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It's possible to drop supplies together with paratroops?

 
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It's possible to drop supplies together with paratroops? - 4/19/2013 3:55:08 PM   
MrBlizzard


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My paratroops (I'm playing Jap but I think is the same for Allies) always attack without any supplies.
When I plan an attack and give orders to transport planes to carry paras to the target they never drop supplies until the unit is completely delivered; because of the big number of squads and devices in a para regiment is almost impossible to drop it in a single turn (you need almost 100 planes) so no supplies are transported at all. More I'm not able to give orders to another transport squadrons to drop only supplies 'cause the target is in enemy hands and the game says "hey you can't transport to enemy held airports, you have no units there"
Almost always the attack is ineffective and a failure if there is a minimum defence at the target. My paras failed also againsta simple base force with no AV...(so just against the support squads counting a quarter...), a shame, an elite unit beaten by mechanics.
And the turn after the failed drop I've got a unit encircled in enemy land with no supplies at all!!
Have you got some advices? What are your experiences with para drops? Have you ever been succesfull?

Thanks
Blizzard

Edit: some translation mistakes and typos


< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 4/19/2013 7:46:25 PM >
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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 7:59:47 PM   
geofflambert


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So do your beach landings. The supply number registers the amount you need for tomorrow, not today. Your transport planes will drop supplies until you tell them to stop.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 8:14:59 PM   
dr.hal


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In truth MrBlizzard I would submit that a parachute unit is not designed or equipped to drop and fight. Remember that they land with their ammo and other equipment on them. That might be enough for one day's hard fighting, but after that it is good luck or goodbye! Even rations were limited. My understanding it that their use is best behind the lines, not atop of them, to interdict resupply and other reequip routes (rails, roads, bridges) much like what happened in many cases in Europe. If you get enough aircraft do drop a few divisions, that's another matter (Market Garden comes to mind) but one should not expect too much from these troops, no matter how elite their status. Hal

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 8:58:50 PM   
Yaab


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What about paradroping into a non-base hex adjacent to the enemy base? If there are no enemy units there you own the hex and the supplies can be dropped.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 9:48:17 PM   
AW1Steve


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You could always drop supplies from bombers. That was frequently the means of support for isolated troops (like in Burma).

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 11:17:34 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

In truth MrBlizzard I would submit that a parachute unit is not designed or equipped to drop and fight. Remember that they land with their ammo and other equipment on them. That might be enough for one day's hard fighting, but after that it is good luck or goodbye! Even rations were limited. My understanding it that their use is best behind the lines, not atop of them, to interdict resupply and other reequip routes (rails, roads, bridges) much like what happened in many cases in Europe. If you get enough aircraft do drop a few divisions, that's another matter (Market Garden comes to mind) but one should not expect too much from these troops, no matter how elite their status. Hal


Oh yes, Of course I don't demand to make some big operations like the conquest of Creta or Market-Garden; I'd just like to repeat at least what Japan paras could do in WWII , e.g. they conquered the oilfield of Palembang, indeed not much defended...)

Please have a look here at what happened when I tried to conquer Kuala Lumpur almost undefended (against only a base force low in morale and in strategic moving in the first days of my campaign). A great day for cooks and truck drivers!

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 539 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 36

Defending force 2841 troops, 30 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 8

Japanese adjusted assault: 25

Allied adjusted defense: 25

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), op mode(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)


Allied ground losses:
24 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Assaulting units:
1st Raiding Rgt /1

Defending units:
109th RN Base Force

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 11:19:21 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

What about paradroping into a non-base hex adjacent to the enemy base? If there are no enemy units there you own the hex and the supplies can be dropped.


I'm afraid you can't , in last official patch you can only drop paras on bases

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/19/2013 11:36:14 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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5 to 1
it is still way too many "cooks and truck driver" to overcome; paratroops are good soldiers but not supermen. If anything 1-to-1 odds were good

moreover the battle of palembang was a combined air and naval assault,


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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 12:55:23 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

5 to 1
it is still way too many "cooks and truck driver" to overcome; paratroops are good soldiers but not supermen. If anything 1-to-1 odds were good

moreover the battle of palembang was a combined air and naval assault,



Cooks and truck drivers with 30 arty pieces.

A "base force" can be clerks, or it can be a pretty fierce combat force, depending on side, nation, and era. A lot of the Allied varieties have infantry squads as a device.

