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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan

 
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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/14/2013 1:33:16 PM   
dazkaz15


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Wow!...

May I suggest a flow chart to make the pricing clearer Dave.
Maybe start with the BFTB>HTTR, with expansion purchased branches, and flow fourth from there

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 61
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/20/2013 9:12:47 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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I like charts

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 62
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/21/2013 12:59:14 AM   
Deathtreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heyhellowhatsnew

I like charts


Me too!!!!!

_____________________________

So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 63
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/22/2013 8:36:25 PM   
altipueri

 

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Game engine + tutorial + 1 scenario all for free.

Sell scenario packs.

Trust me. I know these things. I'm a venture capitalist: www.equityventures.co.uk (with a website circa 1995).

(in reply to Deathtreader)
Post #: 64
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/22/2013 10:48:49 PM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Game engine + tutorial + 1 scenario all for free.

Sell scenario packs.


Imho this has been the philosophy so far. Game engine + tutorial (vids) + 1 scenario = Command Ops demo. The full game is the same package with the complement of (albeit patched) scenario's. HTTR = scenario pack 1, and COTA will be scenario packs 2 & 3.
This has led to a small group of dedicated followers, but not the kind of exposure this game deserves.


(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 65
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/24/2013 6:21:36 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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I prefer the charts instead.

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Post #: 66
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/11/2013 4:25:59 AM   
Brindlebane


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Having now got to grips with the game,and that did take a little with the learning curve.Well and truly hooked.Finally got Arnhem and looking forward to the CotA updates.

Just a request,all the game lacks is some ambience in the background.Not such an issue once battle commences but having some background sounds helps with the immersion i feel.At the moment i'm using media player playing one of the sound mods from CM.Would be great though if it could be in the game engine.Don't think it's possible to mod in at the moment.It's just a small thing bit it would make a hell of a difference.Anyway here's to the future and more stuff from you guys.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 67
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/11/2013 7:21:41 AM   
Arjuna


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What type of sound do you want. Can you provide an example.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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Post #: 68
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/11/2013 8:09:58 AM   
phoenix

 

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I always play with sound off. All that banging and whistling - not sure what it's meant to do for me in a game like this - can cue, I suppose, though I haven't needed it to. Certainly doesn't make me think I'm in a tent somewhere in the middle of a battlefield, and nor would anything more elaborate. But I guess, whatever it is, I'll just switch it off anyway.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 69
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/11/2013 9:31:58 AM   
dazkaz15


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I play with the sound on.
Like phoenix said it cue's you to events happening on the map, and this can be very helpful on large maps.
As for background music, I listen to the war tracks from the Hearts of Iron music expansion that I downloaded onto ITunes if I'm in the mood, or anything else I fancy, as ITunes player is always on in the background.
I don't think it would hurt to ship the expansions with some kind of music though, as people can always turn it off if they get bored with it, but a game doesn't seem complete these days without a theme tune.
You got no musicians down there in Oz then?
Come to think of it, the last group to come out of Australia that I can remember is Jason Donovan and Kylie Minogue, so that will be a NO then

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 70
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/11/2013 11:06:21 AM   
phoenix

 

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Kylie performs some truly fantastic pop, quality pop. No doubt about that. I like many different types of music, and Kylie is certainly up there on the pop front.

But, Oz has produced a mountain of fantastic stuff besides Kylie. Here's a wiki round-up of some of them - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_pop_songs

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 71
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/11/2013 2:18:58 PM   
altipueri

 

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Kylie in Nazi uniform? Subliminal flashes?

Personally the Austalian band I like best were the Skyhooks.

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 72
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/12/2013 4:44:58 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

Kylie in Nazi uniform? Subliminal flashes?

Personally the Austalian band I like best were the Skyhooks.



Here you go Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8AqVzwacbY

Air Supply, sweet dreams. The intro before they start to sing.
Perfect name, cool theme tune for your game, and there from Oz as well!

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 73
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/12/2013 7:26:50 AM   
Agent S


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-weddingcake island by the oils would give the game a sort of apocalypse now type vibe.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/12/2013 8:18:10 AM   
phoenix

 

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It was surprise me if Kylie hadn't done some vid in some kind of quasi Nazi get up, Alti. A la Madonna (her heroine and role model, I think). Best Kylie song ever, for me - 'Put Yourself in my Place'. That's quality pop, with less cliché to it than the more successful stuff. Youtube vid here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9t6wef5xlE

Great Australian moments. lol...

