a way all the way to Fusan by land but I'm really not sure, if I'm noticing any resource movement by land. Can someone please give a definitive answer?
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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 1:31:05 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I'm thinking about my shipping of resources from Malaya and Thailand nearer to Japan. I have cleared a way all the way to Fusan by land but I'm really not sure, if I'm noticing any resource movement by land. Can someone please give a definitive answer?



yes and oil as well, both without spoilage or attrition per previous posts and experiments by very energetic people.

However when they move and more significantly where they move is a different question. Just one example: moving resources from Singers to Hong Kong by ship, resources and oil pile up for a while and then they disappear from HK. However they just seem to distribute themselves fairly evenly throughout the Asian mainland. If you move them from Singers to Shanghai at least as many seem to move back to HK (overland!) as move to Port Arthur by rail. The size of the port has a lot to do with the movement, but it's not everything. Bottom line, it is not an effective way (if gamey) to bypass the Formosa Strait bottleneck for shipping (although if 200 subs are parked there it's better than nothing )

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 2:37:14 PM   
Sieppo


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Great reply, thanks! I do not consider it TOO gamey - desperate times require desperate actions. Building an infrastructure for such thing is possible even though it did not happen IRL :).

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 5:27:57 PM   
Lokasenna


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In a game I'm about to wrap up against the AI, I've got about 1.2M fuel and 1.1M resources sitting at Singers without stockpiling on (but they keep piling up, presumably from within the Malaysian peninsula). I have noticed some slight movement of resources out of Singers beginning when I opened up the Magical Coast Road by taking Nanning (finally), but nothing major - somewhere between 100K-500K moved out. I'm having to resort to shipping it to Hong Kong, from whence it seems to have moderate success in moving all the way around to Fusan and/or Port Arthur. The Oil supply in Singers (carted in from Boela/Babo) seems to be diminishing only because of Thailand's needs.

Singers's large port and industry sizes seem to be preventing much from moving away. However, I don't have stockpiling set up anywhere but at Fusan and Hong Kong (I'm not sure turning it on actually draws them in, anyway).

I would love for PaxMondo to share his settings preferences for the Magic Coast Road. As I recall, he gets it to work .

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 6:13:45 PM   
V I Lenin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Great reply, thanks! I do not consider it TOO gamey - desperate times require desperate actions. Building an infrastructure for such thing is possible even though it did not happen IRL :).


In fact it isn't just 'gamey' but totally, insanely, mindbogglingly absurd - shipments from Malaya alone are bulk goods, like rubber, bauxite, tin, which are totally impractical to move by land due to the weight, volume and distance involved - Singapore to Shanghai (the conceptually least unhinged end port) is ~4000mi; only part of the route has any sort of railway present (you're not going to get any meaningful movement by road alone, doubly so in the 1940s and triply to octupally so for Japan in the 1940s), and even if the Japanese economy were up to producing the tens of thousands of miles of rail, hundreds of bridges, hundreds of locomotives and thousands of wagons that would be needed to construct such a thing after spending years surveying, planning, removing local guerillas & hostile armies etc from the route (surprise: it isn't, unless you compromise its ability to fight a war) it would still require several times less fuel to just put these things on a boat. Meaning, even if every other boat gets sunk you still come out ahead...and that without even considering that a railway's throughput capacity (ie, the amount of 'stuff' which can be moved per unit of time) is minuscule compared to shipping.

Obviously, it's a game and you can do what you want - but - remember that this is a time where building a couple of hundred of miles of road over the course of a year under war conditions is an enormous task - so don't for a second think to yourself that it could have actually been done.

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 6:22:01 PM   
Sieppo


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At the moment I'm transporting resources via ship from Singers to Cam and from there to Hong Kong, because also I'm not noticing any major movement..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

In a game I'm about to wrap up against the AI, I've got about 1.2M fuel and 1.1M resources sitting at Singers without stockpiling on (but they keep piling up, presumably from within the Malaysian peninsula). I have noticed some slight movement of resources out of Singers beginning when I opened up the Magical Coast Road by taking Nanning (finally), but nothing major - somewhere between 100K-500K moved out. I'm having to resort to shipping it to Hong Kong, from whence it seems to have moderate success in moving all the way around to Fusan and/or Port Arthur. The Oil supply in Singers (carted in from Boela/Babo) seems to be diminishing only because of Thailand's needs.

Singers's large port and industry sizes seem to be preventing much from moving away. However, I don't have stockpiling set up anywhere but at Fusan and Hong Kong (I'm not sure turning it on actually draws them in, anyway).

I would love for PaxMondo to share his settings preferences for the Magic Coast Road. As I recall, he gets it to work .


