Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/14/2013 6:43:01 PM   
Orm


Posts: 9095
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

What's the best defence for France? That is an alignment of Yugoslavia on the Allied side. Greece isn't a backwater because of this. Germany can't ignore an Italian war in Greece if the CW can get 4 corps into it, especially since the Italians are not capable of conquering the Greeks in one turn if the turn is short (and it is going to be short in ND 1939), even with the German MTN at their side...
I'll gladly leave France alone as the Western allies to get those corps into Greece. An alignment of Yugoslavia is a problem for the Germans, because of the long borders that country has on Axis controlled area's. German controlled forces can't defend all positions there and keep a large force against the French at the same time.
If Germany ignores the Italian/Greek war and goes all out for France in N/D 1939, I'm not going to be to worried. That turn is short and the French should hold long enough for the CW to align the Yugoslavians and start moving Yugoslavian units into all kind of places the Axis don't want those units to appear. How nice it is to destroy oil fields in Austria, or factories in Munich. In M/A 1940 those CW corps will leave Greece and return to France...
I would suggest you look at the map and imagine what the two Yugoslavian corps with can leave that country can do as "kamikazes" against the Axis war effort...


In this scenario where Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria are already aligned to Germany there are many units available for defending the Yugoslavian border. Therefore I do not believe that Yugoslavian troops may cause any real trouble against the Axis war effort. Yugoslavia has to be dealt with but they can be contained and conquest can wait until France has fallen.

With that said it would be preferably for the Axis to align Germany to themselves instead.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 121
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/14/2013 7:00:07 PM   
Orm


Posts: 9095
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Thanks Orm.

COM = Current on map minor country air and land units.
MCL = minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.
MCR = minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.


First of all minor country naval units are exempt from this rule.

So the formula for the number of minor country unit that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is:

The number of minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is equal to half the current number of on map minor country units rounded up.

The current on map minor country air and land units / 2 = the number of minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country (rounded up).

COM / 2 = MCL (rounded up).

And the formula for finding the number of minor country units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is:

The number of minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is equal to the current number of on map minor country units minus the number of minor country unit that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.

The current number of on map minor country air and land units - the number of minor country unit that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country = the number of minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.

COM - MCL = MCR.


Since we are dealing with a hypothetical situation established by Orm with his set up.

With the Bulgarians able to take Solonica I couldn't land Italian units there because the Italians and Bulgarians do not co-operate.

The Alpini MTN (5-4) would still move east 2 hexes and establish the rail supply line through Bulgaria.

There would be no need for an invasion with the Italians at sea and they would shift one box down to the 3-sea box and remain at sea.

Orm it's your turn.



quote:

brian brian let me help you brush up on your geography.
World Atlas ~ Map of Balkan Peninsula
The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. | 2012 | ~ Balkan Peninsula
Encyclopedia Britannica ~ Balkan Peninsula


quote:

As for the Italian units in North Africa that depends on what and where the French units are and what they do.



I didn't say the DoW of Greece in 1939 was a good strategy but it is a possibility and I'm sure we haven't checked out all the repercussions yet.






I am not sure that your formula is correct.

If the minor country has two units and they are both allowed to leave. If I read your formula right then it gives the answer that only one unit may leave.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 122
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/14/2013 7:50:37 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 5955
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Yes the correct formula is MCL = 1 + Integer value of COM divided by 2. MCL = 1 + Z(COM/2)

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 123
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/14/2013 7:59:50 PM   
Orm


Posts: 9095
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
I assumed that CW could afford a combined action and move two Greek units. CW transported a unit to Athens with the TRS disorganized in Athens. CW has fleet available for defensive shore bombardment in the Eastern Mediterranean and a French fleet is there as well. France tried to find the Italian fleet but both searches failed. One CW CV with a CVP fighter with an air to air rating of 3 available for interceptions.

During the next Axis impulse I railed a German MTN to Salonika (if you want other rail moves I can change this). It is now the Axis land movement step. Axis rolled lucky with the weather and it is all fair and the impulse marker advances 1 step. Impulse marker is now on impulse #5. Turn can not end yet because it ends on a minus one.

There is a Italian FTR2 with a air to air rating of 4 and a range of 6 stacked with the Sparviero in Corfu.

Note: I was lazy when I set this up so I did not put any convoys out for CW so therefore the CW unit in Greece is marked as OOS. For the purpose of this scenario consider the CW units in Greece in supply. CW and Italy is not yet at war.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 124
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/15/2013 6:44:14 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:


The only reasonable time you stay at sea and shift down a box is at the end of the turn - which is what you obviously meant.


Yup.


Orm you are right about the forumula.

"You can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, If half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country"

Example: Rumania has 4 land units and 1 aircraft unit on the map. You can move a unit out of Rumania if at least 3 of those units (remember, halves round up) are presently in Rumania. They could be 3 land units or 2 land units and an aircraft unit. Its naval units are not restricted.

COM = Current on map minor country air and land units.
0.5 = Adjusts the number of units that can leave the minor country.
MCL = minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.
MCR = minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.

(COM / 2) + 0.5 = MCL (rounded up).

