SUPPLY PROBLEM
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SUPPLY PROBLEM
Supply issue again. Maybe the answer is obvious, but it's not to me. Apologies if I'm missing somehting. Can anyone (Panther staff included) tell me why the units in the pic would not be able to trace a supply route? The supplying base and HQ is just off pic, about 1km further back, at the end of the strong blue line (in Elden). There are no Axis units anywhere near it (I know, I surrendered to check) - and I mean nothing within at least 2kms anywhere along the big road between the base and the units the other side of the intact Arnhem highway bridge - except those Axis units at the other side of the front line of course. Can they be the cause? But if so, how would front line units ever get supplied? It's been like this ever since those units went over the bridge - ie; this isn't a problem with the 'historical' nature of the supply line box updating - there has NEVER been an Axis unit anywhere near this supply route, save those beyond the FLOT.
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Here's the bigger pic (below). Why have those units over the rail bridge got supply, but not those over the highway bridge?
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
And lastly, the surrender pic, so you can see where the Axis units are:
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Several points:
1) Supply status is 'semi-static' ~ it is only updated during a supply event ~ either one of the routine supply in the morning or evening, or an emergency supply run. It is then 'open or blocked' until the next attempt (the failure or success of which depends on the 'instantaneous' condition of the route, not the 'reported' status at the last run.
The Bor HQ is probably in the same supply state as the other elements in the bridgehead, just that it got a delivery at a different moment than the failed deliveries around it.
2) The presence of an AT unit on the Road @ B.2, the AT and Flak units to the WNW and the Infantry on the river bank to the ESE of the crossing are plenty to prevent movement of the supply 'runs' across the open bridge in good weather and daylight.
At night time, I'd expect the run to be successful.
A carpet of units can 'help' the movement of supply slightly, but the open section to the south of the river is interdicted by heavy weapons in large numbers...
You can see that the AT element in the River bend south of the river is also interdicted by enemy presence.
3) The RR crossing is on a concave bend, the enemy is prevented from 'flanking the bridge'. The Rd crossing is on a convex bend, and the enemy has troops 'behind it' on both flanks, plus a significantly higher 'presence'.
4) The higher presence at the Rd crossing will also place more strain on the supply situation, and increase the number (and thus likelihood of failure) of attempted supply runs. After 'too many' fail to complete I think the further attempt is 'blocked' until visibility worsens.
1) Supply status is 'semi-static' ~ it is only updated during a supply event ~ either one of the routine supply in the morning or evening, or an emergency supply run. It is then 'open or blocked' until the next attempt (the failure or success of which depends on the 'instantaneous' condition of the route, not the 'reported' status at the last run.
The Bor HQ is probably in the same supply state as the other elements in the bridgehead, just that it got a delivery at a different moment than the failed deliveries around it.
2) The presence of an AT unit on the Road @ B.2, the AT and Flak units to the WNW and the Infantry on the river bank to the ESE of the crossing are plenty to prevent movement of the supply 'runs' across the open bridge in good weather and daylight.
At night time, I'd expect the run to be successful.
A carpet of units can 'help' the movement of supply slightly, but the open section to the south of the river is interdicted by heavy weapons in large numbers...
You can see that the AT element in the River bend south of the river is also interdicted by enemy presence.
3) The RR crossing is on a concave bend, the enemy is prevented from 'flanking the bridge'. The Rd crossing is on a convex bend, and the enemy has troops 'behind it' on both flanks, plus a significantly higher 'presence'.
4) The higher presence at the Rd crossing will also place more strain on the supply situation, and increase the number (and thus likelihood of failure) of attempted supply runs. After 'too many' fail to complete I think the further attempt is 'blocked' until visibility worsens.
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Thanks Lieste. That's all helpful, perhaps. It means, in effect, that I can't hold that position, right? Unless, as you say, the night supply is succesful. But the pic was taken at 4.48am, so the evening supply, I assume, failed. Which means, again, that I can't hold this position. What could I do? Pull Bns back to Elden (the rear), say, one by one, for R&R (in this case, rest and resupply)? Seems wrong. If they could get back to Elden for ammo (which I'm sure they could), why can't the jeeps get from Elden across the bridge?
Whilst we're on about it, I would like to know how Frost, in RL, could survive 3 days of fighting cut off (continuing to shoot and fight, I mean, still with ammo), but in the game the units would be out of ammo within a few hours of continuous fighting?
