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1950s US/Soviet Mod Data

 
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1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/11/2013 7:09:27 PM   
dholedays

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dholedays

So as for back story, I've been thinking of a situation where the Hungarian revolution is much less of a violent uprising, in that most of the Hungarian government and military end up concurring with the sentiment of the demonstrators and oust Mátyás Rákosi and the ÁVH in a mostly bloodless way, and the new government is recognized by the west. Hungary then decides to withdraw from the WP and declare itself neutral. The Soviet Union, already having conceded troop reduction agreements to Poland as a result of "Polish October," becomes paranoid that it's control over the eastern bloc is slipping away and invades Hungary. Since Hungary has officially declared it's neutrality as a sovereign nation, NATO intervenes, and an international crisis ensues.

So my intention for the mod is to have NATO vs. the Soviet Union, with Hungary allied with NATO. I still haven't firmly decided on a name. I like BG's "Showdown on the Danube," though I was also thinking "Conflict on the Danube" had a nicer acronym, though it doesn't sound nearly as snazzy lol.


Currently completed:

US Infantry and Russian Strelkovy (Strelkovaya?) Divisions (~1954-56)
74 Forces
57 Vehicles
67 Weapons

1 Scenario - "Onhaye" : US and Soviet infantry divisions fight over a major river crossing.

Download link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28570084/estab.zip

====================

Hi all, I've been thinking about making a fictional mod about Soviet and US forces in the 1950s maybe 60s for a while now, and I've just decided to pick up BftB again to try and make it.

I've been putting it off for a long time since creating such a mod seems like a daunting task, but its been on my mind for long enough that I am going to give it a shot. I was hoping that I could get some advice here on these forums.

The problem I'm having is figuring out where to get all the accuracy and penetration numbers. While penetration looks pretty well defined, "accuracy" seems kind of ambiguous. I'm guessing the accuracy numbers are hit percentages versus some standard sized target? If so does anyone know what the name of the standard is, so I could search for it and maybe find some data.

I also predict though that I will probably have to do some estimation of the accuracy and penetration of various weapons, but I'm not really sure how the accuracy and penetration of various weapons should scale with range. Is there a particular function you would recommend? (linear, quadratic, etc). I'm also not sure about where to find many other parameters such as burst radius.

I'm not really looking to make a particularly historically accurate mod, since 1) It's my first modding attempt, 2) It's a sort of fantasy scenario 3) I'm working with a game engine designed for late WWII west front anyways. As long as things perform in the game as you'd reasonably expect them to perform I'd be happy.

Lastly does anyone know any good books regarding equipment, orbats, and doctrine from this era? I'd be willing to put in a mild effort to acquire them.

Sorry for the long post.
TL;DR What is accuracy, also what is the best way to guess various parameters if I can't find data.

[Edit: another point]

< Message edited by dholedays -- 5/20/2013 2:13:10 PM >
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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/11/2013 11:08:17 PM   
dholedays

 

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Update: I've found an absolute treasure trove of Soviet orbats over at Armoured Acorn, covering 1954 to 1964, just the period I was interested in! I still need to find similar info for US forces, as well as a whole bunch of other things, but I'm definately getting excited.

[PS: Apparently I'm not allowed to post links, but for anyone whose interested, those orbats can be found at www dot armouredacorn.com/Orbats/Soviet/Default dot htm. It's worth checking out, there's tons of cool icons and stuff]

(in reply to dholedays)
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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 12:40:30 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dholedays

Hi all, I've been thinking about making a fictional mod about Soviet and US forces in the 1950s maybe 60s for a while now, and I've just decided to pick up BftB again to try and make it.

I've been putting it off for a long time since creating such a mod seems like a daunting task, but its been on my mind for long enough that I am going to give it a shot. I was hoping that I could get some advice here on these forums.

The problem I'm having is figuring out where to get all the accuracy and penetration numbers. While penetration looks pretty well defined, "accuracy" seems kind of ambiguous. I'm guessing the accuracy numbers are hit percentages versus some standard sized target? If so does anyone know what the name of the standard is, so I could search for it and maybe find some data.