(1 / 2) + 0.5 = 1 may leave
(2 / 2) + 0.5 = (1.5 rounded up to) 2 may leave
(3 / 2) + 0.5 = 2 may leave
(4 / 2) + 0.5 = (2.5 rounded up to) 3 may leave
(5 / 2) + 0.5 = 3 may leave
(6 / 2) + 0.5 = (3.5 rounded up to) 4 may leave
(7 / 2) + 0.5 = 4 may leave
(8 / 2) + 0.5 = (4.5 rounded up to) 5 may leave

1 Land (or air) unit total -> 1 may leave
2 Land unit total -> 2 may leave
3 Land unit total -> 2 may leave
4 Land unit total -> 3 may leave
5 Land unit total -> 3 may leave
6 Land unit total -> 4 may leave
7 Land unit total -> 4 may leave
8 Land unit total -> 5 may leave


quote:

Yugoslavia
The Commonwealth can declare that Yugoslavia is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Yugoslavia is neutral and there are a total of 4 or more Commonwealth corps in any adjacent countries.

France can declare that Yugoslavia is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Yugoslavia is neutral and there are a total of 4 or more French corps in any adjacent countries.


France falls.
Yugoslavia goes Vichy French 80% of the time.
Yugoslavia goes Free French (what a concept) 20% of the time.


Orm please put the FTR2, SM.79 LND, Balbo HQ-I (3(3)3) back in Tirana and the X INF (3-3) back in Albania. They weren't moved because it took a combined action to move the Italians to sea.

As I understand you the German MTN railed down this impulse and the weather is fair again?

Germany aligns Hungary this impulse.



I'm having fun Orm how about you?


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 125
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/15/2013 6:09:26 PM   
Orm


Posts: 9095
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


Orm please put the FTR2, SM.79 LND, Balbo HQ-I (3(3)3) back in Tirana and the X INF (3-3) back in Albania. They weren't moved because it took a combined action to move the Italians to sea.

As I understand you the German MTN railed down this impulse and the weather is fair again?

Germany aligns Hungary this impulse.



I'm having fun Orm how about you?


I can put the units back if you want but first I want to ask you if you would still have picked a combined when you didn't use the fleet and didn't land or invade with the division. If you picked a land instead you can always send the fleet to sea in a later combined. And if you still decide to make an combined move then you will have two units available to move since the move reserved for the division was not used.

You are correct that the German MTN was railed this impulse and the weather is fair.

I am having fun otherwise I wouldn't participate. I do not mind rule discussions but I can get a bit annoyed when there is much rule discussion and less talk about tactics and strategy. Now when we are back to the issue of invading Greece late 1939 am I am having a really fun time.

I've decided that the CW has no available transports at this time. If CW picks a naval next impulse then CW can abort a TRS to port and reorganize it and use it the impulse after that. Hence there will be no new CW units available for Greece next allied impulse.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 126
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/15/2013 7:59:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

A) I can put the units back if you want but first I want to ask you if you would still have picked a combined when you didn't use the fleet and didn't land or invade with the division. If you picked a land instead you can always send the fleet to sea in a later combined. And if you still decide to make an combined move then you will have two units available to move since the move reserved for the division was not used.

You are correct that the German MTN was railed this impulse and the weather is fair.

B) I am having fun otherwise I wouldn't participate. I do not mind rule discussions but I can get a bit annoyed when there is much rule discussion and less talk about tactics and strategy. Now when we are back to the issue of invading Greece late 1939 am I am having a really fun time.

I've decided that the CW has no available transports at this time. If CW picks a naval next impulse then CW can abort a TRS to port and reorganize it and use it the impulse after that. Hence there will be no new CW units available for Greece next allied impulse.



A) Six reasons for the Combined action:
1) Previously I said I would and thought it might be inappropriate to change horses in midstream. I assumed that your planning was due to previous posts.

2) Perceived threat.
Malta could be open. Sure it's a long shot but it's Malta.
Beirut, Lebanon could be open. But it's a long shot to temporarily stop French oil.
I can land them in North Africa and reform them there as a corps. I can also use the Italian TRS and land another corps or headquarters in North Africa.
If the French don't garrison their fleet base in Southern France (assuming there is one) I can land there and force them to re-base.

3) It keeps the CW off balance in the Mediterranean. Do they DoW Italy or wait. Where do they get the troops for Greece in Nov/Dec 1939?

4) It keeps France off balance in the Mediterranean. France sending units to Greece when facing a German offence in 1940 is very risky.
French production is 4BP and by the time they build any land units in France the Germans are already knocking at their door.
The French have 1x TRS, which would have to transport a headquarters to Greece. The hexes are Greek/CW and the French don't co-operate with the CW. This means that any French land units would have to break down to divisions be transported to Greece on French SCS and then reform.

5) It gets the Italian fleet out of port and if the French send a small force to the Italian Coast I would be glad to attack it while fighting my way through.

6) It helps with the mini-tutorial we have created here.



B) Ah yes the kibitzing. It's sort of like playing the game with a half dozen people at your elbow giving advice all at once.

I am a person who learns by doing not by memorizing the rules (yeah I await the comments on that statement). Besides this is much more interesting and fun.

But this scenario will probably end with you in Athens and Me with the Greek resource.

