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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs

 
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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/28/2013 3:38:38 AM   
Arjuna


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Way back in RDOA days (2001) we released a demo but without tutorial movies to explain the game concept and how to play. We received a lot of feedback that people were confused. So that's why I made that remark back then. It's also why we invested a lot of time into developing the tutorial movies and released the BFTB demo. I am a firm believer that the BFTB demo has been a good move.

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Post #: 91
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/28/2013 4:13:55 AM   
Fascist Dog


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It's axiomatic that the more expensive something is, the less units you're going to sell. It's finding the right balance that's the tricky part and I've got no advice for you on that except to say that I would happily pay $80+ for a new title. But heck, I'm a big fan and I think this game is so good and will be well worth the price whatever it turns out to be.

Nowadays, you can go via the DLC route. Very unpopular with some but it makes a LOT of sense to me. I'd happily buy the titles with 8-10 scenarions and then pay $2.95 or $3.95 for each individual scenario as well. The customer gets to choose the missions he wants to play (I'm a collector so I'd buy them all regardless) and you keep the money coming in by releasing new content on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. Whatever you choose will be fine by me as long as you stay in business to make more from this exceptional game engine.

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Post #: 92
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/28/2013 4:16:17 AM   
Fascist Dog


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Oh, and confirm that it was the demo that sold the game to me as well. The best series of demos I've seen for a game ever. It's a complex beast as are most of the games I play nowadays and I prefer to climb the learning curve as quickly as possible so that I can enjoy playing the game. Demos like this really get you playing the game very quickly.

(in reply to Fascist Dog)
Post #: 93
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/28/2013 10:33:06 AM   
wodin


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Payong for individual scenarios then stops the campaign feature..not what I wnat..rather have a pack of them...usually if it's part of the war I'm interested I wnat as many as possible anyway.

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Post #: 94
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/28/2013 5:20:16 PM   
macob30


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Games at that price need a demo. There are expensive ones in the Matrix library that I decided not to buy because I couldn't try them. I discovered CO by searching a review for another game. By chance I read on Out of Eight that CO got the perfect score. Above all, it's the tutorial that tip the balance as I could see all the complexity and the potential of it.

Dave, I must admit that it took me a long time to decide if I would like CO or not. I bought this game 8 or 10 months ago, and many times I stop playing for weeks. A certain point, I thought it was maybe not my cup of tea after all. I believe it was because of its apparent passive nature. Many times I was watching the AI playing for me doing a better job, not knowing if and when I should take action. Still, CO stayed in my mind all along, so lately I decided to involve myself more in it. After reading threads and with the help of many people in this forum, I then realized how much more I had to be pro-active.

The verdict is without a doubt: a fine and great game.

I did Pattons' Favorite 3 times in row with a different approach and each time the AI response was completely different, always sending skirmishers trying to cut my supply lines. Among the other games I played, this one is where Fog of war and alternate days and nights has so much impact.

Many thanks, and I do hope you'll find the business development that will suit you and your customers.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 95
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/14/2013 12:49:16 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: macob30

Games at that price need a demo. There are expensive ones in the Matrix library that I decided not to buy because I couldn't try them. I discovered CO by searching a review for another game. By chance I read on Out of Eight that CO got the perfect score. Above all, it's the tutorial that tip the balance as I could see all the complexity and the potential of it.

Dave, I must admit that it took me a long time to decide if I would like CO or not. I bought this game 8 or 10 months ago, and many times I stop playing for weeks. A certain point, I thought it was maybe not my cup of tea after all. I believe it was because of its apparent passive nature. Many times I was watching the AI playing for me doing a better job, not knowing if and when I should take action. Still, CO stayed in my mind all along, so lately I decided to involve myself more in it. After reading threads and with the help of many people in this forum, I then realized how much more I had to be pro-active.

The verdict is without a doubt: a fine and great game.

I did Pattons' Favorite 3 times in row with a different approach and each time the AI response was completely different, always sending skirmishers trying to cut my supply lines. Among the other games I played, this one is where Fog of war and alternate days and nights has so much impact.

Many thanks, and I do hope you'll find the business development that will suit you and your customers.



I agree about the video tutorial being of great advertising value to the game.
Watching that, then seeing the kind of support that was on the forum really swung the deal for me, and I confess that I did research what I was buying into because of the high price.