< Message edited by phoenix -- 6/12/2013 8:21:35 AM >

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/12/2013 7:45:23 PM   
rfrizz


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Divinyls?

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/18/2013 8:07:41 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

I'm still pondering and haven't made a final decision on the pricing model. Right now though I'm just focussed on getting out the patch (uploading to matrix as I type) and then the Greek and Med packs.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

What type of sound do you want. Can you provide an example.



Ok let's ignore Kylie for now and get back to the original discussion, or Arjuna's request for feedback on the pricing ordeal and the game sound.

Last time I checked this forum was like last year, maybe around x-mas, as there weren't real news, and with Dave's limited resources regarding manpower/time, it looked like I'd have to wait another 2 yrs to see the EF game materialize. I am pretty surprised to see this new plan out here, now.

    My suggestions for the pricing:

  • I'd suggest to set the price tag for the core engine to $24.99.
  • Each datapack, since it reflects extensive research and testing, should be set to $34.99 .

  • If a pack contains less than say 6 scenarios, it should be set to the price of a "booster"-pack, eg. $19.99, for example.

    Since there are military theatres or operations that only provide for say a grand scenario

    (a good example would be operation varsity, a projected 4-day operation that partially went way beyond the projected progress, and partially stalled in the northern part of the bridgehead, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Rhine_Crossings_in_the_North_24-28_March_1945.jpg )

    and 1 or 2 side-scenarios, max., due to historical decisions/conditions and resources at hand, but also - due to the need for extensive research for such biggies - it may be beyond community mappers' possibilities to render such big operations.
    Booster packs would also up the output/release rates, as it takes less time to produce them.


Now, the confusing part:

I am not sure how to interpret this statement:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

"So with the release of CO2 stage 1 we will also release upgraded data packs for HTTR, Greek, Med and BFTB."


I own HTTR and COTA, i skipped BFTB for many reasons, one was the missing mounted ops feature (which I consider to be absolutely essential for an East Front game), another one was the product policy.

Now, if I'd obtain CO2, would I - as proud owner of HTTR and COTA - have to pay for HTTR and COTA again?

My last question deals with the Soviet doctrine.
I've read most parts of a really good book (wish I could remember the title) about Soviet operational art of war, it contained maps and charts that displayed positioning/posture of all elements of a Rifle Corps/Army, even outlining the positions and assignments of artillery regiments and holding/exploitation forces, from 1939/41 to 1944 or 45. This "deep battle" doctrine did not work well in 1941, and not very well at Rzevh, when mobile forces were mishandled, or like at the Chir river, where they did not have sufficient troop transports / mech. vehicles, which led to the open German flanks being penetrated in small groups only, or to larger formations not having the mobility to outmanoeuvre the enemy, quite often. Cordination was lacking too.
But at some point in 1943, after changes regarding placement and posture, the Soviet machinery worked better. Finally, by 1944/45 the Soviets had mastered the operational art of war and deep thrust exploitations envisioned by the "deep battle" doctrine, with - as a part of it - the "wide-front-penetration"-efforts, in contrast to the German "Schwerpunkt"-doctrine.
Soviet operations and doctrine still depended on numbers, and quite some of their defensive / offensive placements/deployments were pretty inflexibe, but the combining of arms went way more smoothly.
I'd upload an example of positioning/posture of the several elements of a Rifle Corps/Army say in late 1942 or early 1943 and how that changed from say 1941 to late 1943, if I could remember that darn book's title.

Whatsoever, the accurate implementation of that doctrine will be essential if CO2's AI is supposed to render a historically accurate execution of battles on the Eastern Front.

Will this doctrine be implemented?