And the Hungarians and Romanians being used to meet German garrison requirements to keep the USSR from breaking the neutrality pact. Freeing more Germans units for the attack on France.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 127
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/16/2013 6:54:12 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
A Summary of the events so far:

Sep/Oct 1939
Germany DoW's the Poland the CW player assumes control of Poland.

Germany DoW's the Denmark the CW player assumes control of Denmark.
The CW player's choice:
The CW player can set up half the Danish navy of 2x CA, 6x CP, and 2x tankers in Greenland or Iceland. The rest of the Danish navy should be set up in Fredrikshaven, Denmark. If your ships in Fredrikshaven are over run re-base the survivors in England. Note: Peder Skram CA has a range of 1 if you want to keep it set it up outside of Denmark.

quote:


19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

Complete conquest
All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).



Germany DoW's the Netherlands the CW player assumes control of the Netherlands.
The CW player's choice:
The CW player can set up half the Netherlands navy of 3x CA, 2 CL, 2x TRS, 1x SUB, 10x CP, and 6x tankers in Dutch Guyana or Netherlands East Indies. If your ships in the Netherlands are over run re-base the survivors in England.

The CW and France DoW Germany.
The USSR DoW's Rumania the German player assumes control of Rumania.


quote:

5.1 Trade agreements
Hungary
A neutral Hungary must supply Germany with its resource each turn (exception: see 19.6.2 Rumania).

Rumania
While neutral, Rumania supplies Germany with 2 oil resources and its other oil resource to Italy, each turn.


14x Strategic bombing factors (not intercepted)
0x Rumanian oil points lost 10%
1x Rumanian oil points lost 20%
2x Rumanian oil points lost 20%
3x Rumanian oil points lost 20%
4x Rumanian oil points lost 20%

1x Rumanian oil point destroyed 20%
2x Rumanian oil point destroyed 10%

Poland falls,

Germany receives 1x resource from Hungary.
Germany looses 2x oil for that turn from Rumanian.
Italy looses 1x oil for that turn from Rumanian.

Germany enforces a peace between the USSR and Rumanian.


Nov/Dec 1939
Germany aligns Rumania as a full ally.
Germany aligns Bulgaria.
Germany DoW's Greece the CW player assumes control of Greece.
Italy DoW's Greece Italy sends a strongly worded dispatch to the CW denouncing the intervention of CW troops in Greece.
Germany aligns Hungary.

Germany gains 1x factory in Hungary.
Germany gains 2x factories in Poland.
Germany gains 1x factory in Rumania.

Germany receives 1x resource from Bulgaria.
Germany receives 1x resource from Hungary.
Germany receives 2x resource from Poland.
Germany receives 3x oil from Rumania.
Italy receives 1x resource from Greece.




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 5/16/2013 7:08:16 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 128
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/16/2013 7:17:28 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 5687
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
You've forgotten the Italians did DoW France too, to make sure that it was possible to move the Italian fleet around in the Med in force (you've stated this earlier). Also, the alignments means that you are now in the third or fourth impulse in N/D 1939 (depending on which side moved first this turn), which only leaves on average 1 Axis impulse because of bad weather (I don't know the statistics exactly, but wasn't the average number of impulses in N/D in total about 6 in N/D?), assuming the Germans DoW'ed the Greece and aligned Bulgaria in the same impulse and before the alignment of Hungary.

Also: the force pools of the Danish and Dutch aren't right. The durch get one TRS. Also tankers are not in addition to convoy points, but are replacements of those. So the Dutch get 10 CP which might be tankers or normal convoys...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 5/16/2013 7:32:19 PM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 129
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/17/2013 12:25:08 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
A Summary of the events so far:

Sep/Oct 1939
Germany DoW's the Poland the CW player assumes control of Poland.

Germany DoW's the Denmark the CW player assumes control of Denmark.
The CW player's choice:
The CW player can set up half the Danish navy of 2x CA, and 6x CP (or up to 2x tankers and the rest CP's equaling 6) in Greenland or Iceland. The rest of the Danish navy should be set up in Fredrikshaven, Denmark. If your ships in Fredrikshaven are over run re-base the survivors in England. Note: Peder Skram CA has a range of 1 if you want to keep it set it up outside of Denmark.

quote:


19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

Complete conquest
All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).



Germany DoW's the Netherlands the CW player assumes control of the Netherlands.
The CW player's choice:
The CW player can set up half the Netherlands navy of 3x CA, 2 CL, 2x TRS, 1x SUB, and 10x CP (or up to 6x tankers and the rest CP's equaling 10) in Dutch Guyana or Netherlands East Indies. If your ships in the Netherlands are over run re-base the survivors in England.

The CW and France DoW Germany.
The USSR DoW's Rumania the German player assumes control of Rumania.


quote:

5.1 Trade agreements
Hungary
A neutral Hungary must supply Germany with its resource each turn (exception: see 19.6.2 Rumania).

Rumania
While neutral, Rumania supplies Germany with 2 oil resources and its other oil resource to Italy, each turn.


14x Strategic bombing factors (not intercepted)
0x Rumanian oil points lost 10%
1x Rumanian oil points lost 20%
2x Rumanian oil points lost 20%
3x Rumanian oil points lost 20%
4x Rumanian oil points lost 20%

1x Rumanian oil point destroyed 20%
2x Rumanian oil point destroyed 10%

Poland falls,

Germany receives 1x resource from Hungary.
Germany looses 2x oil for that turn from Rumanian.
Italy looses 1x oil for that turn from Rumanian.

