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Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:07:48 AM   
Mehring

 

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Can anyone explain them?

Usually they are very low and, as I understand it, their contribution is not to be measured in the same way as infantry or armour. I'm not surprised, then, by this example here of 515 BM How Rgt which has just contributed 2 starting CV to an attack. Its elements were previously around 1 FAT. ToE is, in effect 100% as the shortfall here is in support, this made up by HQ. Morale and experience are good. Supply/ammo has just been used so was probably 100% before attack. This is a fairly normal CV in my experience, somewhere between 0 and 2.

In passing, not fleshing out ToE support, even when available in pools, seems to be a condition of 1942 Russian arty.

I've also noticed this with sappers but nowhere near as extreme, CV can sometimes be represented at many times its normal starting value...




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< Message edited by Mehring -- 4/11/2013 11:23:49 AM >


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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:13:55 AM   
Mehring

 

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Here's another example of an arty unit that just defended twice, the first was a hold, the second a retreat. In the first attack its starting CV was 89! The second was only 3, although it remains, and doubtless started both combats at almost full strength ToE. Presumably it has been resupplied between turns.

How is this wild starting CV fluctuation to be explained?




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< Message edited by Mehring -- 4/11/2013 11:15:06 AM >


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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:19:00 AM   
Mehring

 

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The only difference I can see is the first battle had a fort of 2...




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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:19:41 AM   
Mehring

 

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while the second has a fort of 1, but I can show plenty of other battles where level 2 forts don't inflate CV.




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< Message edited by Mehring -- 4/11/2013 11:23:07 AM >


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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:35:20 AM   
morvael


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This is the problem of artillery in given system (which affects the Soviets more than the Germans) - it's effect is not pre-measured (gun elements have 0CV impact, the only CV strength you get from artillery units is their support squads). Artillery affects battle by destroying and disrupting enemy elements, thus reducing their final CV. This is not something you can compare using CV numbers only. Only experienced guessing will help here, to gauge the potential of artillery in battle.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:35:24 AM   
The Guru

 

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Man, you have a gift for bringing up weird stuff. That and your killer biplanes...

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:42:26 AM   
morvael


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Nominal CV of artillery units by definition is low (0). To quote my own TOE overview a 44 Breakthrough Artillery Division with 10296 men and 400 guns has expected CV of 1.13 - way lower than some of the combat brigades (1.3 for an Airborne Brigade with 3562 men and 44 guns). How's the one calculated in the final battle, I don't know. Perhaps it is based on some effects the unit had in battle (thus artillery may see an increase if it managed to destoy a lot of elements).

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:46:47 AM   
Mehring

 

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morvael, that doesn't explain why starting cv, even for the same unit, should be 89 in one attack and then 3 a few moments later in the second. Support hasn't changed, it's something else.

Thank you Guru. :)

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:48:26 AM   
morvael


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This is not starting, it's final. Or is it?

< Message edited by morvael -- 4/11/2013 11:49:35 AM >

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:51:45 AM   
morvael


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I found this:
quote:

15.3.2.6. Artillery and Fort Levels
To better simulate the ability to pre-register fire locations, the effectiveness of artillery fire is related to the fort level of the hex containing the firing artillery. The higher the fort level, the more effective artillery in that hex will be in combat. Due to their ability to participate in multiple battles, artillery support units attached to headquarters units do not receive any benefit from fort levels when committed to combat, so this benefit is limited to artillery combat units as well as artillery support units directly attached to fortified units (7.5.2).


but this should not apply to SU from HQ.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 11:57:49 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

In passing, not fleshing out ToE support, even when available in pools, seems to be a condition of 1942 Russian arty.



This is because the unit doesn't need more, check out my toe overview, any unit having a value over 100% in the last column will not fill to the max with support squads (which in turns reduces it's current TOE%, but such is the downside of this "optimalization").

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 12:04:02 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This is not starting, it's final. Or is it?

Only starting CV is shown individually. Final CV is collective for entire battle.

You're right, forts shouldn't effect HQ arty support and if they did, surely, as you explained, it wouldn't show as a CV value, arty works differently from infantry and tanks.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 12:32:50 PM   
gingerbread


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I assume this is with FoW?