Sounds:

  • I could imagine that some radio chatter would bring quite some immersion, if your subordinates (and intelligence unit) report about (or if the front line units detect) enemy movement, or new enemy units not seen in the sector before. Also the line units' calls for artillery support could also be turned into sounds: Like "Requesting artillery support", or if it's really urgent "Requesting immediate artillery support, the enemy is about to breach the perimeter". Which of course, would then set this damn friendly AI arty to be set to NOT avoid friendly fire automatically, without having the poor player to uncheck that crap himself for every manual bombard mission (well, my experience with the BFTB demo, it might have been fixed by now), of course, unless the player doesn't want ANY on-call mission.
    The ongoing BING sounds when supplies don't make it to the unit in question, could also be replaced, at least partially. Maybe some ambush fire sounds, with your supply bub saying stuff like "CP Charlie this is Group Mule, we're under heavy fire, Mule 1-5 made it to Delta's stables, some other Mules broke their legs or died, 3 Mules are returning to CP", along with the system message that only 50% of the supplies made it to the unit in question.

    EDIT: If you open that part (the bing, or general ambience sounds) of the engine to modding, community members can create their own soundpacks.

    Just a basic idea.


Spotting:

  • If your units spot a large enemy unit, say an artillery unit with 1000 troops, in the open, deployed in the middle of nowhere with a clear LOS and no cover, means in the prairie, the Steppe....
    Intel will indicate that it's a BASE unit, a huge engineer unit, or an artillery unit (rarely). While the estimated number of troops is really irrelevant, the info that the unit has heavy weapons deployed and ready to fire is not. With a big supply train, vehicles and 12, 24 or even more heavy guns, a spotter/scout will be able to figure that it's an artillery unit, especially if the unit keeps firing at friendlies.
    In WW2, if I am not mistaken, tracking of artillery rounds/sources (either acoustically, with listening posts, or radar measures), was developed/tested in WW2, already. If I am not mistaken, the Germans used that to find enemy arty positions and to put counter-battery fire.
    So in my books, intel wasn't a total rough guesstimate, but also - especially with Russian and Allied aerial recon, and scouting and spotting on the ground - an art of combined recon efforts, that was able to at least identify what type of unit was on the ground.

    In COTA and also in BFTB, you have to get as close as 300-1000 meters, to get an "exact" indication of what type of unit you're facing. With German scissor scopes and fast scout vehicles, the Germans could at least scout the area 2-4 kilometers ahead, if it was like the Russian Steppe. Tiger tanks could fight targets at ranges of up to 2800-3000 meters, with their optics, if using a ballistic shell trajectory.
    And even with good binocs troops on the ground would be able to spot muzzle flash and gunpowder clouds 2 or 3 kilometers away.
    This should be considered for CO2.

    Btw, scout planes as offboard missions would be really nice, the Russians had way better/more intel than the Germans.

    Just my 2 cents

    < Message edited by GoodGuy -- 6/19/2013 10:36:28 AM >


    _____________________________

    "Aw Nuts"
    General Anthony McAuliffe
    December 22nd, 1944
    Bastogne

    ---
    "I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
    Tim Stone
    8th of August, 2006

    (in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 77
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/18/2013 9:29:29 PM   
Brindlebane


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Regarding sounds,all i'm requesting is some sort of background sound file that the game will play itself.Something with say blowing wind with distant explosions and gunfire,that sort of thing.It's possible to mod the current sound file,though i'm quite happy with them as they are.It's just not possible to add any background ambience.It's just an immersion thing.

With a background file in place in the sounds file.You could then add whatever sounds you like wether it's background music or explosions,church bells,wind,rain,distant gunfire etc etc.

Two quickies while i'm here,is it still possible to get hold of the 'hotspots' mod that Markshot posted,the links there,the file isn't.And i noticed in one post someone had changed the colour for the ingame icons.How would i go about doing that.

< Message edited by Brindlebane -- 6/18/2013 9:32:03 PM >

(in reply to GoodGuy)
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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/18/2013 10:18:57 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brindlebane

Regarding sounds,all i'm requesting is some sort of background sound file that the game will play itself.Something with say blowing wind with distant explosions and gunfire,that sort of thing.It's possible to mod the current sound file,though i'm quite happy with them as they are.It's just not possible to add any background ambience.It's just an immersion thing.

With a background file in place in the sounds file.You could then add whatever sounds you like wether it's background music or explosions,church bells,wind,rain,distant gunfire etc etc.

Two quickies while i'm here,is it still possible to get hold of the 'hotspots' mod that Markshot posted,the links there,the file isn't.And i noticed in one post someone had changed the colour for the ingame icons.How would i go about doing that.