I also predict though that I will probably have to do some estimation of the accuracy and penetration of various weapons, but I'm not really sure how the accuracy and penetration of various weapons should scale with range. Is there a particular function you would recommend? (linear, quadratic, etc). I'm also not sure about where to find many other parameters such as burst radius.


This is an extremely interesting project dholedays. Command Ops on the 1950-51 Korean War campaign (or a fictional NATO vs. Warsaw Pact in 1956) is quite interesting and doable, I think.

As a principle I'd suggest that you look into existing estabs for pieces of equipment more similar to the ones you want to model. From there, you can extrapolate parameters. Probably your initial modeling will be a bit off, but that will get you started and things will start to roll down the hill for you easily.

Regarding how to best approach the problem of determining the accuracy and penetration values: I'd recommend you to PM simovitch - who was the coordinator of the data project for BFTB - and T-28A - one of the coordinators for the upcoming East Front games data project. They have already gone through that, and probably will be delighted to share some insights with you.


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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 12:45:35 AM   
Arjuna


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Good advice BG.

I'd also recommend Dupey "Numbers Predictions and War". Macdonald and Janes were the publishers.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 12:47:18 AM   
wodin


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Sounds superb...would love a CO Korea War..or a fictional CO Cold War gone hot..

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 1:04:52 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Another suggestion: try to focus on a particular operation for starters. That should help you narrow down the ORBATS you should try to identify and work on. You don't need to start by modeling the whole of the US or Soviet Union military organization: just a few significant units, and then work from that. I think it's quite safe to assume that the NKPA was following Red Army organization in general lines, yet in this I might be wrong.

The whole 1:50,000 map collection is available here

http://www.koreanwar.org/html/korean_war_topo_maps.html

and here's the link to the map key

http://www.koreanwar2.org/kwp2/maps/reference/ams150773korea_berkeley_map.pdf

Regarding reading on the campaign, here's there's a smattering of essays and AAR's

http://www.westpoint.edu/history/SitePages/Korean%20War.aspx

and probably there are tons of documentation on the CSGC site.

Map making is tough - yet I find it to be weirdly absorbing. Last night I resumed some mapping work I had left tracing contour lines, and when I checked the clock, I saw it was 1AM

With a topic like this I'd surprised if you couldn't find anyone able and willing to help and make some maps.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 1:29:58 AM   
jimcarravallah

 

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Here's a note in Armchair General regarding source information for orders of battle arranged by era:

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37721

Here's a PDF of a Marine Corps Tables of Organization and Equipment:

http://www.recordsofwar.com/korea/USMC/Box%2019-16.pdf

Here's something about the US Weapons during the war:

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/smallarms/principalweapons.htm

And, here's something from Wikipedia on Korean War weapons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_War_weapons

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 3:29:27 AM   
dholedays

 

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Hey guys, thanks for the pointers! I'll be sure to ask simovitch if he can give me any tips, and "Numbers Predictions and War" sounds like it could be insightful.

Choosing a particular operation and focusing on it sounds wise. I don't know what I would choose at the moment, but I might want to settle on something eventually since as BG said, entire military organizations might be too much to chew on for the first go.

I've given some thought about Korea, but right now I'm not so sure. I certainly don't mind taking a look at it though at least as a starting point, and it will probably be helpful as a source of information on US forces. At the moment though I find myself more interested in modeling Soviet forces than North Korean or Chinese ones, and I want to include some postwar WP equipment like the AK-47 and the T-54/55. From what I understand the NK and the CCF were entirely equipped with leftovers from WWII.

Though for europe, I'm not sure what kind of operation I would do yet. It would have to be fictional, of course. The Berlin Blockade looks like a promising flashpoint, although its a few years earlier than the timeframe I was thinking of.