Germany enforces a peace between the USSR and Rumanian.


Nov/Dec 1939
Germany aligns Rumania as a full ally.
Germany aligns Bulgaria.
Italy DoW's France.
Germany DoW's Greece the CW player assumes control of Greece.
Italy DoW's Greece Italy sends a strongly worded dispatch to the CW denouncing the intervention of CW troops in Greece.
Germany aligns Hungary.

Germany gains 1x factory in Hungary.
Germany gains 2x factories in Poland.
Germany gains 1x factory in Rumania.

Germany receives 1x resource from Bulgaria.
Germany receives 1x resource from Hungary.
Germany receives 2x resource from Poland.
Germany receives 3x oil from Rumania.
Italy receives 1x resource from Greece.

quote:

CoiF option 76: The CoiF column in the above table is the number of tankers these minor countries start with. Reduce that number of SiF convoy points set up. (e.g. Finland sets up with 1 tanker and 2 convoy points).


As for impulses...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORM

During the next Axis impulse I railed a German MTN to Salonika (if you want other rail moves I can change this). It is now the Axis land movement step. Axis rolled lucky with the weather and it is all fair and the impulse marker advances 1 step. Impulse marker is now on impulse #5. Turn can not end yet because it ends on a minus one.


Is it the Netherlands 1934 TRS or the 1937 TRS?



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 5/17/2013 4:20:19 AM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 130
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/17/2013 4:46:07 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2141
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
and Germany loses 3 resources per turn from Russia. Russia then has perhaps a dozen extra BPs of units on the board to face a 1941 Barbarossa.

Activating Rumania in 1939 costs the Axis a 5 BP HQ unit....costs in Bulgaria would include a 3 BP INF.

Greek resource can not be transported until the Axis clears the hex NW of Athens, which probably won't happen until M/A 40 at best, and then only with Luftwaffe support or good luck on the dice. Counting on good luck is not usually good strategy, and the Luftwaffe will likely be in the Rhineland that turn.

About M/A 40 is about when the CW will be able to get a 4th corps (all cheap, quick MIL most likely) into Greece and activate Yugoslavia, while still contributing to a defense of France. By that time the French navy might have gotten some attrition accomplished vs. the Italian navy, and the long Allied coastlines in the Med will slowly become more secure; they are generally only threatened on the surprise impulse, so the French coasts are safe already. Though when I command the French, I sail their INF away from Beirut on their first impulse, so perhaps better temptation for Mussolini would have made Greece perfectly tranquil. Too bad the Italian army is stuck in land-locked Albania, and can only be extricated past wandering French battleships, which have nothing to lose.

Axis units defending the Yugoslavian border and Axis economic outposts in the Balkans can't simultaneously be in the border zone for the Nazi-Soviet pact. And, if they are, a ZoC from a Yugo unit makes them not count for pact totals, and that could get interesting. Serbs, inadvertently sparking a Russo<>German war, round 2, just as in 1914. The Red Army, already parked in Bessarabia though with a bloody nose from rolling poorly, and their bonus production, might as well stuff the border until at least Sep/Oct 40. This would probably have little chance of success, but could force the Germans to build more ground units than they might want to, especially with the nice large, free Merchant Marine the CW will be enjoying. The Wehrmacht would be summoned to the western front, the eastern front, and the southern front simultaneously. Yugoslavian ZOC from their CAV or sneaky MTN could threaten the Axis rail supply line to northern Greece at many points. The Yugos would enjoy their interior lines and the strategy benefits from that quite a bit. So would the CW, with their potential +2 BP bounce. They could build even more MIL or INF (much easier without needing to build convoy points), maybe land one in Dubrovnik on the Croatian coast. Italy would have a not simple job of transporting their coal out of the Pola hex....finally, the French SUB has something to do, if they weren't too busy lurking off of Sardinia.

US entry would have taken a hit from a Russian DOW on Rumania, but the Axis issuing not-required 3x DOWs on minors, one on a major power, and aligning three minor countries would probably compensate for that. With 1939 USE chits in play, literally anything is possible, including American first gear-up in early 1940. And that spells D-O-O-M

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 131
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/17/2013 2:41:36 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
1) and Germany loses 3 resources per turn from Russia. Russia then has perhaps a dozen extra BPs of units on the board to face a 1941 Barbarossa.

2) Activating Rumania in 1939 costs the Axis a 5 BP HQ unit....costs in Bulgaria would include a 3 BP INF.

3) Greek resource can not be transported until the Axis clears the hex NW of Athens, which probably won't happen until M/A 40 at best, and then only with Luftwaffe support or good luck on the dice. Counting on good luck is not usually good strategy, and the Luftwaffe will likely be in the Rhineland that turn.

