Trouble With Sweeps

[Icedawg]

I've been trying to get multiple fighter units to sweep a base together, but I have no luck at all. I have two units of the same model stationed at the same base sweeping at the same altitude, but they never go in at the same time. There is an air HQ at the base, excess aviation support and supply present, yet they go in one at a time every time.

As a result, the first unit goes in, initially tears into the CAP, but then gets eaten up due to the fact that it is outnumbered. End result - first unit breaks even or achieves a slight victory. The second unit then goes in and hammers the remaining CAP without taking many (or even any) losses. (After they dive on the remaining CAP, there is no CAP left.)

I can't help but think that if they went in simultaneously, then together they would absolutely destroy the CAP with the initial dive bonus and not have to worry about the CAP biting back (as it would basically be non-existent after the first round of dives).

Am I missing something? What else can I do to get these two units to sweep together as one entity?

[topeverest]

IME, air units in the same command work better together, and of course, the better the commanders the more chance of coordination. Check the air HQ commander too. To the degree you dont have the same patrol altitude, I dont experience good coordination. lastly, I believe that fighters whose speed is very far apart are unlikely to coordinate.

I'd bring more fighters of the same or similar type up and try. You should get several to coordinate.

[geofflambert]

IMO coordination of sweeps is not desirable in most circumstances. When sweeping, if you have multiple sqds. assigned to do it in the same hex, it's actually better (perhaps you could say coordinated) if they arrive at different times to clear the hex of enemy fighters throughout the day so that your bombers can do their work unmolested. When you order a sqd. to sweep you already have a built in advantage in that the entire sqd. arrives simultaneously. If I'm designing an algorithm for that I would have multiple sqds. avoid overlaps, unless their commanders are nincompoops. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish but perhaps you should rethink your tactic.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I've been trying to get multiple fighter units to sweep a base together, but I have no luck at all. I have two units of the same model stationed at the same base sweeping at the same altitude, but they never go in at the same time. There is an air HQ at the base, excess aviation support and supply present, yet they go in one at a time every time.

As a result, the first unit goes in, initially tears into the CAP, but then gets eaten up due to the fact that it is outnumbered. End result - first unit breaks even or achieves a slight victory. The second unit then goes in and hammers the remaining CAP without taking many (or even any) losses. (After they dive on the remaining CAP, there is no CAP left.)

I can't help but think that if they went in simultaneously, then together they would absolutely destroy the CAP with the initial dive bonus and not have to worry about the CAP biting back (as it would basically be non-existent after the first round of dives).

Am I missing something? What else can I do to get these two units to sweep together as one entity?

that's how it is. The few times you will see more squadrons going in together on a sweep is probably a flaw then.

[Alfred]

Sweeps do not coordinate. Read this thread.

tm.asp?m=2804256&mpage=1&key=sweep%2Ccoordination

There will be subtle changes between the two fighter units in question which will reduce the chances of both arriving simultaneously. More info provided by screenshots (several) would need to be provided to identify what the relevant differences are.

Alfred

[obvert]

Sweeps can coordinate using the official patch. Not so much with the betas.

Both I and my opponent have had up to 150+ fighters in a coordinated sweep. That is fairly devastating to the defenders. It has only happened with same model of plane being in all groups.

This has happened for us from level 9 bases with plenty of support. Close to destination. Not sure on the other particulars. It is rare and you can't really plan for it, but when it happens it's pretty to watch, unless you're on the receiving end.

[koniu]

Few times in my game i saw sweep coordination.
Every time all groups fly this same plane model (climb speed and cruise speed where equal) and they fly from the same AF or different AF but distance to target was the same.

For 520+ turns i play it happens only 4 or 5 times to me

[Alfred]

Why do I even bother to do the research and post the primary material when people can't be bothered to do the work themselves or read CLOSELY, not read into what I write their own interpretation. I spent over 6 hours on Saturday researching the various answers before I posted to several threads. Today, just on this single thread I spent 2 hours researching the topic before selecting the most comprehensive single thread on the subject.[sm=00000018.gif

Coordination is only available to synchronise multi bomber and their escorts from one/several airfields to strike the enemy at the same spot. Any other aircraft groups on different mission profiles may co-operate sufficiently that they appear over a target close to each other. This may look as coordination but it is not.

When a dev says sweeps do not coordinate, what part of the message from the dev is unclear. When I retrieve the answers there are too many more interested in the opportunity to find offense in my posts or contradict me, rather than thinking through what I provide on my own time.

And no, before some smart alec wants to accuse me of just playing with semantics, there is a difference between "coordination" and "cooperation". In the former the code, as stated by theElf in 2009, once it realises the player wants to create a coordinated strike package it attempts to do so. But the player must utilise that key otherwise there is no possibility of coordination only at best some cooperation. Everything else which players are told is necessary to get "coordination" (for which the link I gave is invaluable) is required in order to facilitate, in a 0,1 virtual world the "physical" arrival of the aircraft. With "cooperation" there is no similar trigger key. Which is why it is rarer to witness cooperation.

Sure it is possible for players to anecdotally witness 150 fighters arriving over the target. They did well with the factors necessary to facilitate their "physical" arrival but that is not coordination which is favoured by the code provided the trigger is set and it is "physically" possible in the virtual world.

So the next person who wants to find fault with me is really complaining about the devs. I doubt too many will undertake the requisite research or think through the issues. Far easier to attack me publicly on the forum, or privately via PM/email which allows them to say things which would get them banned from the forum.