Right now I'm still mostly focused on trying to get data for basic things like equipment and organization.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 5:10:08 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dholedays
I've given some thought about Korea, but right now I'm not so sure. I certainly don't mind taking a look at it though at least as a starting point, and it will probably be helpful as a source of information on US forces. At the moment though I find myself more interested in modeling Soviet forces than North Korean or Chinese ones, and I want to include some postwar WP equipment like the AK-47 and the T-54/55. From what I understand the NK and the CCF were entirely equipped with leftovers from WWII.


Fair enough, dholedays I think you're on the right track about North Korean and Chinese equipment. Any way you go, it'll be interesting. Keep us posted on how you're progressing with it or if you find trouble with the data tools.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 6:40:07 AM   
Arjuna


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Why not a hypothetical set in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising. Eg assume that NATO intervened.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 7:41:14 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Why not a hypothetical set in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising. Eg assume that NATO intervened.


That's a very good "Showdown on the Danube" is indeed a catchy name for the project

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 1:48:21 PM   
dholedays

 

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quote:

Why not a hypothetical set in 1956 during the Hungarian uprising. Eg assume that NATO intervened.


Hey that sounds like a good idea. Thanks!

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/12/2013 9:35:08 PM   
dholedays

 

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BTW do the vehicle road and cross country speeds matter at all? Or speed in the game wholly determined by the speed parameter of a force?

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/13/2013 12:56:27 AM   
Arjuna


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Both have an affect. It's complicated. A force's speed is limited by the max speed of its vehicles. It is also limited by the terrain movement modifiers and these are applied to either the motorised or cc move rates depending on the type of terrain.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/13/2013 4:38:59 AM   
dholedays

 

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Sorry, I realized previous content of this post would probably be better suited to a PM.

Anyways, so far it's been pretty slow going. I guess part of it is because I'm still getting used to the tools, but there's also a lot of looking up stuff and reading. I think it took me two hours to put in a single vehicle, I spent some time trying to decide on reliability and ronsonabilty numbers, and also trying to figure out how to convert to 30 degrees equivalent slope. I think it should speed up once I come up with systematic ways of assigning these types of things.

The data contained in the default estabs has been a big help so far. I've been basing many of the weapons on existing ones and then changing various parameters. So far:
Stg 44 -> Ak-47
M2HB -> DShKM
M1919 MMG -> SGM
1.5cm Drilling -> ZPU-2
.303 Bren -> RPD
PzShreck -> B-10 RR

I'm not sure how justified some of these are, but it gets the job done I guess.

< Message edited by dholedays -- 4/13/2013 8:24:21 PM >

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/13/2013 4:56:43 AM   
Arjuna


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Yes it does.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/14/2013 1:14:51 AM   
dholedays

 

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I've been adding some US infantry weapons today.

The M1 Rifle and M1 Carbine are back, along with the M2 Carbine (Almost the same as M1 but with fully-automatic fire). The M3 SMG returns as the M3A1, and the Bazooka is getting upgraded to the 3.5in M20 "Super Bazooka."

So far I haven't found any info on the equipment loadouts for infantry companies of either side in the 1950s, but at least a little more data is in.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/14/2013 6:49:35 AM   
dholedays

 

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[edit: updated link.]

If anyone wants to have a look at the estab so far, here is a link:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28570084/estab.zip

< Message edited by dholedays -- 4/15/2013 2:45:16 AM >

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/15/2013 2:39:58 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dholedays

If anyone wants to have a look at the estab so far, here is a link:



Just took a quick look. It's shaping up quite nicely, I think :)

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/18/2013 4:38:59 AM   
dholedays

 

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Hi everyone, over the past few days I've managed to put together two regiments' worth of data. I've now got a set of forces for a US Infantry regiment and a Soviet Rifle Regiment. I've also put together a little test scenario putting the two regiments against each other, too. I've updated the download link above, so you can check it out.

So far I haven't found too much information about the organization of US forces. Most of what I've been able to find is that the US forces were pretty similar to those in WWII, but with "more automatic weapons." So for now that is what I am basing them off of. I'm hoping I will find more specific information, such as specific numbers of vehicles and equipment.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/18/2013 5:01:45 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Loads and works fine under 261 (the upcoming final patch), dhole.

