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CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 12:40:42 PM   
Icedawg


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It's July 42 and I just resized my air groups on Hiyo, Junyo and Soryu and went to do the same on my other carriers, but did not get a resize option for the groups on Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku and either Kaga or Akagi (can't remember which, but one can and one can't). Are the air groups on these CVs hardcoded and can't be changed? I'm kind of bummed out because I intentionally postponed KB operations until I could get those fighter wings resized to 30 (our HR maximum), and now it looks like I'm stuck with (slightly) smaller numbers.

Any ideas?
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 12:49:40 PM   
GreyJoy


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There should be an clear indication if the group is bound to resize or not.
However, to "solve" the problem, divide a 27 zero sentai and use those chutais to fill your CVs

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 1:53:54 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

There should be an clear indication if the group is bound to resize or not.
However, to "solve" the problem, divide a 27 zero sentai and use those chutais to fill your CVs


Yeah, I know. It should say "resize to fit ship", but it doesn't. I'll get some screenshots to compare Akagi and Kaga.

I could fill with other air units, but I'd like to use them elsewhere. I like to have my cake and eat it too I guess.

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 2:09:33 PM   
Icedawg


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Actually, Hiryu and Soryu show the problem the best. These screenshots are from a save earlier in the turn. Both CVs are in port. Their air groups had been transferred to an airfield while the ships upgraded. Now that the ships have finished the upgrade, I am about to transfer them back to the ship for resizing.

If you look, you'll see Hiryu's air group has nothing in the red box I've drawn while the Soryu's shows a message saying "no resize remaining". Both were transferred back to their respective ships. Once there, the Soryu's air group could "resize to fit ship" and I resized it to 30. The Hiryu's had no "resize to fit ship" message and, therefore, couldn't be resized.

So, why could Soryu's air group resize, but Hiryu's could not. I did the same exact process on both. The only difference is the text/lack of text in the red box in the screenshots below. Is Hiryu's air group
hard coded to not be able to resize while Soryu's is not?






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4
RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 2:10:18 PM   
Icedawg


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And here is Soryu's air group.






Attachment (1)

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 2:12:40 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Actually, Hiryu and Soryu show the problem the best. These screenshots are from a save earlier in the turn. Both CVs are in port. Their air groups had been transferred to an airfield while the ships upgraded. Now that the ships have finished the upgrade, I am about to transfer them back to the ship for resizing.

If you look, you'll see Hiryu's air group has nothing in the red box I've drawn while the Soryu's shows a message saying "no resize remaining". Both were transferred back to their respective ships. Once there, the Soryu's air group could "resize to fit ship" and I resized it to 30. The Hiryu's had no "resize to fit ship" message and, therefore, couldn't be resized.

So, why could Soryu's air group resize, but Hiryu's could not. I did the same exact process on both. The only difference is the text/lack of text in the red box in the screenshots below. Is Hiryu's air group
hard coded to not be able to resize while Soryu's is not?



Good questions, Icedawg. You've stumped me-I've no idea why the two different messages are being displayed.

Might it have to do with the DBB mod you're playing perhaps?d

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 2:23:50 PM   
Icedawg


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Actually, I think I might be onto something. Someone with more knowledge of "code" may be able to shed light on this if there's anything to my idea. Here goes.

I just went back to the July 1st turn - the turn the CV air groups were scheduled to undergo an automatic resize. The air groups that can't currently resize had already been transferred to an airfield in anticipation of the CV undergoing upgrade prior to July 1st. Therefore, they underwent their auto upgrade on an airfield, not aboard the CV. Those that currently can resize had been left on board their carrier on July 1st, so they underwent their auto upgrade aboard ship.

Curious coincidence here! It seems as though Japanese CV air groups have to be left aboard the CV when they auto resize on July 1st. Otherwise, you lose the ability to resize them in the future! This really stinks. I like the idea of being able to tweak the sizes of my organic CV airgroups to fit current needs. Now, at least for four of my CV's, I can no longer do that. Bummer.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 2:57:22 PM   
seille

 

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Mhh, what game version are you running ?
A while ago i reported a bug that prevented those CV air groups from resizing when the air group was
land based at the time the auto resize should occur.

In my case i had these groups (Shokaku and Zuikaku) in Tokyo AF at early July. NO RESIZING.

MichaelM fixed that in one of the last beta versions. If you play without the Beta and can´t go back to end of june
you should follow GreyJoys advice and use additional fighter fragments groups aboard your Carriers to get to the strength you want.