(in reply to Lokasenna)
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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 6:24:53 PM   
Sieppo


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You might be right but there still are existing roads and railroads all the way to Fusan and as someone in a different thread said (I think he was Chinese), people underestimate the productivity of eastern people.. However, I'm a bit skeptical, if the stockpile pull is that strong all the way to Fusan or even Hong Kong..

quote:

ORIGINAL: V I Lenin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Great reply, thanks! I do not consider it TOO gamey - desperate times require desperate actions. Building an infrastructure for such thing is possible even though it did not happen IRL :).


In fact it isn't just 'gamey' but totally, insanely, mindbogglingly absurd - shipments from Malaya alone are bulk goods, like rubber, bauxite, tin, which are totally impractical to move by land due to the weight, volume and distance involved - Singapore to Shanghai (the conceptually least unhinged end port) is ~4000mi; only part of the route has any sort of railway present (you're not going to get any meaningful movement by road alone, doubly so in the 1940s and triply to octupally so for Japan in the 1940s), and even if the Japanese economy were up to producing the tens of thousands of miles of rail, hundreds of bridges, hundreds of locomotives and thousands of wagons that would be needed to construct such a thing after spending years surveying, planning, removing local guerillas & hostile armies etc from the route (surprise: it isn't, unless you compromise its ability to fight a war) it would still require several times less fuel to just put these things on a boat. Meaning, even if every other boat gets sunk you still come out ahead...and that without even considering that a railway's throughput capacity (ie, the amount of 'stuff' which can be moved per unit of time) is minuscule compared to shipping.

Obviously, it's a game and you can do what you want - but - remember that this is a time where building a couple of hundred of miles of road over the course of a year under war conditions is an enormous task - so don't for a second think to yourself that it could have actually been done.



< Message edited by Sieppo -- 4/22/2013 6:25:37 PM >

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 8:44:56 PM   
V I Lenin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

You might be right but there still are existing roads and railroads all the way to Fusan and as someone in a different thread said (I think he was Chinese), people underestimate the productivity of eastern people.



"Productivity" doesn't make a train magically not burn a third of its own weight in coal each way to travel the sorts of distances involved here. It's idiotic in the extreme.

(I don't mean that in an unpleasant way, it's just that the economics of it really don't work out, but a lot of people seem to think it's perfectly natural for this to happen)

< Message edited by V I Lenin -- 4/22/2013 8:47:01 PM >

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/22/2013 9:04:28 PM   
Sieppo


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So trains use fuel but ships don't :P? Look I get your point and I don't even quite think that the game makes this possible..


quote:

ORIGINAL: V I Lenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

You might be right but there still are existing roads and railroads all the way to Fusan and as someone in a different thread said (I think he was Chinese), people underestimate the productivity of eastern people.



"Productivity" doesn't make a train magically not burn a third of its own weight in coal each way to travel the sorts of distances involved here. It's idiotic in the extreme.

(I don't mean that in an unpleasant way, it's just that the economics of it really don't work out, but a lot of people seem to think it's perfectly natural for this to happen)


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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 4:02:22 AM   
Numdydar

 

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One thing that impacts the land movement or Feul/Oil/etc. is the demand. If you have a lot of convoys going to Sinapore, the Sinapore is going to be where everything piles up, since you are picking it all up there. If you want the stuff to move, then it helps if you create a demand somewhere else. Shanghi is good for picking up oil since nothing there needs oil. However picking up fuel needs to be done elsewhere, like Chunga (sp?) up the river from Shanghi since nothing there needs fuel. This will increase the demad for those goods at those locations so they will slowly start to travel there. However, if you stop the demand for some reason, the the routine will start to redistribute it to where it thinks the highest demand is next. And it could be somewhere where you do not want it, but the AI say "oh yes you do"

If there were no convoys at all, then the stuff would travel to where it was needed. Could be HI factories or refineries for fuel and oil. Fuel will also travel to ports with high number of ships assigned to it as their home port. So demand plays a big part as to where everything moves to. While the player does not have complete control of where all the demand is, they can certainly infulence it so at least more than would be normal, goes to where the player wants it versus the routines.

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 4:11:40 AM   
Lokasenna


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Until the last couple of game days, I had no resource/oil/fuel convoys leaving from Singapore :(. I did cut back on my convoys from Fusan because I had run it dry after letting materials stockpile there for a while, so I scaled the convoys back. Are you saying that if I set up Hong Kong->HI or Shanghai->HI convoys, the stuff will flow up the Magic Coast Road?

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 4:19:29 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Yes. But it will obviously take a while . We are takiling months in game time as this stuff does not move very fast (for obvious reasons).

