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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan

 
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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/24/2013 4:19:56 AM   
macob30


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I read somewhere that West Wall will cover the period between Market Garden and Battle of the Bulge. I'm not familiar with battles that occurred during this time. What kind of scenario can we expect. Won't it be similar to BFTB and HTTR?

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/24/2013 5:25:14 AM   
Arjuna


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So far we have three scenarios:

Counterstroke in the Swamp and
Ordeal at Overloon Part 1 and 2.

Scenarios being developed:

Through the West Wall (US XIX Corps attack, Germany, Oct. 1944)
Encircling Aachen (1st Army encircles Aachen, Germany, Oct. 1944)

Scenarios being researched/ considered:

The Stolberg Corridor (1st Army reaches the Westwall, Sept. 1944)
Operation Clipper (British/ US attack near Geilenkirchen, Nov 1944)
Operation Queen (2 or 3 scenarios, Germany, Nov. 1944)
Operation Blackcock (Holland, Jan 1945)
German counterattack near Arnhem (Holland, Sep/Oct. 1944)
2nd Infantry Division attack Wahlerscheid (Germany, Nov/Dec 1944)


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Post #: 32
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 1:37:04 AM   
Tophat1812

 

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I'd vote for the Stolberg corridor myself,but thats just me.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 4:59:59 AM   
map66

 

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How will all these various for pay incremental updates affect multi-player? I.e., will someone who buys each update when released still be able to play someone who hypothetically like me might have the base game and Arnhem scenarios, but would then wait til the East Front data pack to get the cumulative updates? My guess is not, and I will throw it out as a concern, especially as the BFTB multiplayer community (or most any hard-core war game) is not enormous as far as I know, and I could see this incremental update policy fracturing it into virtual non-existence.

My five cents, for the above and other reasons, is actually that I'd be far happier to pay more for each data pack, while the base game gets updated automatically for those who have already invested in it. But I also understand the economics, and I obviously want what will allow innovative game designs to keep being made.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 5:16:23 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

How will all these various for pay incremental updates affect multi-player? I.e., will someone who buys each update when released still be able to play someone who hypothetically like me might have the base game and Arnhem scenarios, but would then wait til the East Front data pack to get the cumulative updates? My guess is not, and I will throw it out as a concern, especially as the BFTB multiplayer community (or most any hard-core war game) is not enormous as far as I know, and I could see this incremental update policy fracturing it into virtual non-existence.

My five cents, for the above and other reasons, is actually that I'd be far happier to pay more for each data pack, while the base game gets updated automatically for those who have already invested in it. But I also understand the economics, and I obviously want what will allow innovative game designs to keep being made.

Good points mapp66.

I'd be interested to hear from others about paying more for data packs but getting the engine updated for free. What price do reckon for the initial purchase of the engine and how much for a data pack.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 5:49:38 AM   
wodin


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Dave..doing it that way though is no different to how it sort of works now and you'll have think big gaps between each scenario pack so your not really getting the income as regularly as your proposal.

I'm also not sure how many play multiplayer either. Maybe they could have more than one copy on their PC one updated and another not, for multiplayer purposes..


I prefer the small cost but more often than large cost in one go to be honest.


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Post #: 36
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 6:00:34 AM   
map66

 

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I for one would be pretty happy with around a $50 price point for each data pack. Though I won't lie and will admit I'll probably purchase all the data packs eventually, I will also say that I'd be far less likely to purchase them on the spur of the moment if I also had to run through my head whether or at what point I wanted to upgrade the base game as well. Or put another way, I might well just hold off purchases until the two data packs I'm really looking forward to (East Front and France '40), while holding back on COTA etc---- I could just see myself thinking that in a few months I'd be sitting on the forums reading how great the next core engine update is and therefore not enjoying the scenarios I just bought without buying something else, so hence might delay the impulse purchase. That may not make any sense, but I bet I'm not the only one with that psychology.

Another issue worth raising is what if, for example, there is a core game engine problem that causes all 88 MM AA gun shells to turn into butterflys at 300 yards which is only discovered when core engine version 3 is released, albeit it affects all previous versions. Unfortunatly, this bug causes various COTA data pack scenarios to be rather unhistorical. Will patches be released for each previous core update to correct the bug? Will it only be for people who own the latest one, even if they have bought the data packs with the affected scenarios? Would anyone really even want to code 3-4 different updates? Just a thought, and again I also understand that patching and updating costs money, and there aren't easy answers.

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Post #: 37
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 6:35:00 AM   
wodin


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map66..if a bug was introduced with one of the upgrade packs and you never bought the upgrade then you wouldn't have the bug.

If it was a bug that was around in from a previous upgrade pack I'm sure it would be found before any more are released..and if the worse came to the worse I expect something like a hotfix would be done that was universal.

Also $50 for a scenario pack but free upgrades means thats less money coming in than the way forward thats been proposed..