Maybe that isn't on the point. But it's interesting.
Any suggestions as to how to solve the above issue, if the problem is as Lieste says? I think I've established a generous bridgehead. Not generous enough? Can't expand it, for sure. Would have to pull back to the south bank, but would that help?
Whilst we're on about it, I would like to know how Frost, in RL, could survive 3 days of fighting cut off (continuing to shoot and fight, I mean, still with ammo), but in the game the units would be out of ammo within a few hours of continuous fighting?
Maybe that isn't on the point. But it's interesting.
Any suggestions as to how to solve the above issue, if the problem is as Lieste says? I think I've established a generous bridgehead. Not generous enough? Can't expand it, for sure. Would have to pull back to the south bank, but would that help?
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Lieste. This is what the los area tool says:
The Los line confirms that they can't see the bridge, basically. ?????
The Los line confirms that they can't see the bridge, basically. ?????
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Do it the other way around. From each 'area' where there are enemy (and bear in mind that the footprint extends beyond the counter for many formations), see what you can see of the highway...
Even with your image, you have two AT gun units able to project fire onto the bridge... and there might be much more that can project south of the approaches.
I'd expect to have fires on the route over some distance... not enough to destroy a line formation, but enough to prevent free movement of supplies.
You only have to cut the bark in one place and the tree dies.
Even with your image, you have two AT gun units able to project fire onto the bridge... and there might be much more that can project south of the approaches.
I'd expect to have fires on the route over some distance... not enough to destroy a line formation, but enough to prevent free movement of supplies.
You only have to cut the bark in one place and the tree dies.
RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
One day we will have some on map indication of the route, like the trade routes in Civ 5 for example, and maybe even some way to adjust the route it takes....one day [;)]
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
ORIGINAL: phoenix
And lastly, the surrender pic, so you can see where the Axis units are:
It appears there as least one Axis unit between your SEP north and east of the rail bridge and the Supply base to Arnhem using the road route.
Some units at the rail bridge are supplied directly from the SEP, but it appears the anti-tank unit near the north side of the rail bridge cuts any push supply operations to the division base supplying the troops in Arnhem.
End the push to the base south of the river, and there can be no pull from north of the river over the road once the base's residual supplies are exhausted.
Take care,
jim
jim
RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
This is always a thorny issue. In practice a leg inf company would send back a party of men to pick up the ammo if it was too dangerous to bring forward a vehicle. We already model that by moving the drop off point some distance from the end of the route (which is the unit being supplied).
The actual presence of friendlies is only relevant if they are dug in or in some form of urban terrain where there is adequate cover for the man handling of supplies trough trenches and buildings. Otherwise no soldier is going to jump up and stop the bullets with their own body. The delivery vehicles or troops will have to run the gauntlet of enemy fire even as they pass other friendlies hugging the dirt nearby.
To complicate matters, ammo heavier than small arms needs to be delivered by some form of vehicle. You cannot expect troops to manhandle 105mm rounds over anything beyond a hundred metres without exhausting them. If you want to know what this feels like go the gym and try carrying around one of those heavy weights (a 105mm round weighs 30kg) for half an hour while you clamber over benches and any other obstacle that presents itself to simulate troops having to traverse the battlefield.
I will take another look at this but don't expect too much. I'm not about to make it unrealistic.
The actual presence of friendlies is only relevant if they are dug in or in some form of urban terrain where there is adequate cover for the man handling of supplies trough trenches and buildings. Otherwise no soldier is going to jump up and stop the bullets with their own body. The delivery vehicles or troops will have to run the gauntlet of enemy fire even as they pass other friendlies hugging the dirt nearby.
To complicate matters, ammo heavier than small arms needs to be delivered by some form of vehicle. You cannot expect troops to manhandle 105mm rounds over anything beyond a hundred metres without exhausting them. If you want to know what this feels like go the gym and try carrying around one of those heavy weights (a 105mm round weighs 30kg) for half an hour while you clamber over benches and any other obstacle that presents itself to simulate troops having to traverse the battlefield.
I will take another look at this but don't expect too much. I'm not about to make it unrealistic.
RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
peter,
Do you have a save preferably taken before the Resupply event?
Do you have a save preferably taken before the Resupply event?
RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
I have been checking the code and can confirm that enemy FP influence is ignored in a location occupied by friendly troops along a supply route. So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory. I have just doubled the firepower ratio threshold used to determine if a loc along the route is deemed to be hostile. We will need to monitor this carefully less we get to the point where no supply routes are being cut.