So it is much faster to move by sea as noted above. But for Japan as the Allied noose tightens, getting stuff out of the DEI becomes impossible. So the sooner the demand is set up at closer ports, the better. The begining of '44 would be a good time to start depending on where the Allies are advancing to. You just need to plan for the lag time involved.

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 8:59:18 AM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I'm thinking about my shipping of resources from Malaya and Thailand nearer to Japan. I have cleared a way all the way to Fusan by land but I'm really not sure, if I'm noticing any resource movement by land. Can someone please give a definitive answer?


Game situation June 43 as Japan against AI. Latest Beta.

Don't know if it's the way I play the game or not but I've not been using oil/ fuel stockpile except for one exception. Reason I do not is for the very reason stated above, it is unrealistic to have res move all the way from Burma to Korea by rail/road. Initially I had huge amonuts of stockpiled resources at Singas but have now moved it all by CS. The only real problem I have is China where overland movement is very very slow from Urumchi. I did try turning on stockpiling at Tientsin (closest big port to Urumchi) but it made no difference to Urumchi and little it appeared to Tientsin. As for oil in China I've no idea where most of it is going. The oil in China is not going to Tientsin but a good amount is appearing in Shanghai, Port Arthur and Fusan

My current res CS convoys for Asia are Rangoon, Singapore, Cam Ranh Bay, Shanghai, Tietsin, Port Arthur, Kiejo and Fusan with all the ports at there max. With one small one running from Haiphong to Hong Kong. Oil CS convoys for Asia are from Singapore, Shanghai and Fusan although I've just noticed Port Arthur is holding 80K so I'll send a one of to pick it up.

The one exception I mentioned above is in Luzon to move res to Naga. It's currently level 5 soon to be 6 but without stockpile res do not flow to it full stop. Because of this I posted that res/oil were not flowing over road/rails as they should nowever I've revised this, it must be to keep by CS convoys continually supplied. I still do not know way it won't to Naga though.

My conclusion is you do not need to turn stockpiling on and to me it is gamey, more so than some of the other gamey stuff. If you are getting sub'd to death the Japanese where in real life. Flood areas around Formosa and the E Chana/Yellow Sea area with ASW it works to a degree.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 2:32:39 PM   
Sieppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

One thing that impacts the land movement or Feul/Oil/etc. is the demand. If you have a lot of convoys going to Sinapore, the Sinapore is going to be where everything piles up, since you are picking it all up there. If you want the stuff to move, then it helps if you create a demand somewhere else. Shanghi is good for picking up oil since nothing there needs oil. However picking up fuel needs to be done elsewhere, like Chunga (sp?) up the river from Shanghi since nothing there needs fuel. This will increase the demad for those goods at those locations so they will slowly start to travel there. However, if you stop the demand for some reason, the the routine will start to redistribute it to where it thinks the highest demand is next. And it could be somewhere where you do not want it, but the AI say "oh yes you do"

If there were no convoys at all, then the stuff would travel to where it was needed. Could be HI factories or refineries for fuel and oil. Fuel will also travel to ports with high number of ships assigned to it as their home port. So demand plays a big part as to where everything moves to. While the player does not have complete control of where all the demand is, they can certainly infulence it so at least more than would be normal, goes to where the player wants it versus the routines.


Thanks! I was wondering, why even with stockpile on in Fusan, the Fuel level stayed at 13k, which was quite a bit lower than what I was hoping for. When I started moving it to Japan, it still remained at 13k. So demand was refilling the stockpile!

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 2:38:48 PM   
Sieppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I'm thinking about my shipping of resources from Malaya and Thailand nearer to Japan. I have cleared a way all the way to Fusan by land but I'm really not sure, if I'm noticing any resource movement by land. Can someone please give a definitive answer?




My conclusion is you do not need to turn stockpiling on and to me it is gamey, more so than some of the other gamey stuff. If you are getting sub'd to death the Japanese where in real life. Flood areas around Formosa and the E Chana/Yellow Sea area with ASW it works to a degree.



I don't think it is unrealistic to decide to stockpile material in a wanted location. People are capable of that also in real life :). The magic road is another thing then but I really do not think it works as people want it to..

(in reply to Chris H)
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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 3:45:07 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

I'm thinking about my shipping of resources from Malaya and Thailand nearer to Japan. I have cleared a way all the way to Fusan by land but I'm really not sure, if I'm noticing any resource movement by land. Can someone please give a definitive answer?




My conclusion is you do not need to turn stockpiling on and to me it is gamey, more so than some of the other gamey stuff. If you are getting sub'd to death the Japanese where in real life. Flood areas around Formosa and the E Chana/Yellow Sea area with ASW it works to a degree.



