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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs

 
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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 12:21:13 AM   
thewood1

 

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All I have to say is if you don't want feedback on an announcement, make it a real announcement and lock it. The only other option is to delete posts you don't like.

As to pricing; my main concern is the significant increase in pricing on Matrix games. Even Matrix admits they are in a niche market. Making the barrier to entry higher and higher with no demo slowly tightens the noose on the market. Only someone tightly tied to Matrix will spend the time to research a game and then take a $70 risk. Every time you release a data pack, you might catch the interest of a semi-casual wargamer. But it must be quite a shock to realize they need to drop $100 to play Market Garden on this engine. What you should do is drop the engine price each time you release a datapack. Once someone has committed to the engine, you have a much better chance of selling data packs. But instead of trying to draw more people in to spread the development cost burden, the easy way is being taken by raising the price as the community shrinks. One business model is positioning for growth, the other is positioning for a slow spiral down. That is a business model I have seen and been involved in dozens of times and it will not succeed in the long run, no matter how special wargamers tink they are.

And what happens on these forums is that higher barrier to entry for a three year old engine slowly pushes any balancing feedback out of the forum and strangles diverse opinions as only people truly dedicated to the game stay on. Its the same issue BFC had with CMSF in the end. Now you end up with a mob mentality that seems to be drawing in the developer as well. Again, very similar to BFC.

But obviously, no one here is looking for a diverse opinion in this little (and it appears to be little) club. So my rant is most likely moot. I hope that this meets the threshold for constructive feedback.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 31
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 12:55:57 AM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

All I have to say is if you don't want feedback on an announcement, make it a real announcement and lock it. The only other option is to delete posts you don't like.

As to pricing; my main concern is the significant increase in pricing on Matrix games. Even Matrix admits they are in a niche market. Making the barrier to entry higher and higher with no demo slowly tightens the noose on the market. Only someone tightly tied to Matrix will spend the time to research a game and then take a $70 risk. Every time you release a data pack, you might catch the interest of a semi-casual wargamer. But it must be quite a shock to realize they need to drop $100 to play Market Garden on this engine. What you should do is drop the engine price each time you release a datapack. Once someone has committed to the engine, you have a much better chance of selling data packs. But instead of trying to draw more people in to spread the development cost burden, the easy way is being taken by raising the price as the community shrinks. One business model is positioning for growth, the other is positioning for a slow spiral down. That is a business model I have seen and been involved in dozens of times and it will not succeed in the long run, no matter how special wargamers tink they are.

And what happens on these forums is that higher barrier to entry for a three year old engine slowly pushes any balancing feedback out of the forum and strangles diverse opinions as only people truly dedicated to the game stay on. Its the same issue BFC had with CMSF in the end. Now you end up with a mob mentality that seems to be drawing in the developer as well. Again, very similar to BFC.

But obviously, no one here is looking for a diverse opinion in this little (and it appears to be little) club. So my rant is most likely moot. I hope that this meets the threshold for constructive feedback.


Your "rant" is important to the people who want to market their products to customers such as you.

To others, who never ask anyway, it doesn't matter.


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Post #: 32
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 1:18:25 AM   
thewood1

 

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That's because I am one of those on the edge of this little market. I consider myself a pretty serious wargamer. But I am also pretty selective where I spend my time and money. It's people like me that not only get a little turned off on the entry point to the game, but also to the cloistered and hermetically sealed environment that games like this generate in their fan base and forums. I would think that at a minimum, Matrix would like to catch edge people like. Frankly if I hadn't already spent a wad on this engine, I would be much more inclined to invest a little more.

Now seeing where its going, I'll still noodle around with it, but will invest my money elsewhere where I can maybe get more time for the money...Actung Panzer comes to mind. Now there is a great example; I spent $6 on the engine and over $70 since then. I also plan on eventually buying the two new campaigns...another $40. I was only somewhat interested until I saw the sale for the engine for $6 and thought, "what the hell". I did exactly the same thing with Rise of Flight. Only partially interested until I got the engine and a few planes for $10. I have easily spent $120 over the last year since then. That is the model of companies wanting to grow, not just hold on by their fingernails and continue stroking a few diehard fans.

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 33
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 1:31:37 AM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

All I have to say is if you don't want feedback on an announcement, make it a real announcement and lock it. The only other option is to delete posts you don't like.