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Thanks Dave. I wasn't complaining, or asking for change - just wondering what was going on. Given this sentence in your responses - So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory. - I'm still wondering!! I'll look through the saves to see if I have one that far back (the re-supply event).
Jim. I can't understand what you've said, though it sounds like it might be relevant. Can you explain what you mean? The white AT unit is Polish (Allied). Is that the one you meant?
Jim. I can't understand what you've said, though it sounds like it might be relevant. Can you explain what you mean? The white AT unit is Polish (Allied). Is that the one you meant?
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Dave. The pic above is early hours day 3. I have a save at D2 17.53 and D2 20.00. (Last re-supply would have been at 18.00 day 2, right?) Any use? Let me know and I can send. Pic from the 17.53 save below. Next post pic from 20.00 save. Supply cut across the bridge. Bor HQ still in supply (because not yet over the bridge). It does seem as if what Lieste says is happening has to be it - that the presence of those Axis units across the bridge cuts the supply, no?
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Pic from 20.00, after re-supply update would have occured (I assume?). Much the same. I've used the LOS tool on one of the Axis units, which clearly has clear view of supply route. But does this mean it cuts it? I'm confused, following what you said here, Dave - enemy FP influence is ignored in a location occupied by friendly troops along a supply route. So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory Because, if it's not enemy FP influence cutting things, then what is it? There's nothing else that can cut it, surely?
Be good to know exactly what's happening as it will have a profound impact on tactics in terms of where to site bases and how much care needs to be taken to keep supply routes clear.
Be good to know exactly what's happening as it will have a profound impact on tactics in terms of where to site bases and how much care needs to be taken to keep supply routes clear.
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
I'm finding this very interesting.
Where supply is abstracted in game, it's very hard to tell what is going on with it in many situations.
It will be good to know what is going on in this situation as a learning exercise.
Where supply is abstracted in game, it's very hard to tell what is going on with it in many situations.
It will be good to know what is going on in this situation as a learning exercise.
- BletchleyGeek
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Can you set the APer and AArm rings for those Axis units with LOS on the bridge? Being 20h, probably with better visibility that LOS area display might look a bit different.
Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.
Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.
RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Can you set the APer and AArm rings for those Axis units with LOS on the bridge? Being 20h, probably with better visibility that LOS area display might look a bit different.
Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.
It looks like an armor HQ so will certainly have enough range, and firepower to take out vehichles using the road directly south of the bridge, if it still has any of its tanks left.
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
BG - Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.
Ah. That might be the key - in terms of what Dave wrote - the firepower ratio threshold used to determine if a loc along the route is deemed to be hostile - is that what you mean? That you actually have to have units on the route (as opposed to within LOS, say) in order for the ratio to favour you?
Ah. That might be the key - in terms of what Dave wrote - the firepower ratio threshold used to determine if a loc along the route is deemed to be hostile - is that what you mean? That you actually have to have units on the route (as opposed to within LOS, say) in order for the ratio to favour you?
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM
Daz wrote - It looks like an armor HQ so will certainly have enough range, and firepower to take out vehichles using the road directly south of the bridge, if it still has any of its tanks left.
This does all make me wonder about LOS in urban areas. If you're talking about the units to the nw of the bridge, then here's their (present day) view, back towards the bridge. They wouldn't have been able to shell anything on that road, in fact. The road back to Elden - and I can confirm this from having been there recently too - is not visible from any area along the river bank. Not really because of the trees and any buildings which might or miht not have been there in 1944, but because of the basic elevation and curvature of the earth, I think.
It's Holland. It's flat. You don't get line of sight for very far. Even a few trees and dykes and ditches and such like would have cut it. the mere height of the sth bank of the Rhine cuts it.
This does all make me wonder about LOS in urban areas. If you're talking about the units to the nw of the bridge, then here's their (present day) view, back towards the bridge. They wouldn't have been able to shell anything on that road, in fact. The road back to Elden - and I can confirm this from having been there recently too - is not visible from any area along the river bank. Not really because of the trees and any buildings which might or miht not have been there in 1944, but because of the basic elevation and curvature of the earth, I think.
It's Holland. It's flat. You don't get line of sight for very far. Even a few trees and dykes and ditches and such like would have cut it. the mere height of the sth bank of the Rhine cuts it.
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