I think you should get the same guy to do another video for any new material you put out as well.
He has a great Aussie accent, and is very easy to listen to

(in reply to macob30)
Post #: 96
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/14/2013 2:11:27 PM   
Floyd

 

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There is of course an alternative for the "pay for engine and pay for DLC" concept.
Eagle Dynamics, producer of flight sims (all standalone for long time), split their
product into two parts: an engine/core, called DCSworld, and so called modules, which add
more planes to the engine/core part:
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/world/
modules:
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/black_shark/

The core part can be downloaded for free, includes one plane for free, comes with full
documentation, acts as"the demo" and is even multiplayer compatibe/runnable. That is a very
big teaser and "lurks" many players to this flight sim. Updates to the engine are free,
bugfixes to modules are free, but added features to modules cost extra, depending on
volume and ownership (upgrade vs. new purchase).



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Post #: 97
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/14/2013 2:26:38 PM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15
I think you should get the same guy to do another video for any new material you put out as well.
He has a great Aussie accent, and is very easy to listen to

Well thanks. That was me. The trouble is that making those movies costs a lot of time. I spent well over two months on those movies.

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Post #: 98
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/14/2013 2:27:46 PM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Floyd

There is of course an alternative for the "pay for engine and pay for DLC" concept.
Eagle Dynamics, producer of flight sims (all standalone for long time), split their
product into two parts: an engine/core, called DCSworld, and so called modules, which add
more planes to the engine/core part:
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/world/
modules:
http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/black_shark/

The core part can be downloaded for free, includes one plane for free, comes with full
documentation, acts as"the demo" and is even multiplayer compatibe/runnable. That is a very
big teaser and "lurks" many players to this flight sim. Updates to the engine are free,
bugfixes to modules are free, but added features to modules cost extra, depending on
volume and ownership (upgrade vs. new purchase).

Thanks for that info.

_____________________________

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www.panthergames.com

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Post #: 99
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/14/2013 4:13:09 PM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna


quote:

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15
I think you should get the same guy to do another video for any new material you put out as well.
He has a great Aussie accent, and is very easy to listen to

Well thanks. That was me. The trouble is that making those movies costs a lot of time. I spent well over two months on those movies.


I was wondering

Well they are very professionally done, and have been a huge asset for the series in my opinion

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Post #: 100
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 12:42:33 AM   
Arjuna


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I agree they do help a lot of users come to grips with the engine and how to play. They also help market the product to prospective users. If I had more time I would like to do more videos focusing on providing tutorial walkthroughs of different scenarios. But doing these means not doing development work. In terms of resourcing it's far easier to find someone to make the videos than it is to find someone to do the AI development. If there are any movie makers out there who would like to volunteer some of their time to this end then I'd love to hear from you.

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Post #: 101
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 2:32:15 AM   
macob30


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That would be awesome! Especially if the videos would be more oriented toward real tactical concepts instead of just giving an "answer" to a scenario. My tactical knowledge is quite limited. Anyway, just daydreaming!

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Post #: 102
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 3:35:19 AM   
Arjuna


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Would you be willing to pay for such videos?

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Post #: 103
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 4:03:13 AM   
AndrewKurtz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Would you be willing to pay for such videos?


I would.

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Post #: 104
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 5:51:16 AM   
macob30


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Seriously? Like some kind of DLC or add-on to the game? Good question. If it's just like an AAR, I don't think so. But I could certainly be interested by videos about basic and advanced tactics (like a good chess book).

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Post #: 105
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 7:28:13 AM   
Bazza042

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Would you be willing to pay for such videos?


I would be prepared to pay for a video(s) that was similar in concept to a Strategy Guide which went a step beyond
the information in the current tutorials. Much of the information is available, in written form, through these Boards but needs some hard work to synthesize and the removal of 'advice' that is either wrong or has become outdated with the development of the engine. I really appreciated the written HttR guide. But I would not want a video guide that took each scenario, dissected it and gave 'answers' to how it should best be approached. The enjoyment in playing, stems in part from the unknown 'enemy'...

But surely the big problem with videos is that which you are already experiencing to a degree with the tutorials, they get out of date, as the engine changes, very quickly. Then you are into the difficulty of keeping multiple videos updated as the engine develops and people either do, or do not, upgrade.

I think a nice idea but fraught with difficulty.