Just played the first hour of the scenario, so I can't say much about how the forces play out, but I got a good feeling

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/19/2013 11:05:07 PM   
dholedays

 

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Sweet! I'm also glad to get a second opinion, even if its just a quick glance.

I've discovered some nice T/O&Es at the Combined Arms Research Library Digital Library for US Infantry battalion, regiment and divisions in the early 1950s. This will definitely help me out the american forces, which until now have been mostly copies of the default ones.

< Message edited by dholedays -- 4/19/2013 11:07:50 PM >

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/20/2013 12:46:40 AM   
Tophat1812

 

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Whats the soviet T/O&E look like? Glad you are trying to tackle this monster.

So are you envisioning NATO(basically US forces)using airborne troops to grab an airfield and fly in troops to Hungary? Or violate Austrian neutrality and make an armored dash into Hungary? Remember its 56' and the French and British have dreams of acquiring certain canal concessions in Egypt. T-54's vs M-48's sounds interesting.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/20/2013 5:53:39 AM   
Perturabo


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I like this project.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/21/2013 5:32:22 PM   
dholedays

 

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I'm basing the Soviet T/O&E primarily off of the orbats over at Armoured Acorn, as they're the most comprehensive source of data that I have been able to find for this time period so far. Then for numbers on personnel and basic infantry equipment (rifles, etc) I have had to stitch together from many disparate sources and then fill in the remaining holes with guesswork.

As for the scenario concerns, they just seem so far down the road right now, I don't feel inclined to worry about them. I'm really aiming more for "ballpark" historical accuracy with this project anyways. Putting togther estabs is a massive amount of research work. I think I already have a new found respect for the default db, it is really impressive once you've had a taste of trying to make one yourself. Right now my goal is to get several different types of divisions modeled in the game for each side, and have things behave in the game as you'd reasonably expect them to. I also want to include some "building blocks" scenarios to help people (including myself) put together anything they might fancy using the mod.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/21/2013 5:56:39 PM   
dholedays

 

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[Edit: Moved to its own thread.]

< Message edited by dholedays -- 4/21/2013 9:36:45 PM >

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/22/2013 12:46:50 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dholedays

As for the scenario concerns, they just seem so far down the road right now, I don't feel inclined to worry about them. I'm really aiming more for "ballpark" historical accuracy with this project anyways. Putting togther estabs is a massive amount of research work. I think I already have a new found respect for the default db, it is really impressive once you've had a taste of trying to make one yourself. Right now my goal is to get several different types of divisions modeled in the game for each side, and have things behave in the game as you'd reasonably expect them to. I also want to include some "building blocks" scenarios to help people (including myself) put together anything they might fancy using the mod.

Excellent approach. I would even limit your initial effort to say just one division type per side. Then try it out on an existing map and see how it plays. It's always bets to try a little, test a little.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/29/2013 5:57:06 PM   
dholedays

 

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I've been updating the estab, added lots of new stuff. I've added the download link to the front of the first post so it is easier to find. In the .zip file I've included a scenario file showing most of the forces I have completed so far (the scenario itself is empty, you have to open it up with the editor to see the OOB).

Also I've been updating the basic US infantry forces, they should reflect the 1950s cold war period much better now.

< Message edited by dholedays -- 4/29/2013 11:52:08 PM >

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 4/30/2013 2:29:30 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Nice, I see you've starting adding AFVs.

By the way, I found this map of the Austrian-Hungarian frontier, which you might find interesting

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/western_europe/txu-oclc-6472044-nl33-3.jpg

It's 1:250,000 but I think it will be fine, if you can supplement it with aerial images of the time to determine vegetation with more detail.

You can reach the AMS Western Europe collection here

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/western_europe/

For some reason, the maps covering Western Germany (or most of it) aren't available.

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RE: 1950s US/Soviet Mod Data - 5/11/2013 10:40:26 PM   
dholedays

 

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That's a pretty nice collection of maps there!

Also I have finally completed a full division for each side! (details at the top of the thread)

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