My "background sounds" are generally works on the IPOd or I-Tunes from the Classic era.

Nothing like a little music to rein in decision making to the critical issues.


_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/22/2013 4:04:05 AM   
moet


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I am joining the conversation on the business model rather late. Sorry...

I like to buy all expansions or upgrades of the games I enjoy playing when I feel I get value for my money. Obviously this is highly subjective.

Let me give you an example of what I feel is a wrong business approach. Over the past 10 years, I bought every single game or expansion of Combat Mission. I like CMx1 and (a little less) CMx2. But I stopped paying when I saw Fortress Italy pretending to be a completely new game or at least sold as such. Too much for me. IMO, Fortress Italy is nothing more than an interesting expansion which, in addition, is partial (the core module being sold separately...).

If you build an original game and provide several scenarios with it, that is a complete game and can be sold as is. If you carry on developing the engine and apply it to a new theater of operation, this could be sold at the price of a new game, but the buyer needs to feel that the publisher did work hard on it. Then if you keep on offering new contents on various parts of the big theater, trying to give personality to a bunch of scenarios with roughly the same engine, this would not be sold at the price of a new game.

Now what can I say about the Command Ops business model presented here? I see an engine that will progress at a high cost ($30 each step more than twice a year!), but this is made up by the fact the player can wait, let's say, a year and a half before buying a quite improved engine at $30. This seems fair to me, but I will certainly wait a bit.

Then the $30 expansions... At first glance, it seems OK, but these expansions need to be substantial. A small pack of additional scenarios wouldn't be worth $30.

Comparing the price of a video game to the price of other products is not appropriate. A well know Quebec millionaire, who made his fortune with press media, used to criticized the lettuce price at his local grocery (I saw it with my own eyes), and I think he was right. Each thing belongs to its specific category. I am willing to pay $80 (may be more) for a very good video game (like BftB), but I won't pay $50, $30 or even $5 for a game or an expansion that doesn't appear to be worth it.


< Message edited by moet -- 6/22/2013 12:48:27 PM >

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 80
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/22/2013 7:28:08 PM   
jnpoint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

We plan to develop CO2 in stages, releasing updates after each stage. In particular we plan to:

  • develop CO2 stage 1 by the end of August. Release by end of September. This would comprise the following features:

    • Planning Graphics 1 - NAIs
    • Sequential Tasking
    • Triggers
    • Enhanced Map Drawing
    • Map Overlays
    • Enhanced Context Menu
    • New Unit Icons
    • Multiple Selection in OB Display



    We would appreciate your feedback on our plan.


Does that mean that the map will be more user friendly? I know, that many hard core players love the simplified map, but I like good looking graphics too. Not only gameplay, but the graphics and the sound/music is important too, I find. So?

(in reply to Arjuna)
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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/22/2013 9:45:38 PM   
Perturabo


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Will the new versions have higher system requirements or will they stay the same?

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Post #: 82
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/23/2013 9:22:59 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Will the new versions have higher system requirements or will they stay the same?

Hopefully the new version will have a lot higher system requirements!
I would like to see the interface dragged out of the stone age, and at lest cause my fan to change gear once in a while lol

(in reply to Perturabo)
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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/23/2013 3:12:54 PM   
rrbill

 

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My remarks meant to help the developers (Arjuna only?) to market the product. I am one who would not mind paying for a complete package at one time, forgetting initial purchase of BftB. Just let me know what I'm buying. Seems easier than teasing out multiple upgrades. An improved game engine? New scenarios? An Eastern Front game? Should be neat packages at decent prices.

Good luck.

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 84
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/24/2013 12:46:05 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Will the new versions have higher system requirements or will they stay the same?

Hopefully the new version will have a lot higher system requirements!
I would like to see the interface dragged out of the stone age, and at lest cause my fan to change gear once in a while lol

Hah. Hah. Hah. Very funny.

_____________________________

Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.

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Post #: 85
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/24/2013 4:51:06 AM   
DakaSha

 

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Ok I hate to sound stupid here.. but it really is a lot of money so I'm going to get this clarified.

I own none of your games. I am, however, interested in perhaps buying Command Ops: BFTB + both expansions.