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Post #: 106
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 8:21:54 AM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: macob30

My tactical knowledge is quite limited.



The internet is your friend: pick up a free copy of FM 3-90 'Tactics' here. Not all may be applicable to Command Ops, but most tactical principles are universal.


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Post #: 107
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 11:14:38 AM   
dazkaz15


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I have paid for DVD's on WW2 documentaries.

I have most of the World at War collection, Decisive Battles, and the Ancient World version of it.
Don't see any reason why I can not add to that collection.

Each new expansion could come with a video update as an optional extra, or standard written "Game manual" update for free.

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 5/15/2013 11:23:05 AM >

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Post #: 108
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 1:05:08 PM   
Txema

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Would you be willing to pay for such videos?


Yes, I would pay for such videos with tutorials and walkthroughs of different scenarios. I am always eager to learn on operational warfare !!!


Txema

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 3:07:23 PM   
sharper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Would you be willing to pay for such videos?


Yep

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Post #: 110
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 6:04:42 PM   
gunjunkie

 

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I don't really post on the forums, but I thought I'd weigh in on this.

First, I got into CO after stumbling across one of the tutorial videos on Youtube. I do own some other Matrix stuff, but had never really given CO a second look until the video. The real time aspects and advanced AI are big selling points, to me anyway. From an hours of fun/$ ratio, I'm more than happy with the purchases I've made from the CO series (BFTB, HTTR expansion, COTA, I'll re-buy that as well when it comes out)and have gotten well beyond the beer/movie/restaurant meal value threshold with them.

As to business model, I do think the initial $ investment is a turn off to some people, friends who I have tried to convince to play included. The gent who mentioned DCSWorld is spot on. Engine and maybe tutorial scenario(s) and tutorial vids for free, with content packs (maps, estabs and scenarios) easily accessible would, I think, be a good model for you, simply because giving people the chance to get hooked should have almost zero barrier to entry. The free to play model has worked extremely well in other segments of the industry. Its pretty easy to convince people to download and try something for free.

I would also pay for more in depth videos. Not AARs, like someone mentioned, but certainly for tactical and operational teachings.

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 8:02:05 PM   
phoenix

 

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I don't really know anything about business models etc, so haven't had anything at all to say on all this, especially since I'm a fan and will no doubt buy everything connected anyway. But I'm also a closet flightsimmer, and have spent a lot of money on Eagle Dynamics products. I bought KA50 and A10C before they developed this model (with DCS world), then had to go through a tortuous update process (and pay) to get onto their new model. Considering the amount I'd already paid, that was ridiculous. And I blow hot and cold with the products, mainly because the AI needs some serious work (though I've yet to down the AI P51 from my own P51, I do suspect that the AI is in a different world, somewhat...). But I do think their present model - for newcomers - is fantastic in terms of luring people in. Floyd is right. You get a lot for nothing, basically - enough to ensure you can really test the product and really do want more. The equivalent for CO would be giving away the engine plus one scenario for free (no time limits, no limits at all, in fact - though maybe do not include the scenmaker, mapmaker etc as these will enable people who can do things with them to enjoy too much to ever need to buy anything). Then charge for scenario packs. If DCS is anything to go by you can do this for all the BFTB scenarios too, for newcomers - ie divide them up to sell. For what it's worth - even though the game's USP is its AI and that's in the engine - I think you should concentrate really on deriving money from selling scenario packs, and I don't think they need to be huge. You could have broken COTA into 4, I think, for instance, and charged half the suggested price for each, and that would probably work better to attract people (even though it's the same at the end of the day if you buy all 4 as if you'd bought only 2 at your present price suggestions). For most people, especially coming new to it, it's the scenarios that look like the content, not the engine. And if you see a game with lots of different scenarios ranging over many different theatres then I think that's more likely to attract. If there are really big engine changes (as when DCS moved onto version'2', for example) then charge for them also, but only the same amount as for the scenario packs. I would think the cheaper the items people have to buy (or the cheaper they look) the more they are likely to buy and you could achieve that by releasing much smaller scenario packs more often for much less money each time. The romance and sell is in the scenarios, the theatre etc, not in the engine (even though that's the core of it, and the USP). I think - though like I said, I haven't a clue really.