< Message edited by seille -- 4/12/2013 3:13:14 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 3:11:03 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

Mhh, what game version are you running ?
A while ago i reported a bug that prevented those CV air groups from resizing when the air group was
land based at the time the auto resize should occur.

In my case i had these groups (Shokaku and Zuikaku) in Tokyo AF at early June. NO RESIZING.

MichaelM fixed that in one of the last beta versions. If you play without the Beta and can´t go back to end of june
you should follow GreyJoys advice and use additional fighter fragments groups aboard your Carriers to get to the strength you want.


Yup, that's it. Dang.

Can't really use the beta as we are using DaBigBabesC. The change in the beta that requires one aviation support per engine would be killer in this mod as it already has a reduced number of aviation support for both sides. Playing as the Japanese, I am already woefully short of aviation support as is. My opponent would be absolutely dead in the water trying to support his 4Es. Until DaBigBabes itself is modified, I don't think it will work with the latest patch.

(This is not knocking the patch. The change to one support per engine is GREAT. It's just that DaBigBabes reduced the number of aviation support to hinder air ops. With the mod and the patch, there would be no planes flying at all.)

Looks like GreyJoy's solution is going to have to work.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 9
RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 8:11:25 PM   
geofflambert


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I'm only familiar with the allied side, but if a carrier airgroup has "will resize to ## in mo/yr" it cannot be resized. If it does not state that and if you click on "no resize allowed" thrice it will give you a field to enter any number you want up to the carriers capacity. The squadron in question must be the only one on the carrier for this to work. It will only give you the field if the squadron is on a carrier, not if it's at an airbase. I highly reccomend resizing a fighter, a torpedo plane and a bomber squadron to the maximum size on your largest carrier and these will be training squadrons for you. Wait until the resize occurs and then transfer them to an airbase and load to the max plus 25% recruits and get to the training. Remember order "no replacements" so that only the original number of planes is in the squadron. I have currently three such Allied sqds. of size 90 with 120 pilots and only 18 planes (more than enough to train all those pilots). If you later want to use that sqd. on a carrier do the same procedure and resize it down to the appropriate size.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/12/2013 8:13:28 PM >

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 8:20:59 PM   
geofflambert


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Along those lines, one more thing. When you get new squadrons with say only 2 planes available to start and they are not carrier trained, leave the "no replacements" order alone and do not fill out the squadron. You may then put 5 such squadrons on a training carrier and in 90 days, et voila, you have 5 more carrier trained squadrons.

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 9:09:12 PM   
btbw

 

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Little carriers groups can be resized any time. Replace them with your stuck groups.

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/12/2013 9:27:49 PM   
seille

 

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As i wrote this is a bug. Fleet CV airgroups beeing on land at the time of their scheduled (auto) resize, here 1st july 1942, will not resize and you lose ANY resize option for these airgroups.
In the Beta this is already fixed. So never move your CV airgroups to a land base when the resize date is close. Or deactivate the resize option during that time.

(in reply to btbw)
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 2:50:14 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I'm only familiar with the allied side, but if a carrier airgroup has "will resize to ## in mo/yr" it cannot be resized. If it does not state that and if you click on "no resize allowed" thrice it will give you a field to enter any number you want up to the carriers capacity. The squadron in question must be the only one on the carrier for this to work. It will only give you the field if the squadron is on a carrier, not if it's at an airbase. I highly reccomend resizing a fighter, a torpedo plane and a bomber squadron to the maximum size on your largest carrier and these will be training squadrons for you. Wait until the resize occurs and then transfer them to an airbase and load to the max plus 25% recruits and get to the training. Remember order "no replacements" so that only the original number of planes is in the squadron. I have currently three such Allied sqds. of size 90 with 120 pilots and only 18 planes (more than enough to train all those pilots). If you later want to use that sqd. on a carrier do the same procedure and resize it down to the appropriate size.


We have a HR in our game that limits resizes to a max of 30 planes. If it weren't for the HR, this would be a great idea.

(in reply to geofflambert)
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 2:53:25 AM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

As i wrote this is a bug. Fleet CV airgroups beeing on land at the time of their scheduled (auto) resize, here 1st july 1942, will not resize and you lose ANY resize option for these airgroups.
In the Beta this is already fixed. So never move your CV airgroups to a land base when the resize date is close. Or deactivate the resize option during that time.


Hey, just thought of something. Could my opponent and I upgrade to the beta patch for 1 turn, then go back to the latest official patch that we're using now? That way, I could use the beta to fix the resize issue, then go back to the version we're currently using.