Maybe lower the price of the core upgrades and increase the price of the scenario packs..that way I think it's more likely people will buy into the core upgrades rather than wait.

So $10 for the core upgrade and say $45 to $50 for the scenario packs (Increase the scenarios though to say 20 per pack. I was actually thinking I'd rather have more than 12 to 15 scenarios in a pack and I'd pay more for it)..comes to $55 to $60 of some bought the upgrade and the latest pack..

If the core was $10 I'd buy every one rather than wait for the one I want. It also keeps a flow of cash coming in that doing it for free wouldn't.


I'm sure you'd get alot more people buying into the upgrades each time they came out for the small sum of $10,,and I'm certain if a scenario pack had 20 scenarios and was $50 and people wnated those battles they'd have no problem paying it.

What do you think Dave?

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/25/2013 6:48:44 AM >


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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 7:00:14 AM   
map66

 

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Sorry Wodin, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I was speaking specifically about bugs in the core game engine that might be discovered later and have effects (hypothetically at least) on all previous scenarios from whatever data pack. It raises the question on whether each individual core game update would receive a hot fix to correct that bug, and the obvious fact that other changes in the code of the core game might (hypothetically again) make it hard to track down the bug in each previous core game release.

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Post #: 39
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/25/2013 9:31:17 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

So far we have three scenarios:

Counterstroke in the Swamp and
Ordeal at Overloon Part 1 and 2.


Interesting! Sounds like the battle in "the Peel" and Overloon is also one my favourites from past research.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Scenarios being developed:

Through the West Wall (US XIX Corps attack, Germany, Oct. 1944)
Encircling Aachen (1st Army encircles Aachen, Germany, Oct. 1944)

Scenarios being researched/ considered:

The Stolberg Corridor (1st Army reaches the Westwall, Sept. 1944)
Operation Clipper (British/ US attack near Geilenkirchen, Nov 1944)
Operation Queen (2 or 3 scenarios, Germany, Nov. 1944)
Operation Blackcock (Holland, Jan 1945)
German counterattack near Arnhem (Holland, Sep/Oct. 1944)
2nd Infantry Division attack Wahlerscheid (Germany, Nov/Dec 1944)



Another nice pack. So far there was little coverage of these battles in any wargame.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/26/2013 4:08:43 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: map66

Sorry Wodin, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I was speaking specifically about bugs in the core game engine that might be discovered later and have effects (hypothetically at least) on all previous scenarios from whatever data pack. It raises the question on whether each individual core game update would receive a hot fix to correct that bug, and the obvious fact that other changes in the code of the core game might (hypothetically again) make it hard to track down the bug in each previous core game release.


It all boils down to having 1) a good source control version system in place and 2) keeping separate branches for each update, "merging" bug fixes applicable to all branches simultaneously. Obviously, the number of branches one is tending to at the same time needs to be limited to a reasonable number. That would mean, eventually, discontinuing support for older "updates" as time goes on.

Regarding your questions about multiplayer and scenarios. That requires adding specific version metadata to the Command Ops engine data. Each scenario would prescribe a minimum build number. The engine would check that its current build number is greater or equal than the minimum build number in the scenario. The Command Ops engine uses a uniform schema to describe all data, which makes this a relatively speaking, straightforward thing to do.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 4/26/2013 4:09:44 AM >


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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/26/2013 6:52:29 AM   
RangerX3X


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Just my 2 cents (adjusted for inflation and prevailing exchange rates, minus nefarious internet tax): I have been buying video games for well over 25 years now and in that time my outlets have been streamlined to only two: Steam and Matrix Games. If a title is available on both, I buy it on Steam (i.e. Unity of Command, no offense).

I currently have HTTR (original), COTA, BFTB and the expansion HTTR. All are supreme values at what I paid for them through Matrix and I literally play all of them currently. While I had initial misgivings about pricing models when I came to Matrix (War in the East…gasp!!), I have mellowed a bit and have accepted as a consumer you get what you pay for (hey, quality costs – and is worth the $$$).

So (fan boy attacks aside), whatever Matrix rolls out for a COTA expansion for COBFTB or for CO2 I will be dusting off my credit card on day of release.

It’s worth it…just saying…



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Post #: 42
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/26/2013 8:33:51 AM   
phoenix

 

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Ditto, Ranger X3X.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/26/2013 1:19:35 PM   
Tophat1812

 

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Three fellow fanboys+............couldn't help myself...

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/27/2013 9:15:59 AM   
Rosmarus

 

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This has propably been asked to death, but are there any plans to include battles from the Finnish front to the EF scenario pack?

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/27/2013 10:11:13 AM   
wodin


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Hasn't been mentioned..but I'd love to see it..this would also give us the chance to do the winter war and some Leningrad battles..forest and ski troops..lovely

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/27/2013 11:11:00 PM   
Llyranor


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Sounds good.