Alfred

[RogerJNeilson]

Alfred, your posts are always a mine of great information to me, maybe more people should register their appreciation rather than 'have a go' at you.

Roger

[Sardaukar]

One of the highlights for me was when I managed *once* to correct Alfred. [:D]

He is the living encyclopedia of AE.

[towers58]

Alfred,

I appreciate your efforts and always devour the info you provide.

Thank you,

Mike

[crsutton]

The solution is simple. If the target us in range place two or three squadrons on Long Range Cap over the target. Then sweep with one or two other units. In most all cases the units on Long Range Cap will join in the fight over the target and support the sweep. They also tend to support each sweep even if they are not coordinated. This is not guaranteed but will happen most all of the time. It makes for a very powerful sweep. In doing this it actually becomes more desirable for the sweeps to go in one at at time as you will have multiple opportunities to engage the defenders in large air battles. If you are trying to suppress an airbase or cause attrition to the enemy then this is my preferred tactic.

I would not advise layering your units. Place them all at the highest altitude allowed by your HRs.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

IME, air units in the same command work better together, and of course, the better the commanders the more chance of coordination. Check the air HQ commander too. To the degree you dont have the same patrol altitude, I dont experience good coordination. lastly, I believe that fighters whose speed is very far apart are unlikely to coordinate.

I'd bring more fighters of the same or similar type up and try. You should get several to coordinate.

I'll check the air HQ commander. I already have taken all of your other points into account - belong to the same command, good leaders, same altitude and same exact model aircraft (so same speed). I suspect the air HQ is not going to have much of an effect, but I'll give it a shot. At this point, I'll try just about anything.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

IMO coordination of sweeps is not desirable in most circumstances. When sweeping, if you have multiple sqds. assigned to do it in the same hex, it's actually better (perhaps you could say coordinated) if they arrive at different times to clear the hex of enemy fighters throughout the day so that your bombers can do their work unmolested. When you order a sqd. to sweep you already have a built in advantage in that the entire sqd. arrives simultaneously. If I'm designing an algorithm for that I would have multiple sqds. avoid overlaps, unless their commanders are nincompoops. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish but perhaps you should rethink your tactic.

I'm basically just sweeping to kill enemy fighters at this stage. Bombing runs will commence only when the enemy has no more fighters left at the base.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Sweeps can coordinate using the official patch. Not so much with the betas.

Both I and my opponent have had up to 150+ fighters in a coordinated sweep. That is fairly devastating to the defenders. It has only happened with same model of plane being in all groups.

This has happened for us from level 9 bases with plenty of support. Close to destination. Not sure on the other particulars. It is rare and you can't really plan for it, but when it happens it's pretty to watch, unless you're on the receiving end.

Obvert - you may be onto something. I'm sweeping from two different bases and they are size 3 and size 7. The 3 is close to the target, but the 7 is a good way off. Perhaps that's the problem.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: crsutton


The solution is simple. If the target us in range place two or three squadrons on Long Range Cap over the target. Then sweep with one or two other units. In most all cases the units on Long Range Cap will join in the fight over the target and support the sweep. They also tend to support each sweep even if they are not coordinated. This is not guaranteed but will happen most all of the time. It makes for a very powerful sweep. In doing this it actually becomes more desirable for the sweeps to go in one at at time as you will have multiple opportunities to engage the defenders in large air battles. If you are trying to suppress an airbase or cause attrition to the enemy then this is my preferred tactic.

I would not advise layering your units. Place them all at the highest altitude allowed by your HRs.

I think I just struck gold here. I didn't realize you could LRCAP an enemy base (at least without a friendly unit or TF located there). I'll give it a shot.

[crsutton]

Yes, I have been doing is with great success for over 1,000 turns. I also never escort bombing raids but put LRCAP over the target. Mind you this works for one day turns but does not work so well if you are playing two day turns.

You can forget about trying to coordinate. Let us know if this works for you.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, I have been doing is with great success for over 1,000 turns. I also never escort bombing raids but put LRCAP over the target. Mind you this works for one day turns but does not work so well if you are playing two day turns.

You can forget about trying to coordinate. Let us know if this works for you.

Will do.

Just a quick question though. Does this LRCAP technique incur huge amounts of plane and/or pilot fatigue? With sweep and escort, it's just a single round trip to the target and back. But with LRCAP, it would involve constant shuttling of planes out/back and out/back and out/back . . . all day long. Have you noticed crazy levels of fatigue compared to simple sweep and escort missions?

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Sweeps do not coordinate. Read this thread.

tm.asp?m=2804256&mpage=1&key=sweep%2Ccoordination

There will be subtle changes between the two fighter units in question which will reduce the chances of both arriving simultaneously. More info provided by screenshots (several) would need to be provided to identify what the relevant differences are.

Alfred

Very helpful thread.

How do you manage to use the search function so efficiently? I try searching before I post most of my questions on this forum and get either: no results at all, or a couple hits with pretty much no relevance to my question.

I'm the same way with Google. I can search all night for some info on particular home/lawn/garden projects I'm in the middle of and won't find anything. I'll tell my wife of my frustrations and she'll find something in 2 minutes! Maddening to say the least! [:@]

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: towers58

Alfred,

I appreciate your efforts and always devour the info you provide.

Thank you,

Mike

+1