4) About M/A 40 is about when the CW will be able to get a 4th corps (all cheap, quick MIL most likely) into Greece and activate Yugoslavia, while still contributing to a defense of France. By that time the French navy might have gotten some attrition accomplished vs. the Italian navy, and the long Allied coastlines in the Med will slowly become more secure; they are generally only threatened on the surprise impulse, so the French coasts are safe already. Though when I command the French, I sail their INF away from Beirut on their first impulse, so perhaps better temptation for Mussolini would have made Greece perfectly tranquil. Too bad the Italian army is stuck in land-locked Albania, and can only be extricated past wandering French battleships, which have nothing to lose.

5) Axis units defending the Yugoslavian border and Axis economic outposts in the Balkans can't simultaneously be in the border zone for the Nazi-Soviet pact. And, if they are, a ZoC from a Yugo unit makes them not count for pact totals, and that could get interesting. Serbs, inadvertently sparking a Russo<>German war, round 2, just as in 1914. The Red Army, already parked in Bessarabia though with a bloody nose from rolling poorly, and their bonus production, might as well stuff the border until at least Sep/Oct 40. This would probably have little chance of success, but could force the Germans to build more ground units than they might want to, especially with the nice large, free Merchant Marine the CW will be enjoying. The Wehrmacht would be summoned to the western front, the eastern front, and the southern front simultaneously. Yugoslavian ZOC from their CAV or sneaky MTN could threaten the Axis rail supply line to northern Greece at many points. The Yugos would enjoy their interior lines and the strategy benefits from that quite a bit. So would the CW, with their potential +2 BP bounce. They could build even more MIL or INF (much easier without needing to build convoy points), maybe land one in Dubrovnik on the Croatian coast. Italy would have a not simple job of transporting their coal out of the Pola hex....finally, the French SUB has something to do, if they weren't too busy lurking off of Sardinia.

6) US entry would have taken a hit from a Russian DOW on Rumania, but the Axis issuing not-required 3x DOWs on minors, one on a major power, and aligning three minor countries would probably compensate for that. With 1939 USE chits in play, literally anything is possible, including American first gear-up in early 1940. And that spells D-O-O-M


1) True.
quote:

In each turn, Germany must lend lease 2 build points to the USSR while the USSR must supply Germany with 7 resources (2 of them must be oil). These numbers can change if circumstances vary. For each of:
• Bulgaria
• Hungary
• Rumania
that an Axis major power either declares war on or aligns with (see 9.7, 9.8 and 19), reduce the number of resources the USSR must supply by 1 (minimum 0). Reduce the ordinary resources before you reduce any oil resources.


2) To me not getting the Rumania HQ and loosing 1 resource is preferable to having the USSR DoW Rumania and loosing 3x oil again. Aligning Hungary and Rumania immediately frees German units from having to garrison the border with the USSR. Which would you rather have Rumania units or German units?

I want point out when Germany aligns Rumania Italy looses its oil from Rumania. If Italy is to receive any oil Germany will have to form a trade agreement with Italy.

3) Not completely true. How important is that resource to the CW? Is the CW willing to put a Greek or CW unit on the resource hex to hold it?

4) If before Mar/Apr 1940 the CW and Italy don't go to war. If the MIL has been built by the CW. If the CW has the transports and can find a place to land in Greece. If in Mar/Apr 1940 the French fleet sails. This would mean the CW is highly focused on Greece.

5) True but the Axis has not claimed Yugoslavia yet so they don't need to be in Yugoslavia.

6) We have not considered the repercussions of the USSR choosing or not choosing:
quote:

26. The USSR controls Eastern Poland (There is a 70% chance a USA entry chit will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland during any Allied land movement step. However, it can only exercise those rights if Poland has not been conquered (see 19.5.1 Eastern Poland).

27. The USSR controls Nazi-Soviet Pact areas (Baltic States) (There is a 40% chance a USA entry chit will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) during any Allied land movement step after it has exercised its rights to eastern Poland. You can only exercise your rights over those states that are neutral (see 19.5.2 Baltic States).





_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 132
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/17/2013 7:21:05 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 5687
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
On 1 and 2: The loss of three oil points bombed away in Ploesti in S/O 1939 has to be taken into account also. This can hamper German/Italian production or activities in 1939 - 1940, because especially the Germans need oil to reorganise planes, HQ's and possible disrupted mechanised units. Question is always for Germany: do I use the oil for production or do I save it for reorganisation purposes.
Why not simply give in to Russian aggression about Bessarabia? It is the savest and economically the best solution in 1939. Italy doesn't receive any Rumanian oil in SO 1939 because of a Russo-Rumanian War and before the Italians are at war with France or the CW the Germans can't make a trade agreement with Italy. Since Italy isn't in the war at start of the N/D 1939 turn in your example, this means that the Italians are really hampered in the actions they take against Greece or France because they have only one oil point available to them (which is the at start oil point). So the disruption of to many Italian air, navy HQ's and mechanised units means that those aren't going to be reorganised.
I tend to align Hungary as soon as I can (getting 4 land units from them to garrison the border and Poland). The garrison ratio from the USSR with Germany is not very important. 4 Hungarians, the SS INF and a German MTN, together with the German Flying Boat gives a Garrison value of 9. In 1939 the USSR can't break the pact and in 1940 the USSR needs 36! If I want to make sure the USSR aren't getting anywhere, I can even rail one or two of the low factor German GAR units from the West towards Warsaw to make this amount a staggering 44! Count all units available to the USSR at start and look at the build program it needs to take into account (ARM first) to see the time it will take the USSR to get that amount of units on the border.
Also I want to get the Rumanian HQ and the extra Bulgarian INF for free, which is economically equal to 10 Production Points coming out of Greece. That's a whole year of Greek occupation (for which you need a garrison too, to prevent Partisan activity. Even with the Yugoslavians on the Axis side (which I don't think is possible with good CW play) it still takes half a year to provide the PP needed...