Though, are there no plans re: implementing multiple players to one side?

My buddy and me really enjoying playing this multiplayer, but we aren't very PvP-focused, so haven't battled each other in over a year. Playing this 2vAI instead of 1v1 would really invigorate his desire to get back into this series. I'd guarantee I could make him get every single pack and upgrade if a co-op mode was implemented, since the core game system is so good.

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Post #: 47
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/27/2013 11:58:23 PM   
Arjuna


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Llyranor,

Team play has been a strong desire for me since we designed the game back in the 90s. The trouble is that to make it work we need to do a number of features first. We need passive and active planning graphics so the players can indicate intentions and set planning control measures like boundaries, limits of exploitation etc. We aslo need multiple AI threads - one per command/player - along with having separate intel databases per command/player. Note that from the above list we are steadily working towards it. By the end of this plan we should have some of the planning graphics and we will have gone halfway with multiple threads, having one per side. So we are getting there and this is a goal we will be driving towards.

< Message edited by Arjuna -- 4/27/2013 11:59:10 PM >


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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 4/28/2013 5:33:11 PM   
Llyranor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Llyranor,

Team play has been a strong desire for me since we designed the game back in the 90s. The trouble is that to make it work we need to do a number of features first. We need passive and active planning graphics so the players can indicate intentions and set planning control measures like boundaries, limits of exploitation etc. We aslo need multiple AI threads - one per command/player - along with having separate intel databases per command/player. Note that from the above list we are steadily working towards it. By the end of this plan we should have some of the planning graphics and we will have gone halfway with multiple threads, having one per side. So we are getting there and this is a goal we will be driving towards.

Thanks for the response. It's nice to see that you're taking steps towards making teamplay/co-op a possible eventuality. Teamplay would make this the ultimate game series for me.


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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/2/2013 2:03:19 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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So it's 30 dollars for each game/expansion pack and 30 dollars for each data pack? I'm so confused. Sorry i'm an idiot.


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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/2/2013 2:20:11 AM   
wodin


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It's abit confusing at the minute and nothing is definite.


You don't need to buy every upgrade..if you waited say and bought upgrade 4 it will have all the previous upgrade content in it..

So for those who can afford it they can buy each upgrade when it comes out and scenario pack and this will also help Panther to keep on developing..those who have to watch the pennies can be patient and buy the upgrade they want for that scenario pack their after..i.e wait for upgrade 4 then buy the EF pack.

Personally I like the idea of say £10 for each engine upgrade and say £35 for a pack of 20 scenarios..with this sort of pricing I'd buy each upgrade as it came out rather than waiting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heyhellowhatsnew

So it's 30 dollars for each game/expansion pack and 30 dollars for each data pack? I'm so confused. Sorry i'm an idiot.




< Message edited by wodin -- 5/2/2013 2:22:04 AM >


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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/2/2013 3:42:17 AM   
Arjuna


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I'm still pondering and haven't made a final decision on the pricing model. Right now though I'm just focussed on getting out the patch (uploading to matrix as I type) and then the Greek and Med packs.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/2/2013 3:45:38 AM   
wodin


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Cool. No rush mate.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/6/2013 7:37:22 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Yeah no rush but can you at least make some sort of chart or something with the pricing because I'm really confused. I want to support you guys of course but to be fair I need to know what I get for my bucks.

The OP is just really confusing to idiots like me who are huge fans of you and want to support you.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/6/2013 10:28:17 PM   
Rosmarus

 

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I can't guarantee that my interpretation is correct but I understood that Panther games aims to sell engine and data packs individually. So, you buy the CO2 engine and a data pack for it, both cost something around 30 bucks each. You get to update your existing games such as BFTB and HTTR to the new CO2 standard for free. I hope that's somewhat correct and helps you a bit.

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Post #: 55
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/7/2013 3:37:55 AM   
Arjuna


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Thanks for the feedback folks. I appreciate the advice that it's a tad complicated. We probably need to simplify matters. As I said few plans survive contact with reality for any length of time. So I will ponder some more and come back with a revised simpler plan. Stay tuned.

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/10/2013 2:25:01 PM   
Jafele


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An interesting addition would be email games, using turns system (ie one hour) to facilitate it. Guess this feature could attract more people than TCP/IP games.

< Message edited by Jafele -- 5/10/2013 2:36:48 PM >

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RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/11/2013 1:24:15 AM   
Arjuna


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Jafele, See stage #3 PBEM (Play by Email).

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Post #: 58
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/11/2013 2:07:24 AM   
Jafele


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Oh , Great!!

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Post #: 59
RE: Command Ops 2 (CO2) - The Plan - 5/14/2013 1:27:27 PM   
dazkaz15


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Wow!...

May I suggest a flow chart to make the pricing clearer Dave.
Maybe start with the BFTB>HTTR, with expansion purchased branches, and flow fourth from there

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