As to pricing; my main concern is the significant increase in pricing on Matrix games. Even Matrix admits they are in a niche market. Making the barrier to entry higher and higher with no demo slowly tightens the noose on the market. Only someone tightly tied to Matrix will spend the time to research a game and then take a $70 risk. Every time you release a data pack, you might catch the interest of a semi-casual wargamer. But it must be quite a shock to realize they need to drop $100 to play Market Garden on this engine. What you should do is drop the engine price each time you release a datapack. Once someone has committed to the engine, you have a much better chance of selling data packs. But instead of trying to draw more people in to spread the development cost burden, the easy way is being taken by raising the price as the community shrinks. One business model is positioning for growth, the other is positioning for a slow spiral down. That is a business model I have seen and been involved in dozens of times and it will not succeed in the long run, no matter how special wargamers tink they are.

And what happens on these forums is that higher barrier to entry for a three year old engine slowly pushes any balancing feedback out of the forum and strangles diverse opinions as only people truly dedicated to the game stay on. Its the same issue BFC had with CMSF in the end. Now you end up with a mob mentality that seems to be drawing in the developer as well. Again, very similar to BFC.

But obviously, no one here is looking for a diverse opinion in this little (and it appears to be little) club. So my rant is most likely moot. I hope that this meets the threshold for constructive feedback.


thewood1,

Thank you for responding. Rest assured I am looking for diverse opinion.

I too share your concerns at the ever increasing price of products and the effect that it will eventually have on the market size. In fact the new model we are trying to put together is endeavouring to lower the cost of entry for new customer. By decoupling the engine from the data new customers can get into the system for the price of an engine upgrade ($30) and the price of one data pack ($30). When you buy an engine pack you get the latest version of the engine with all previous features from all previous upgrades rolled into it.

This new approach also means that existing customers can add to their experience as and when they choose. They can get enhanced features for the cost of $30 or they can get additional data for the cost of $30. Some data packs will require the latest engine upgrade. But even then the price for what would otherwise have been a new game is $60. Remember that previously we sold BFTB for $80.

I support what phoenix wisely said in his earlier post. I want to encourage everyone to have their say here and to be able to do so without being ridiculed. Arguments can be challenged but each person is entitled to their own subjective assessments about what they see as value for money given their circumstances.

I also support Jim's comments about the fact that we have to charge a price that will enable us to survive in business. It's always a difficult balancing act.

So thewood1 what pricing policy would you recommend?



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Post #: 34
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 1:33:00 AM   
thewood1

 

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It's in my post

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Post #: 35
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 1:35:31 AM   
Arjuna


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Yeh just saw it. Thanks.

So are you happy to pay $10 for the engine but $40 for data packs?

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Post #: 36
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:00:02 AM   
thewood1

 

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Just like with those games...depends on the data pack. 10 scenarios, probably not. I would easily drop $15 on a map/scenario pack. Maybe even $20. But don't go the BFC route... Don't create DLC so large and cumbersome that it takes a year to get out and shocks people with the cost. Create smaller scenario sets with only the units need to play those scenarios and get them out fast; at most monthly. Release features in feature packs that do things like "Enhanced AI", Enhanced UI", Campaign, "Enhanced scenario builder", "Enhanced order system". Offer a Pro bundle or themed scenarios in penny packs, offer a starter kit, Offer new nations, Offer higher resolution.

But two huge caveats here...is your engine built to support the above and is Matrix's distribution system capable of supporting it.

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Post #: 37
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:06:33 AM   
Arjuna


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First off, data packs would invariably contain maps and scenarios and in many they would contain estabs as well.

I agree with not creating DLC that is too large. That's why my original concept was for between 10 and 12 scenarios (which would include say 3 or 4 maps).

Our engine can handle this but the distribution system needs to be looked into.

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Post #: 38
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:16:26 AM   
thewood1

 

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See my PM...let's go offline with this if you want.

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Post #: 39
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 7:12:38 AM   
Bazza042

 

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quote:

And what happens on these forums is that higher barrier to entry for a three year old engine slowly pushes any balancing feedback out of the forum and strangles diverse opinions as only people truly dedicated to the game stay on. Its the same issue BFC had with CMSF in the end. Now you end up with a mob mentality that seems to be drawing in the developer as well. Again, very similar to BFC.


Whilst I am broadly in sympathy with the thrust of your argument I am mildly amused that you feel you have to insult the participants of this forum ('mob mentality': drawing in the developer' etc.) in order to make your point: especially as you rapidly took umbrage at the 'rolling eyes'. I am, though, unclear why the fact that is a 'three year old game' has any bearing on your case. Whilst I agree that most three year old games could be categorised as 'abandonware' this can hardly be considered the case for this series.

Your point over the pricing policy, especially for new purchasers, is well made although again I am unclear why you personally view a 'sunk cost' as a reason not to purchase upgrades. I understand the argument that you don't purchase upgrades, because - for instance - you don't like the game for whatever reason, there are better 'bang for the buck' games out there, or you have no interest in, say, the Eastern Front, but 'sunk cost' is hardly a rational reason....