On 3: In WiF economics are very, very important. Each turn the CW can prevent the Italians/Germans from using the Greek resource is important. Also, the hex NW of Athens is vital for a good defence of Athens and should be defended until the last Greek isn't standing anymore, thus preventing the use of the resource to the Axis.

On 4: No war between the CW and Italy is especially what the CW needs to get the fourth corps into Greece. It should be able to get one or two into Greece in the first turn of the war (by reorganisation of TRS if needed). Two or three others should be send from wherever they are at that moment. I believe it is quite possible to get the fourth into Greece in J/F 1940. Since that is a short turn and weather is going to be bad in the northern parts of Europe, I don't think the Germans can pull of a succesfull assault on France, so I will weaken those defenses there and probably of the UK also. What I always will do with the CW is to empty the MIL forcepool as soon as possible, because both the Sidney and London MIL are quite nice units to have on the map. The one thing the CW needs to get access to is land units it can use as cheap loss takers. After alignment of Yugoslavia, I will leave the Greeks to themselves and start evacuating those units back to France, where they should reappear again in M/A. In time for the German onslaught there (it's a small gamble, but I think this is possible)...

On 5: The Axis can't afford not to prepare for a possible allied alignment of Yugoslavia. Axis units has to defend places like Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia, Ploesti, Vienna/Bratislava, Trieste, Albania. Loss of any those area's is harmful to the Axis economy or to the Axis war effort in Greece.

On 6: I expect the USSR to control Eastern Poland (since it is stupid not to do before the fall of Poland). I don't expect the USSR to control the Baltics before 1940, because of the fact the USSR can cancel the Pact and DoW Germany if it declares war on any of the Baltic States or if an German controlled unit enters those countries...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 133
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/18/2013 8:17:10 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
A) On 1 and 2: The loss of three oil points bombed away in Ploesti in S/O 1939 has to be taken into account also. This can hamper German/Italian production or activities in 1939 - 1940, because especially the Germans need oil to reorganise planes, HQ's and possible disrupted mechanised units. Question is always for Germany: do I use the oil for production or do I save it for reorganisation purposes.
Why not simply give in to Russian aggression about Bessarabia? It is the safest and economically the best solution in 1939. Italy doesn't receive any Rumanian oil in SO 1939 because of a Russo-Rumanian War and before the Italians are at war with France or the CW the Germans can't make a trade agreement with Italy. Since Italy isn't in the war at start of the N/D 1939 turn in your example, this means that the Italians are really hampered in the actions they take against Greece or France because they have only one oil point available to them (which is the at start oil point). So the disruption of to many Italian air, navy HQ's and mechanised units means that those aren't going to be reorganised.
I tend to align Hungary as soon as I can (getting 4 land units from them to garrison the border and Poland). The garrison ratio from the USSR with Germany is not very important. 4 Hungarians, the SS INF and a German MTN, together with the German Flying Boat will give a Garrison value of 9. In 1939 the USSR can't break the pact and in 1940 the USSR needs 36! If I want to make sure the USSR aren't getting anywhere, I can even rail one or two of the low factor German GAR units from the West towards Warsaw to make this amount a staggering 44! Count all units available to the USSR at start and look at the build program it needs to take into account (ARM first) to see the time it will take the USSR to get that amount of units on the border.
Also I want to get the Rumanian HQ and the extra Bulgarian INF for free, which is economically equal to 10 Production Points coming out of Greece. That's a whole year of Greek occupation (for which you need a garrison too, to prevent Partisan activity. Even with the Yugoslavians on the Axis side (which I don't think is possible with good CW play) it still takes half a year to provide the PP needed...

B) On 3: In WiF economics are very, very important. Each turn the CW can prevent the Italians/Germans from using the Greek resource is important. Also, the hex NW of Athens is vital for a good defence of Athens and should be defended until the last Greek isn't standing anymore, thus preventing the use of the resource to the Axis.

C) On 4: No war between the CW and Italy is especially what the CW needs to get the fourth corps into Greece. It should be able to get one or two into Greece in the first turn of the war (by reorganisation of TRS if needed). Two or three others should be sent from wherever they are at that moment. I believe it is quite possible to get the fourth into Greece in J/F 1940. Since that is a short turn and weather is going to be bad in the northern parts of Europe, I don't think the Germans can pull of a succesfull assault on France, so I will weaken those defenses there and probably of the UK also. What I always will do with the CW is to empty the MIL forcepool as soon as possible, because both the Sidney and London MIL are quite nice units to have on the map. The one thing the CW needs to get access to is land units it can use as cheap loss takers. After alignment of Yugoslavia, I will leave the Greeks to themselves and start evacuating those units back to France, where they should reappear again in M/A. In time for the German onslaught there (it's a small gamble, but I think this is possible)...