I'd pay for 'tutorial' videos, but only if the price was sensible, by which I mean very cheap. They're not in the same category as scenario packs for me, or manuals even. $2 a vid would see me snapping it up. $5 would see me pausing. $10 and I'd say - nah, I can play the game and learn....

< Message edited by phoenix -- 5/15/2013 8:08:51 PM >

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 8:06:47 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

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quote:

I would also pay for more in depth videos. Not AARs, like someone mentioned, but certainly for tactical and operational teachings.


Exactly my thinking, and I;d be willing to pay 1/2 up-front or make a commitment so a huge amount of effort didn't go into a bunch of vapor promises.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 5/15/2013 8:07:47 PM >

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Post #: 113
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 8:45:01 PM   
Major SNAFU


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I would pay cash money for a video showing the in-game implementation of one (or more) of lieste's information and concept rich postings on topics like aligning the LOC with supply, orientating supply and LOC with MLRs, etc.

I read and re-read his posts, (all saved in a word document) trying to visualize what he is recommending and sometimes I just hit the wall. I sort of "get it", but a few pictures would really clarify things.

On the DLC topic - I am not a big fan of this. It is another hurdle to go through and I despise Steam and all other incarnations of the management of DLC. I prefer a self-contained install file, that requires no connectivity at all, for any reason. I am often in places where connectivity is not possible - but I would still like to be able to fire up BFTB. If fact, at times I go out of my way to be in areas of zero connectivity so that I can focus on BFTB.

I will say that I was an early adopter of the DCS model. I own a number of their products, and only computer hardware limitations prevent me from owning them all (my wife being the wonderful, indulging person that she is). I believe that shops like Dave's and DCS deserve my vote for their quality products and dedication to the genre. For "votes" read "dollars"

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/15/2013 9:30:09 PM   
dazkaz15


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This is for anyone else wondering what DCS Stands for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Combat_Simulator

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Post #: 115
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/16/2013 1:06:42 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Major SNAFU
On the DLC topic - I am not a big fan of this. It is another hurdle to go through and I despise Steam and all other incarnations of the management of DLC. I prefer a self-contained install file, that requires no connectivity at all, for any reason. I am often in places where connectivity is not possible - but I would still like to be able to fire up BFTB. If fact, at times I go out of my way to be in areas of zero connectivity so that I can focus on BFTB.


Steam doesn't require exclusivity from developers, so peeps can (and do) setup their own shop, and steam keys can be generated at no cost. Nonetheless, it requires some work to be done by the developers :)

(in reply to Major SNAFU)
Post #: 116
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/17/2013 4:10:12 AM   
macob30


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quote:

The internet is your friend: pick up a free copy of FM 3-90 'Tactics' here.


Thanks! Downloaded into my iPad. I can't believe this stuff is free and available to the public.

I'm currently reading the HTTR guide which has interesting sections about artillery, recon, etc.
After that, I'll have a lot of material to put into practice. Then, I'll have to lay hands on the classified tactics manual.

quote:

Not all may be applicable to Command Ops, but most tactical principles are universal.

I consider CO to be closer to a battle simulator than to a game. I'm sure it's going to be helpful.

(in reply to Ramses)
Post #: 117
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/17/2013 9:07:46 AM   
Agent S


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Perhaps the video tutorials could be run similar to some kickstarter sliding scales. Where the funding level reached determines the range and depth of videos produced/ released.

(in reply to macob30)
Post #: 118
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/29/2013 11:55:15 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

I'm hoping to flesh out the Med pack with three other user designed scenarios. I have emailed the users seeking their permission to include the scenarios for a small royalty. So hopefully I will hear back from them shortly. If you know these users, please let them know in case the email I have is an old one. The three scenarios are:

  • Leros - by Hoplomachia
  • Cyprus - by Judge Dredd
  • Battleaxe/Brevity - by Prince of Eckmuhl


With these three, there will be 15 scenarios in the Med pack.


Hi Dave,

I never received any email, and only just now stumbled across your message above.

You're welcome to the scenarios, BTW. assuming the price is right!

If you'll PM me an upload addy, I'll send them to you.

-Moe

PS: What happened to Mike's Bir el Gubi scenario?

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Post #: 119
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 5/30/2013 1:00:40 PM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

PS: What happened to Mike's Bir el Gubi scenario?

It will be in the Med Pack. It is called Trial by Combat.


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