Of course if I know that a 'new version' is being released fairly soon, then I'd just save my money, but if I understand correctly, BFTB and it's expansions will be compatible with the new version, and would need to be purchased anyways, correct?

Is this what you mean when you say our investment will endure?

This has probably been asked before (perhaps often) but for the asking price, I think it's warranted to be on the safe side.

(in reply to BROJD)
Post #: 86
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/24/2013 5:42:09 AM   
Arjuna


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As I mentioned in an earlier post we have received a lot of feedback for which we are very grateful. We need time to digest that and refine our planned approach. I would like to give you a more definitive statement but personal matters are restricting my time and focus at the moment. Once I fully recover from my operation I'll revisit this and clarify matters then.

In the meantime, no matter which way we go, we will aim to preserve your investment in our products. We have invested a lot of effort in developing tools to convert data. We will endeavour to convert all existing data packs with new releases of the engine. You may have to pay a small fee for that. I haven't yet done the sums nor made a final decision on that. So please feel confident in buying BFTB and the two ex packs currently available.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to DakaSha)
Post #: 87
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/24/2013 1:19:10 PM   
Rosmarus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

As I mentioned in an earlier post we have received a lot of feedback for which we are very grateful. We need time to digest that and refine our planned approach. I would like to give you a more definitive statement but personal matters are restricting my time and focus at the moment. Once I fully recover from my operation I'll revisit this and clarify matters then.

In the meantime, no matter which way we go, we will aim to preserve your investment in our products. We have invested a lot of effort in developing tools to convert data. We will endeavour to convert all existing data packs with new releases of the engine. You may have to pay a small fee for that. I haven't yet done the sums nor made a final decision on that. So please feel confident in buying BFTB and the two ex packs currently available.


I approve your business model and undestand that small game companies have it tough, but the bolded part. Not cool, not cool at all, not even on the idea level.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 88
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/24/2013 6:31:03 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosmarus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

As I mentioned in an earlier post we have received a lot of feedback for which we are very grateful. We need time to digest that and refine our planned approach. I would like to give you a more definitive statement but personal matters are restricting my time and focus at the moment. Once I fully recover from my operation I'll revisit this and clarify matters then.

In the meantime, no matter which way we go, we will aim to preserve your investment in our products. We have invested a lot of effort in developing tools to convert data. We will endeavour to convert all existing data packs with new releases of the engine. You may have to pay a small fee for that. I haven't yet done the sums nor made a final decision on that. So please feel confident in buying BFTB and the two ex packs currently available.


I approve your business model and undestand that small game companies have it tough, but the bolded part. Not cool, not cool at all, not even on the idea level.



I don't understand why you have an issue with that?
He is saying that as you have already invested into the product, by buying one of the expansions for example, that when the game engine is updated to Command Ops 2 there will be a small fee to update your existing scenarios, as they may not be compatible with the new engine.
I can't see any problem with that myself.

It will obviously require a fair bit of work to develop a program to do the converting.
You will still be able to play the scenarios on the old engine, so the decision will be yours on whether you think the small fee will be worth the update or not.

I for example never had the old Conquest of the Aegean, but I never begrudged the $10 discount to those that had already invested into the old version any more than they should object to the fee for the conversion of the scenarios to the new engine.

I don't think you should expect work to be done for free.

Its no different to trading in your old car for a better model to my mind?
The choice lays with you.

(in reply to Rosmarus)
Post #: 89
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 6/24/2013 7:49:17 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2203
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

As I mentioned in an earlier post we have received a lot of feedback for which we are very grateful. We need time to digest that and refine our planned approach. I would like to give you a more definitive statement but personal matters are restricting my time and focus at the moment. Once I fully recover from my operation I'll revisit this and clarify matters then.

In the meantime, no matter which way we go, we will aim to preserve your investment in our products. We have invested a lot of effort in developing tools to convert data. We will endeavour to convert all existing data packs with new releases of the engine. You may have to pay a small fee for that. I haven't yet done the sums nor made a final decision on that. So please feel confident in buying BFTB and the two ex packs currently available.

So, there won't be automatic conversion like with the patches? It wouldn't be good to put tens/hundreds of hour into making a mod, only to discover that it's impossible to play it with the update.

_____________________________

Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 90
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