D) On 5: The Axis can't afford not to prepare for a possible allied alignment of Yugoslavia. Axis units have to defend places like Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia, Ploesti, Vienna/Bratislava, Trieste, Albania. Loss of any those areas is harmful to the Axis economy or to the Axis war effort in Greece.

E) On 6: I expect the USSR to control Eastern Poland (since it is stupid not to do before the fall of Poland). I don't expect the USSR to control the Baltics before 1940, because of the fact the USSR can cancel the Pact and DoW Germany if it declares war on any of the Baltic States or if a German controlled unit enters those countries...



A) I don't use that many aircraft units in Poland. I do use HQ reorganization and offensive chits to reorganize units. I save the initial Italian oil and don't use it for production.

For the most part I would agree that it is better to allow the claim. But if the USSR comes begging with out a proper number and type of units I will not roll over and play dead.

You build Four Hungarian units? Hungary only starts with 2 land units (if you count the reserve MIL). (6 / 2) + 0.5 = (3.5 rounded up to) 4 may leave.
Germany starts with 10x INF and 7 more that can be built at the same price and will take the same time to produce and use the same gearing limits. If you want efficiency don't align Hungary build and German INF units.

B) The hex northeast of the Greek resource is just as important to the Axis in taking the resource. As it shows in our scenario I can take the resource hex If I choose to have the Italian MTN unit end flipped face down (2 mp for the mountain hex south east of the Italian MTN unit. 1 mp to cross the alpine hex side. I have 1 mp left which allows me to move into the Greek resource where the unit is flipped and defends at a 3 (its a white print unit) which gives me a defense of 9. Are you willing to send your units out in the clear terrain hex to block the Greek resource? The Greeks have no artillery and no air units you have to fight your way through the Italian navy to provide shore bombardment so I don't think you will risk the entire Greek army on a 1 to 2 attack on the Greek resource hex. The next impulse the German MTN unit takes the hex northeast of the Greek resource (even if it snows). You can only transport resources through hexes you control and I meet those requirements. Or do you take a pass action hoping the turn ends?

C) And what if the Italians decide to declare war on the CW to stop the CW intervention in Greece?

D) If the CW successfully intervenes in Greece with 4 corps.

E) As long as you don't forget to align the Baltic States before Germany breaks the pact.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 134
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/18/2013 4:00:23 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 5687
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
A: No, I don't build the Hungarian land units. You get 2 INF and a CAV after alignment and in the turn after that you get another free MIL. Since Hungary is within the USSR-German garrison zone (provided the USSR did claim Eastern Poland), you can use two Hungarian units in Poland (together with the SS INF and a German MTN) and use the other two inside Hungary to count for the Garrison value.
Also: I do use a lot of air in Poland. I want Warsaw and Lodz to be occupied after the second Axis impulse of the game, without getting disrupted German land units on the board in Poland if I can. There's a good reason for this. If weather stays good (or good enough) I want the German heavy units to be on the Western front as soon as possible. I might get a good shot at Belgium if the weather rolls are in my favour. I hate disrupted units to appear in Poland. I want high odds attacks on the Poles, so they need to get groundstriked to make sure they are disorganised. The only HQ I use for reorganisation in the second impulse is von Bock, who should reorganise together with the German ATR four reserve units on the Western Front for use against the Netherlands in the third impulse of S/O 1939. I spend a lot of oil in the first turn. I believe the first turn to be of utmost importance for Germany. If weather stays good, Germany should be as aggressive as possible in that turn. A long first game turn might speed up the Axis timetable. In S/O 1939, it's only bad weather which makes the live of the Germans miserable. Nothing can withstand the German Wehrmacht in the first game turn. I've even seen the total destruction of the French happening in S/O 1939 (and I was the French player), due to good weather staying on and the turn not ending (sure, German combat rolls were good too in that game).

B: it is enough to get a ZOC into the hex NE of the Greek resource hex to block it's transportation over land. Now if the Italians want to ship it overseas, they can do so, but for that we have the French navy for use against the Italian convoys. How nice if there's going to be a gun battle between the French and the Italian navy...

C and D: Long live US entry. Let the Italians DoW the CW and try to stop the CW getting into Greece. Any Italian naval or air units going into action means more disorganised units for which oil is needed to get them back into the action. Oil which the Italians haven't got a lot of. As long as the allied TRS are save in ports, I'm not going to bother. As the CW I've got some choices to make at that point. Can I get the four corps into Greece or not? I don't know, that depends upon placement of Italian units (especially air units) in the MED and the exact position of the fleet (especially CW CV's) and TRS. Also, this is the only way the Italians can prevent me from moving 4 corps into Greece. I don't want the Axis to get 2 PP and the Yugoslavian army made available to them for free! If I can't force the Italians to DoW the CW, than I'm a lousy CW player! I should be sacked by King and Parliament! All things I'm going to do should be for one goal only: to mess up the Axis timetable. Therefore I'm going into Greece. I get another US entry die roll. I might get lucky and align Yugoslavia, thus forcing withdrawal of German units towards Yugoslavia and delaying the fall of France. British forces in France are nice to prevent a fast fall of the country, British forces in Greece are even better for this.
As the CW I'll only declare war on the Italians if I can get a good shot on the Italians TRS. If I can't get a good shot, I'll pass on it.