I don't think it is unrealistic to decide to stockpile material in a wanted location. People are capable of that also in real life :). The magic road is another thing then but I really do not think it works as people want it to..



Stockpiling isn't but the consequences are the magic road. As some one else said earlier, resources will flow to a port were there is demand which is why Singas, Shanhai, Port Arthur etc attract it and that is without stockpiling.

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/23/2013 11:14:38 PM   
pompack


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Just a note: "Stockpiling" prevents item from flowing OUT; it does noting to prevent, enhance or aid items flowing IN.

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 4/24/2013 12:28:18 AM   
Sieppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Just a note: "Stockpiling" prevents item from flowing OUT; it does noting to prevent, enhance or aid items flowing IN.


GOOD to know !!

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 5/16/2013 6:11:54 AM   
Yaab


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Do resources/oil/fuel move by roads/rail only or can they move across hexes with no roads/rail infrastructure?

Let's say there is city A (producing Resources) connected by a long, single road to city B(which has Light Industry) and they are both located in a desert. Enemy unit enters one of the road hexes. Will the resources go around this unit, just as supplies would do, or will the flow of resources stop until the enemy unit is kicked out of the hex?


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RE: Do resources move by land? - 5/16/2013 9:20:15 AM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Do resources/oil/fuel move by roads/rail only or can they move across hexes with no roads/rail infrastructure?

Let's say there is city A (producing Resources) connected by a long, single road to city B(which has Light Industry) and they are both located in a desert. Enemy unit enters one of the road hexes. Will the resources go around this unit, just as supplies would do, or will the flow of resources stop until the enemy unit is kicked out of the hex?




Enemy units they block the flow of anything through them. They do not necessarily block the flow of supply into a hex, a friendly unit must be present, that is deptermined by who controls the hexsides. You can see this by using the 5 key.

< Message edited by Chris H -- 5/16/2013 9:23:27 AM >

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 5/16/2013 9:41:07 AM   
Yaab


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Chris H, thanks for the answer.

I thought the "5" key was for supplies only. I thought that resources/oil/fuel actually move along existing infrastructure (roads or railroads), hence my question.

So, if I hit "5" it shows me where supplies/resources/fuel/oil can travel to on the map, right?

(in reply to Chris H)
Post #: 21
RE: Do resources move by land? - 5/16/2013 9:46:17 PM   
Chris H

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Chris H, thanks for the answer.

I thought the "5" key was for supplies only. I thought that resources/oil/fuel actually move along existing infrastructure (roads or railroads), hence my question.

So, if I hit "5" it shows me where supplies/resources/fuel/oil can travel to on the map, right?


It is only supplies but if there's a road with an enemy unit in it you will see there is no supply thus demonstarating that they do block supply and will therefore block anything else.

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RE: Do resources move by land? - 5/17/2013 11:48:34 AM   
Zigurat666


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quote:

ORIGINAL: V I Lenin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Great reply, thanks! I do not consider it TOO gamey - desperate times require desperate actions. Building an infrastructure for such thing is possible even though it did not happen IRL :).


In fact it isn't just 'gamey' but totally, insanely, mindbogglingly absurd - shipments from Malaya alone are bulk goods, like rubber, bauxite, tin, which are totally impractical to move by land due to the weight, volume and distance involved - Singapore to Shanghai (the conceptually least unhinged end port) is ~4000mi; only part of the route has any sort of railway present (you're not going to get any meaningful movement by road alone, doubly so in the 1940s and triply to octupally so for Japan in the 1940s), and even if the Japanese economy were up to producing the tens of thousands of miles of rail, hundreds of bridges, hundreds of locomotives and thousands of wagons that would be needed to construct such a thing after spending years surveying, planning, removing local guerillas & hostile armies etc from the route (surprise: it isn't, unless you compromise its ability to fight a war) it would still require several times less fuel to just put these things on a boat. Meaning, even if every other boat gets sunk you still come out ahead...and that without even considering that a railway's throughput capacity (ie, the amount of 'stuff' which can be moved per unit of time) is minuscule compared to shipping.

Obviously, it's a game and you can do what you want - but - remember that this is a time where building a couple of hundred of miles of road over the course of a year under war conditions is an enormous task - so don't for a second think to yourself that it could have actually been done.


Unfortunatly the game does much of this moving by itself,so wether or not the Japanese player utilizes it it happens. So is the Jap player just supposed to ignore the fact that heaps of oil and fuel are sitting in HK,PA or Fusan?? It would be insane mindboggling and absurd to think the Japanese are going to waste time shipping it from far west when there are supplies closer to home.

_____________________________

***Schulzstaffen SS***

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