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 40
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 7:21:10 AM   
Bazza042

 

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My apologies, Jim,

The above was directed at thewood1, rather than yourself:
I guess I cut and pasted his comments from your post, rather than
his original post.

The older I get......

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Post #: 41
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 8:59:41 AM   
loyalcitizen


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<re-asking>

How does one show that they previously bought COTA? Do I have to have it already downloaded to update? Because I don't have it downloaded.
My old computer and old disks have been lost to the ages (I have moved several times).

I've bought every release so far including RDOA. All I have on my computer is the new Command Ops stuff (Bulge and HTTR).

< Message edited by loyalcitizen -- 4/25/2013 9:00:19 AM >

(in reply to Bazza042)
Post #: 42
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 10:33:26 AM   
Arjuna


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You will need a valid serial number.

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Post #: 43
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 11:29:03 AM   
sharper


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I paid £150! for War in Russia on my old apple. I wonder what that would be into £ now.

I don't understand all the bellyaching over price.

For me
Engine + Scenarios up to £200
Scenario packs £50

I/we don't buy them every month.

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Post #: 44
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 12:25:07 PM   
wodin


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I don't see any belly aching as such..just a civilized discussion. Another reason I'd never mention the price here again is because if you do you get jumped on and called a whiner..belly aching..want something for nothing...cheapskate..etc etc.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/25/2013 12:26:47 PM >


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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 12:39:52 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bazza042

My apologies, Jim,

The above was directed at thewood1, rather than yourself:
I guess I cut and pasted his comments from your post, rather than
his original post.

The older I get......



No problem.

There are a couple of times where I've been a bit sarcastic and probably deserved a reminder to be more polite.

Lots of the discussion here is revolving around individuals venting about price but not understanding pressures a business faces in trying to set an acceptable price for its services while also addressing the costs it bears to offer those services.






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Post #: 46
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 12:40:05 PM   
sharper


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I know bellyaching when I read it.

If you don't like the price then fine don't buy it.

I was thinking of getting an email of to BMW and complaining about he price of their new 5 series! but then I thought....



Dave has set his price and that should be the end of the matter.


< Message edited by sharper -- 4/25/2013 12:44:23 PM >


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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 12:49:56 PM   
sharper


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ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah



Lots of the discussion here is revolving around individuals venting about price but not understanding pressures a business faces in trying to set an acceptable price for its services while also addressing the costs it bears to offer those services.







This spot on

< Message edited by sharper -- 4/25/2013 12:52:42 PM >


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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 1:24:26 PM   
Tophat1812

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sharper

I know bellyaching when I read it.

If you don't like the price then fine don't buy it.

I was thinking of getting an email of to BMW and complaining about he price of their new 5 series! but then I thought....



Dave has set his price and that should be the end of the matter.




Actually it still looks to me as Dave is gathering input and has not set things in stone regarding how the pricing will finally be laid out. But BftB was not released as a cheap or value game to begin with and has had much work under the hood done to patch it to its current level. This isn't Dave's primary business and he's certainly not getting rich off this,something to keep in mind.

(in reply to sharper)
Post #: 49
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:04:13 PM   
Arjuna


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Well right now with the cutbacks in Defence spending this is my main business. But yes I am definitely not getting rich off it. And yes I am still gathering input, mulling over options and have definitely not set things in stone.

I do want to hear peoples feedback and I would prefer if people stop using emotive terms like "bellyaching". It is not helping. Surely we can be mature enough to appreciate that we are all different and have different perspectives. Such diversity is a strength so long as their is tolerance and respect. There endeth the lesson.

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Post #: 50
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:23:36 PM   
sharper


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Emotive! moi!

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:24:04 PM   
Ramses


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I bounce between 2 extremes regarding this issue:

If I look at it from an emotional point of view, I feel that € 60,- for a couple of dusted-off old scenario's is a steep price. I convince myself that I don't need them, because of the price and the fact that the Med theater doesn't interest me all that much.

If I look at it from a rational perspective, i know that they have to charge money in order to keep themselves in business. I also know for sure that I will enjoy playing the game, although the Med still doesn't interest me all that much.

I'll probably end up buying everything that is released.

I do think that people in these forums should be a little more openminded to different opinions being voiced here. It's not like we are talking a life and death issue. What is steep money for one, might be mere change for someone else.

Panther games is served best by the uncensored opinions of what people are willing to spend imho, in the long run we all are...........