E: Somewhere in 1940 is early enough for this. There isn't any pressure on the USSR to take those countries, since they don't contribute in any way on the economic side of the war.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 135
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/19/2013 8:39:14 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

B: it is enough to get a ZOC into the hex NE of the Greek resource hex to block it's transportation over land. Now if the Italians want to ship it overseas, they can do so, but for that we have the French navy for use against the Italian convoys. How nice if there's going to be a gun battle between the French and the Italian navy...


B)
quote:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.


Are you're saying that the resource can leave the Greek resource hex but must stop in the next hex even if an Axis unit is in the hex? There it could be saved until the next turn and then railed to Italy.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 136
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/19/2013 8:52:52 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 5955
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
You can save oil in a port or a city. You cannot save resources.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 137
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/19/2013 5:07:19 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

B: it is enough to get a ZOC into the hex NE of the Greek resource hex to block it's transportation over land. Now if the Italians want to ship it overseas, they can do so, but for that we have the French navy for use against the Italian convoys. How nice if there's going to be a gun battle between the French and the Italian navy...


B)
quote:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.


Are you're saying that the resource can leave the Greek resource hex but must stop in the next hex even if an Axis unit is in the hex?



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 138
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/19/2013 5:30:26 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2141
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
That is precisely what we have been saying, and is part of the rules quote posted.

13.6.1 Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 139
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/19/2013 8:01:11 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 5955
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Yeah, the only way it could get out in this event is by sea. Resources on a coast don't need to be in a port to get picked up.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 140
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/19/2013 10:02:23 PM   
Plain Ian

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
Status: offline
B)
quote:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.


If most of the rules are written as above then I would hope that they have diagrams to illustrate them. Too easy to infer that friendly units negate all ZOC's and allow resources to be moved through more than one, which is how it looks at first glance.



(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 141
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 7:16:50 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 5955
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/20/2013 7:17:34 AM >


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Plain Ian)
Post #: 142
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 3:46:01 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
It's the "enter or leave" part.

First of all I understand as per the rules where the ZOC extends into the hex (see 2.2 Zones of control).


The rule states:

quote:

The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.


The problem is, if you have to stop if you enter a ZOC why mention it twice?


Example: We all can probably agree...

If a friendly unit is in the hex and there is an enemy ZOC from the southeast when the rail line goes to the west, northwest, or northeast the resource can leave the hex.

But...

After the above has occurred and after the resource's move has advanced several hexes clear of enemy ZOC.

If there is a friendly unit in the hex and there is a second enemy ZOC does this block the resource's move?



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 143
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 4:29:00 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 5687
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
It's a simple rule. A resource can enter OR leave a hex in enemy ZOC if a friendly unit is in the hex (the number of units is of no importance). A resource can't ever move through a hex in enemy ZOC.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 144
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 6:12:45 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
There is nothing to prevent you from entering a enemy ZOC with or without a friendly unit in the hex you just have to stop.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 145
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 6:44:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 20052
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.


How about:

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - entering a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
3 - moving through a hex, under all conditions.


They both use 34 words.

I think my wording also covers the case about the resource being in the hex with the destination factory, but adding that sentence for clarification still seems like a good idea to me.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 146
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 11:00:52 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
Is this what you mean

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering and leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - moving from one enemy ZOC to another,
3 - moving through a hex, under all other conditions.

In this case if you don't use "and" you have 2 conditions "either this" or "that".

Sorry, I used more words but I think it is clearer.

If a friendly factory is in a ZOC from the Northeast and the resource's move came from the southwest the resource could enter the factory because it would stop when it entered the enemy ZOC (the factory).



< Message edited by Extraneous -- 5/20/2013 11:10:12 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 147
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/20/2013 11:13:00 PM   
Plain Ian

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.



I don't read rules one sentence at a time, I try to make sense of things as a whole. As Extraneous pointed out is was the "enter or leave" part in conjunction with the sentence above which initially confused me.

I didn't realize rules had to be concise. I thought they just had to be clear and unambiguous.

I'm definitely not your guest.




(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 148
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/21/2013 12:20:12 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 5955
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is this what you mean

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering and leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - moving from one enemy ZOC to another,
3 - moving through a hex, under all other conditions.

In this case if you don't use "and" you have 2 conditions "either this" or "that".

Sorry, I used more words but I think it is clearer.

If a friendly factory is in a ZOC from the Northeast and the resource's move came from the southwest the resource could enter the factory because it would stop when it entered the enemy ZOC (the factory).

No this won't work, Shannon's is better. Here's an example of why:

The resource immediately east of Moscow along with Moscow are both occupied by Russian units and German units surround them with ZOCs on both hexes. That resource can be produced by a factory in Moscow because it can leave an enemy ZOC and enter an enemy ZOC. It does not move through a hex in a ZOC, it moves from one to another enemy ZOC, even if those two ZOCs are both exerted by the same enemy unit.

This actually happens quite often in WiFFE Barb games.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 149
RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans - 5/21/2013 2:42:45 AM   
CrusssDaddy

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 8/6/2004
Status: offline
Does paul need a hug?

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 150
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.201