Also the defenders got the terrain bonus for a city, and the attacker got it against him. Paras are great tools for taking open bases behind the lines, but I wouldn't expect them to slug it out against arty.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/20/2013 12:56:19 AM >


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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 2:00:00 AM   
btbw

 

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Who said paratroopers drop without supply?

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 3:10:59 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

Who said paratroopers drop without supply?


Not me.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 3:52:44 AM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Not me.

Smart, because paratroops drop with supply for one day battle.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 7:53:43 AM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

5 to 1
it is still way too many "cooks and truck driver" to overcome; paratroops are good soldiers but not supermen. If anything 1-to-1 odds were good

moreover the battle of palembang was a combined air and naval assault,



you're right paras were simply outnumbered 'cause all other parameters were good, except terrain...

Does anybody know if only support squads are counted in defence or also naval support and aviation support squads?

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 4/20/2013 8:17:50 AM >

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 8:09:47 AM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Cooks and truck drivers with 30 arty pieces.

A "base force" can be clerks, or it can be a pretty fierce combat force, depending on side, nation, and era. A lot of the Allied varieties have infantry squads as a device.

Also the defenders got the terrain bonus for a city, and the attacker got it against him. Paras are great tools for taking open bases behind the lines, but I wouldn't expect them to slug it out against arty.


You're right terrain bonus was against us, I used to think that terrain shouldn't count in para assault but it seems I was wrong (Just think to Eben_Emael fortress conquered by a German paratroop commando in the first days of war against Belgium; that fortress was on the top of a steep rock and tha paras just dropped on the roof of it, factor terrain didn't count all in that case)
Those 30 arty were indeed 28 small-medium caliber AA guns and two 6"CD guns; as far as I know AA guns shouldn't affect land combat, right?
Here are those scary defenders:

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 8:14:04 AM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Not me.

Smart, because paratroops drop with supply for one day battle.



Ohhh the first day supply is included for free!!!! And from the second you can send it by transports or bombers. My question has been answered Thanks

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 10:10:14 AM   
Yaab


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109th RN Base Force is quite a big unit. 3000 men in support roles. Guess they picked up kitchen knifes and forks and just "human-waved" the paras.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 11:21:54 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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AA guns and machineguns should have inherent defensive values. The bofors 40mm is called an "anti-aircraft/multi-purpose autocannon"

I definitively would not like to charge into one with only a bolt action rifle

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 4/20/2013 11:22:32 AM >


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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 11:22:16 AM   
Sardaukar


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There is also infantry (I.S.F/Militia).

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 11:41:16 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

Those 30 arty were indeed 28 small-medium caliber AA guns and two 6"CD guns; as far as I know AA guns shouldn't affect land combat, right?


If they were meant to shoot people they should have been designated as anti-people guns, right?


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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 12:39:40 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Not me.

Smart, because paratroops drop with supply for one day battle.



Ohhh the first day supply is included for free!!!! And from the second you can send it by transports or bombers. My question has been answered Thanks



there is no supply for free, there is no suppply at all, which means you were spot on with your observation. I've been saying this for years already. If I use 300 C-47 to drop a single US para unit then the unit will not have any supply until at least one squad is already there and the next day supply goes in too.

Some tried to tell me the supply is used up in a single day, yeah, 1 para unit uses more supply in a day than a division. You can use a thousand transports and the unit won't have any supply the first day.

And before someone brings it up, I don't give a damn about a "no (-) for supply in the combat report" because those (+) and (-) are just fubar most of the time anyway.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 4:36:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

109th RN Base Force is quite a big unit. 3000 men in support roles. Guess they picked up kitchen knifes and forks and just "human-waved" the paras.


Seven squads of infantry.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 4:38:31 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

You're right terrain bonus was against us, I used to think that terrain shouldn't count in para assault but it seems I was wrong (Just think to Eben_Emael fortress conquered by a German paratroop commando in the first days of war against Belgium; that fortress was on the top of a steep rock and tha paras just dropped on the roof of it, factor terrain didn't count all in that case)



I can offer far more examples of cases where paras had to hump overland and terrain was a key factor. The D-Day drops and Market Garden are two.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/20/2013 9:06:58 PM   
pnzrgnral

 

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Since we're on the topic of terrain, World War II AND the Pacific theater, one mustn't forget Corregidor. The 503d PIR jumped on the golf course on The Rock; they had to do so only a few planes at a time due to the very small size of the DZ. A cliff was on one side of the DZ and several troopers went over. The assault was later reinforced by a battalion (+) from the 34th Inf Regt, landing by sea on the tail end of the island. As all troopers on a combat jump, they carried a basic load of ammo and whatever else they could stuff into their pockets. Resupply was 'chuted in later.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/21/2013 1:12:05 PM   
czert2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Those 30 arty were indeed 28 small-medium caliber AA guns and two 6"CD guns; as far as I know AA guns shouldn't affect land combat, right?