FoW adds points, it's not a multiplier.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 1:02:07 PM   
Mehring

 

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It is from a FOW game, but they are my units in all cases. and the report necessarily follows the battle. Even if the game were to attempt to hide my unit's CV from me (not as stupid as it might sound if you want to remove player omniscience) doing so after the battle defeats the object of the exercise.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 1:29:08 PM   
delatbabel


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All I can say is that a large number of artillery tubes does seem to be the best way of blowing up a fortified stack of German infantry. Even sometimes when sappers won't do the job of knocking the fort down, a stack of artillery can be lethal. Other than the anecdotal advice of "lethal" I can't give you any quantitative numbers (i.e. 400 arty tubes == X number of disrupted squads, etc).

I'm a big fan and I probably build at least twice the number of artillery divisions (including rocket artillery) than most other Russian players do. They get used against the Finns first, who really don't like dying in numbers.


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RE: Arty CVs - 4/11/2013 7:42:51 PM   
Walloc

 

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I dont know the inner working of the combat engine so i cant say this is correct, but my observations from doing quite a few tests on the combat engine is as follows.

Arty CV is more often than not, wildly inflated in its "initial" CV in combat reports or rather what its shown as. As in the case of the first battle. IMO u shouldnt account the CV for arty "at all" if u wana find the correct values of ur CV u should "manually" discount their CVs generally speaking.

In the case of ur two examples, while not detailed, that would have helped, i see the following happening.

1st Example
Inf rifle div initial CV 29. Arty 89. Discount the arty. So the hex has 29 CV. Times 1.5 half for succesfull leader ship tests = 44. Double that as u have fort 1 left = 88.
Thats damn near the modified CV post battle of 84, presumably u had some disruptiosn and the 1.5 for leader ship roll is ofc varible, so u cant use this as a hard number Still, my explanation seem possible so far.

2nd Example.
Inf Divs initial CV 28, discounting the art CV, times 1.5 for succesfull leadership rolls = 42. No fort post battle this time to modify CV so u have end with 42, vs actual modified CV of 55. Obviously there is a difference there between the 42 and the 55, but remember that the 1.5 is just a number "randomly" set by me. What the actual leadership rolls modification are, differs depending on succesfullness of the actual roll.

So presumably the reason u get a held and 88 in modified CV on the first battles, is IMO most likely from the doubling of the CV u get from the fort 1 left post battle= the modified CV. Which isnt there in the 2nd combat and this accounts for the different modified CVs in battle 1 and 2. Hench this the reason why u lose the 2nd battle. It prolly has nothing to do with the arty CV. Also the hidden factors cuz i dont see the detailed report is what the disruptions are in the 2 battles. All things given u will have less elements in the 2nd combat, some being damaged/destroyed in the first and higher fatigue as disruprtion from teh 1st battle is converted to fatigue after the battle.

I have found if u look at many many battles with this in mind the explanation i can come up with is the CV that arty no matter what it might say in the initial combat reports. Is that it contribuates with insignificant amounts of CV, in line with the actual CV the unit has, when u check its CV out of combat.

This btw doesnt in any way mean that arty is useless. If properbly used and under rigth circumstances it can cause huge amounts of disruptions lowering the enemy modified CV, it just doenst have much of a positive CV effect for ur own forces.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 4/11/2013 8:20:01 PM >

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/12/2013 2:02:33 AM   
turtlefang

 

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There was a long discussion about artillery on the forum a while back. Walloc's observations match what everyone ended up concluding. A few other points:

1) Most artillery, no matter the caliber, doesn't cause many losses. Based on test I have run in the editor, artillery end up causing disruptions or preventing units from joining the defense or attack. This can really swing the battle dramatically one way or the other with just a few good rolls. Artillery CV value are meaningless.

2) Generally, the bigger the caliber, the more times the artillery will fire in any given combat. Larger calibers will usually fire at long, medium and short range. This gives them three chances to disrupt an attacker. Medium caliber start firing at medium and short. Small caliber/direct fire at short range.

3) The exception seems to be 82mm and 120mm mortars. These artillery units do cause losses and in fairly good numbers. As these get added to the Russian Infantry divisions over time, thier kill rate goes up. Add a 120mm regiment as a SU to a defense stack, it can really punish the Germans if the Russia's win or hold. On the other hand, these units don't seem to get as many disruptions as other artillery units. And if you can get the experience level up on these mortar SUs, you can have some real killers here. This is also true on the German side but the Germans simply don't have as many added to thier TOE as the Russian.

4) AT guns score kills when armor's attacking, few kills on the attack. Pelton raised an issue earlier regarding German 88s not firing. Don't know if that has been looked at or fixed at this point.