< Message edited by Ramses -- 4/25/2013 2:37:50 PM >

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 2:48:42 PM   
wodin


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I'm used to being called names on here...water of a ducks back.

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 3:15:25 PM   
thewood1

 

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The most amusing thing in this thread is that a some are validating my comments about the forum...and probably don't realize it.

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RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 3:29:05 PM   
Tophat1812

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Well right now with the cutbacks in Defence spending this is my main business. But yes I am definitely not getting rich off it. And yes I am still gathering input, mulling over options and have definitely not set things in stone.

I do want to hear peoples feedback and I would prefer if people stop using emotive terms like "bellyaching". It is not helping. Surely we can be mature enough to appreciate that we are all different and have different perspectives. Such diversity is a strength so long as their is tolerance and respect. There endeth the lesson.


Then set a price on the product that you can sustain your business at. Just by looking through the forum people can see you support your product,which is a major selling point in my mind.

I liked the way you initially posted your pricing rationale myself. And if you can't stay in business we'll never get the Command Ops 2 anyway or the support needed to put polish on the product.

As for maturity and conduct if all we are worried about is someone saying 'bellyaching" than we have no worries.Take solace in the fact people are motivated enough to make the arguments,points,jibes,claims of martyrdom and spews as it shows they are interested in your product.

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 55
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 3:33:03 PM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

The most amusing thing in this thread is that a some are validating my comments about the forum...and probably don't realize it.


I do realize it, but I don't see the 'amusing' part of it. To each his own I guess.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 56
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 3:40:03 PM   
wodin


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Tophat the problem is when people are just shot down with names mild as they are then you'll never hear another side of the argument nor hear other peoples views as people will be to scared to open up as they know they'll come in for stick. The sad thing is it's those who are fine with the price of games here (Slitherine) in general that seem to resort to name calling. It also causes rifts between people who really share a hobby and should get on and share their enthusiasm for the genre..

I've no idea why those who are fine with a pricing policy would get so wound up because others may for see problems with it.

Anyway I'm certainly saying nothing remotely inflammatory on this particular forum. It's tough when I see someone with a reasonable stance get abit of stick and I can't step up to defend them. Still I'm trying;)

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Post #: 57
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 5:11:07 PM   
sharper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Tophat the problem is when people are just shot down with names mild as they are then you'll never hear another side of the argument nor hear other peoples views as people will be to scared to open up as they know they'll come in for stick. The sad thing is it's those who are fine with the price of games here (Slitherine) in general that seem to resort to name calling. It also causes rifts between people who really share a hobby and should get on and share their enthusiasm for the genre..

I've no idea why those who are fine with a pricing policy would get so wound up because others may for see problems with it.

Anyway I'm certainly saying nothing remotely inflammatory on this particular forum. It's tough when I see someone with a reasonable stance get abit of stick and I can't step up to defend them. Still I'm trying;)


Because the vast majority 'quietly' save up our money till we can afford to buy said product at the price it is sold at, or pass.
I get slightly miffed when 'some' use "reasoned" or "other side" of the said argument as a smoke screen to attempt to eke a lower price from the likes of small and affable manufacturers like Panther(Dave).

I must go now - I'm busy running away from Gerry in the race to Bastogne



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Post #: 58
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 5:50:32 PM   
wodin


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Sharper and how do you know thats there sole motive or a smoke screen. I think thats your own paranoia kicking in, because when it comes to myself there is only one person who truly knows why I say and do things and thats me and so I know your way off the mark if you think thats what I'm doing.. I believe others just may think along similar lines as myself. Funny enough I really don't think the people here are that mercenary. It's a rather poor view you have of certain people. I think the main worry isn't about their own wallet but about the future of wargaming and actually wanting the developers to keep making games. Why anyone would bang on about the price just to get it cheaper if they can even though they know it may put the developer out of business I've no idea and I truly have more faith in people here and their motives. Maybe there are people who think because Steam sells game for a few pounds then everywhere should charge the same..I don't think that way at all. I actually want the games to be a success and sell as many as possible and also give the developer a good return for their hardwork and even better if new people buy into the genre or series or whatever it is.

Maybe because my motives are actually honorable I then can't understand why it would bother people. As I certainly wouldn't get wound up about. As long as the game is good..it sells well...and we can look forward to more thats all I'd be bothered about and is all I'm really bothered about when it comes to this hobby\genre both games and boardgames etc.

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Post #: 59
RE: COTA to be split into two data packs - 4/25/2013 6:05:47 PM   
thewood1

 

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I am not sure I understand how to give feedback then? Is the only feedback that is acceptable a positive vote of yes please do it.

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Post #: 60
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