If they were meant to shoot people they should have been designated as anti-people guns, right?



Well, no so exactly - basicaly you can use any anti-peronel mg in aa role, but it can be hindered by few factors - like not enough ammo in belt/magazine for long burst againts plane, ot enough ROF or just bad mount for efective aa fire, otoh AA-designed wepon dont have these problems are thier mount in most acases allow negative elevation for land use too.
Look at german whirbelwing - 4xaa guns mounted on pz4 carriage - very efective against low level flying planes .
And some time after d-day it whiped out entire us squad in less than 2 mins which were surprised by lone whirbelwind.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/21/2013 1:19:00 PM   
czert2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard


quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Not me.

Smart, because paratroops drop with supply for one day battle.



Ohhh the first day supply is included for free!!!! And from the second you can send it by transports or bombers. My question has been answered Thanks



there is no supply for free, there is no suppply at all, which means you were spot on with your observation. I've been saying this for years already. If I use 300 C-47 to drop a single US para unit then the unit will not have any supply until at least one squad is already there and the next day supply goes in too.

Some tried to tell me the supply is used up in a single day, yeah, 1 para unit uses more supply in a day than a division. You can use a thousand transports and the unit won't have any supply the first day.

And before someone brings it up, I don't give a damn about a "no (-) for supply in the combat report" because those (+) and (-) are just fubar most of the time anyway.

So, here is no way to transport (extra) suply to para units, locked in combat until whole unit is here ? Is drop from bombers posible, will it work? Transport planes will be used for transporting more troops.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/21/2013 2:12:01 PM   
Sardaukar


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I think you can drop extra supplies after you have "boots on ground", that is, when you have dropped paras. I don't think it needs to be full unit even.

Just have another air unit that is capable to set for supply transport and target the dropped unit next day.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/21/2013 7:06:11 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

Those 30 arty were indeed 28 small-medium caliber AA guns and two 6"CD guns; as far as I know AA guns shouldn't affect land combat, right?


If they were meant to shoot people they should have been designated as anti-people guns, right?



Well, no so exactly - basicaly you can use any anti-peronel mg in aa role, but it can be hindered by few factors - like not enough ammo in belt/magazine for long burst againts plane, ot enough ROF or just bad mount for efective aa fire, otoh AA-designed wepon dont have these problems are thier mount in most acases allow negative elevation for land use too.
Look at german whirbelwing - 4xaa guns mounted on pz4 carriage - very efective against low level flying planes .
And some time after d-day it whiped out entire us squad in less than 2 mins which were surprised by lone whirbelwind.


I heard a story from my father that the German garrison in his Island (in dalmatia) used a 4x flack gun to ambush a jugoslavian partizan formation moving in the village; it was terribly effective

+1


< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 4/21/2013 7:07:16 PM >

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/21/2013 8:23:58 PM   
Cribtop


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You can't use AA guns against tanks, it isn't cricket!



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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/21/2013 9:15:07 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

So, here is no way to transport (extra) suply to para units, locked in combat until whole unit is here ? Is drop from bombers posible, will it work? Transport planes will be used for transporting more troops.


Yes you can always air drop supplies from bombers but I don't know the relative effectiveness if the crews aren't trained in supply, furthermore I don't know if it matters if you own an airfield on the target hex. You might consider using a bomber squadron or two from the start of your campaign to train crews in transport, before you have sufficient transport aircraft.

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RE: It's possible to drop supplies together with paratr... - 4/25/2013 7:59:20 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think you can drop extra supplies after you have "boots on ground", that is, when you have dropped paras. I don't think it needs to be full unit even.

Just have another air unit that is capable to set for supply transport and target the dropped unit next day.



yup, a single - even disabled - squad or device would be fine and you can fly in as much supply as you like, just no supply at all on the first day.

Latest official patch, just recently dropped a USMC para unit on an empty base and when looking at the unit, there was 0 (ZERO) supply. No fighting at all, ample transports, roughly 250 C-47. Why so many? Because I just clicked "set orders for all transports at this base" as I was too lazy to click and give the same orders to the needed four squadrons, so the unit was flown in by all available transports, roughly 6 times too many and not a single point of supply there at the end of the day. The second day when the unit is there you can drop a thousand tons of supplies if you wish to.

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