Would this work?

(in reply to seille)
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 3:51:06 AM   
geofflambert


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That's probably a good rule, has anyone done any research on it (in the sense that no one ever did that)? But I'm dense, I don't understand why you're having problems resizing sqds. (that are allowed to be resized) as you stated in your original question.

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 4:12:53 AM   
n01487477


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Hey, just thought of something. Could my opponent and I upgrade to the beta patch for 1 turn, then go back to the latest official patch that we're using now? That way, I could use the beta to fix the resize issue, then go back to the version we're currently using.

Would this work?

Nope, can't go back

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 4:33:17 AM   
Alfred

 

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For the record, this is not really a bug. Read all the posts from michaelm in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3260001&mpage=1&key=airgroup%2Cresizing�

What michaelm did in beta 1123d was to add some "idiot proofing" to the code to self correct human error. The intention is still to have a distinction between land and ship based units. Without the distinction the code could be exploited by a human player.

Alfred

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 4:37:06 AM   
geofflambert


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There's another consideration if you have a limiting house rule. The number of planes actually is nearly moot for a training squadron. The whole point would be limiting the number of pilots training, and it makes no difference if the sqd. max planes is 1 or 90. You could put any number of pilots in the sqd and achieve the same result. I've encountered no penalty when my squadron temporarily has more pilots than it's supposedly allowed to have. I think an exception might be allowing overages in Group Reserve, but on occasion I've seen what I thought to be evidence of reserve pilots gaining experience. I'm not sure about that, though. Consensus? Speak up.

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 4:52:13 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

For the record, this is not really a bug. Read all the posts from michaelm in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3260001&mpage=1&key=airgroup%2Cresizing?

What michaelm did in beta 1123d was to add some "idiot proofing" to the code to self correct human error. The intention is still to have a distinction between land and ship based units. Without the distinction the code could be exploited by a human player.

Alfred

"not really (being) a bug" is not the same as being correct, but I know you know this without me telling you, but I thought for the discussion's sake I should point that out. I'd rather either do the right thing or know when I'm doing a wrong thing and be cognizant of my own culpability. Should sqds. be able to resize beyond size 30 say, or not? As the Allies (the only side I'm experienced with) I immediately resize one fighter squadron upward because I know that the initial proportions of fighters to bombers (on both sides) was not well advised and I see no reason to be held to the errors of history after 12/7 in a game, for what are thinking humans for in this game if forced to repeat them throughout?

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 9:53:14 AM   
seille

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

For the record, this is not really a bug. Read all the posts from michaelm in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3260001&mpage=1&key=airgroup%2Cresizing?

What michaelm did in beta 1123d was to add some "idiot proofing" to the code to self correct human error. The intention is still to have a distinction between land and ship based units. Without the distinction the code could be exploited by a human player.

Alfred


Sorry Alfred, but i had some Email conversation with him beside this and it was not intended to loose the resize option when the
air unit is at land. So this is a bug. It has nothing to do with "idiotism" to have some CV air units at land at 07/42. If you don´t know about the bug
like me a while ago or the thread opener then you have a problem. Rare, but still a problem.
Call it a bug, call it wrong engine behavior. Doesn´t really matter.

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 1:39:16 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

For the record, this is not really a bug. Read all the posts from michaelm in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3260001&mpage=1&key=airgroup%2Cresizing�

What michaelm did in beta 1123d was to add some "idiot proofing" to the code to self correct human error. The intention is still to have a distinction between land and ship based units. Without the distinction the code could be exploited by a human player.

Alfred


So I'm an idiot for transferring CV air groups to a base before the ship goes to the shipyard for upgrade? I thought this was standard protocol. Off load the planes so you can either keep using them or keep them training.

I've been called an idiot for many reasons (and in many cases, they were good reasons ), but I'd hardly call transferring these squadrons to an air base cause for the idiot label. Maybe if I had read every post on this forum, I would have been aware of this behavior of the game engine, but I just don't have that much free time. Perhaps when I retire in 25 years . . . .

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 4:50:32 PM   
geofflambert


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So you're just a young pup, Icedawg? How long is that in Dawg years?

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RE: CV air group resize - 4/13/2013 5:58:16 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

So you're just a young pup, Icedawg? How long is that in Dawg years?


Not young, just poor. I've got to work until 70 at least, and then I have to die by the time I'm 80, otherwise, I'll be living on a park bench at 81. Thank goodness I have high cholesterol levels!

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