5) And while a little off topic, Soviet flak units can cause more German Air Force losses than the Soviet Air Force up to 43 if you put a flak regiment with each army, front and STAVKA HQ.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/13/2013 5:43:31 PM   
Mehring

 

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Thanks for trying to explain this to me, but I don't think I'm going to get it. Having hurt my head studying many more examples than those I've posted, it's too inconsistent for me to see any logic in it. Not being mathematically minded, I'll just go back to believing the designers got it right.

The arty CV does count for something though, I've seen it generate some 'held' results where otherwise a rout would probably have occurred. On the bright side, it does give a bit of unpredictability to combat results which is much needed, particularly with '41 Russian defenders.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/13/2013 6:00:11 PM   
Flaviusx


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Mehring, just forget about CV with arty and imagine it as a negative die roll modifier on the enemy. This is what it boils down to.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/13/2013 6:37:44 PM   
turtlefang

 

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Flav is right on target regarding artillery CVs. If you want a few simple rules rather than trying to develop a math formula (which I won't help you with as I don't really try to develop them), these are the ones I've come up with:

1) The more artillery the better, whether on offense or defense, assuming Ammo is not a problem.
2) The bigger the caliber, usually the more often a positive result as define by a distruption or kills. They simply fire more often.
3) Mortars kill more often than other artillery; other artillery cause more distruptions which can really swing the battle odds a lot by stopping a unit in its tracks.
4) AT guns and AAA guns are good defending against armor, not so good on the attack.
5) One German artillery tube = 2 to 2.5 Soviet tubes of the same caliber (approximately) in effect.
6) Experience impacts artillery results greatly. Highly experienced artillery are highly effective. I'm not so sure about moral.
7) A fort increases artillery effectiveness by about a factor of 2 on defense.

Summarize. More artillery is better, bigger artillery is better, artillery is more effective on defense especially in a fort, experience counts

And because artillery usually a hit or miss affair - you either distrupt or you don't - you do get big variations in results. Its just that the variations get less as you start adding in all the factors in the summary statements.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/14/2013 11:23:26 AM   
delatbabel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
6) Experience impacts artillery results greatly. Highly experienced artillery are highly effective. I'm not so sure about moral.


None of my artillery have morals. They kill people at long range. It's highly immoral indeed.


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RE: Arty CVs - 4/14/2013 4:19:13 PM   
gingerbread


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

It is from a FOW game, but they are my units in all cases. and the report necessarily follows the battle. Even if the game were to attempt to hide my unit's CV from me (not as stupid as it might sound if you want to remove player omniscience) doing so after the battle defeats the object of the exercise.


There is no way to see individual units post-battle CV (where more than one participated on a side), so I can't understand your point.

In any case, what I meant about FoW adding point is that any and all units in a battle can have CV points added - the span seems to be up to 10 pts on the counter/equivalent which is then multiplied by 10 (as are all counter values, 15.6.2.4.) and modified by terrain & fort before listed in the units participating list.

APPENDIX A tells that Art have 0 CV. The 73 support squads would nominally have ~0.2 on the counter so 2 in the battle (before terrain & forts).

BTW, your unit have 73 out of a needed 72 support, so the rest have been sent back.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/15/2013 12:20:31 PM   
Mehring

 

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Are you saying FOW distorts counter values of your own units as well as the enemy? That's good, I never know that. And also the report you only see after the battle? Why bother fogging what has already happened?

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/15/2013 1:45:14 PM   
gingerbread


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If you play a turn Hu vs Hu you will see that the report is the same for both sides, that means FoW is in effect for both players.




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RE: Arty CVs - 4/15/2013 2:16:16 PM   
Mehring

 

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The identical reports may just mean that FOW doesn't affect the reports. Why should it? I couldn't find any reference in the manual.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/15/2013 3:27:44 PM   
gingerbread


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Very well, run a battle or two yourself both with & w/o FoW.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/16/2013 9:02:11 AM   
cpt flam


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I would rather think that the report is the same but another way
say you are axis:
when you attack, you suffer FoW and Russia will see same report
when you look at an opponent attack you will have what saw russia

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/16/2013 10:41:49 AM   
gingerbread


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{
Identical reports
FoW on
}
==> FoW in effect for both sides in the report

As suggested, run a battle w & w/o FoW and check the reports.

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RE: Arty CVs - 4/23/2013 11:27:34 PM   
hooooper

 

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On the subject of surreal combat values, I have this example from my rematch with Bomazz. It's not just artillery, either. Sometime other support units can have ludicrous values - German pioneer battalions for example.




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