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SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 7:45:09 PM   
phoenix

 

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Supply issue again. Maybe the answer is obvious, but it's not to me. Apologies if I'm missing somehting. Can anyone (Panther staff included) tell me why the units in the pic would not be able to trace a supply route? The supplying base and HQ is just off pic, about 1km further back, at the end of the strong blue line (in Elden). There are no Axis units anywhere near it (I know, I surrendered to check) - and I mean nothing within at least 2kms anywhere along the big road between the base and the units the other side of the intact Arnhem highway bridge - except those Axis units at the other side of the front line of course. Can they be the cause? But if so, how would front line units ever get supplied? It's been like this ever since those units went over the bridge - ie; this isn't a problem with the 'historical' nature of the supply line box updating - there has NEVER been an Axis unit anywhere near this supply route, save those beyond the FLOT.




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< Message edited by phoenix -- 4/7/2013 7:48:06 PM >
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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 7:51:14 PM   
phoenix

 

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Here's the bigger pic (below). Why have those units over the rail bridge got supply, but not those over the highway bridge?




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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 7:54:11 PM   
phoenix

 

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And lastly, the surrender pic, so you can see where the Axis units are:




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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 8:04:56 PM   
Lieste

 

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Several points:

1) Supply status is 'semi-static' ~ it is only updated during a supply event ~ either one of the routine supply in the morning or evening, or an emergency supply run. It is then 'open or blocked' until the next attempt (the failure or success of which depends on the 'instantaneous' condition of the route, not the 'reported' status at the last run.
The Bor HQ is probably in the same supply state as the other elements in the bridgehead, just that it got a delivery at a different moment than the failed deliveries around it.

2) The presence of an AT unit on the Road @ B.2, the AT and Flak units to the WNW and the Infantry on the river bank to the ESE of the crossing are plenty to prevent movement of the supply 'runs' across the open bridge in good weather and daylight.
At night time, I'd expect the run to be successful.
A carpet of units can 'help' the movement of supply slightly, but the open section to the south of the river is interdicted by heavy weapons in large numbers...
You can see that the AT element in the River bend south of the river is also interdicted by enemy presence.

3) The RR crossing is on a concave bend, the enemy is prevented from 'flanking the bridge'. The Rd crossing is on a convex bend, and the enemy has troops 'behind it' on both flanks, plus a significantly higher 'presence'.

4) The higher presence at the Rd crossing will also place more strain on the supply situation, and increase the number (and thus likelihood of failure) of attempted supply runs. After 'too many' fail to complete I think the further attempt is 'blocked' until visibility worsens.

< Message edited by Lieste -- 4/7/2013 8:07:47 PM >

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 8:57:26 PM   
phoenix

 

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Thanks Lieste. That's all helpful, perhaps. It means, in effect, that I can't hold that position, right? Unless, as you say, the night supply is succesful. But the pic was taken at 4.48am, so the evening supply, I assume, failed. Which means, again, that I can't hold this position. What could I do? Pull Bns back to Elden (the rear), say, one by one, for R&R (in this case, rest and resupply)? Seems wrong. If they could get back to Elden for ammo (which I'm sure they could), why can't the jeeps get from Elden across the bridge?

Whilst we're on about it, I would like to know how Frost, in RL, could survive 3 days of fighting cut off (continuing to shoot and fight, I mean, still with ammo), but in the game the units would be out of ammo within a few hours of continuous fighting?

Maybe that isn't on the point. But it's interesting.

Any suggestions as to how to solve the above issue, if the problem is as Lieste says? I think I've established a generous bridgehead. Not generous enough? Can't expand it, for sure. Would have to pull back to the south bank, but would that help?

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 9:04:17 PM   
phoenix

 

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Lieste. This is what the los area tool says:




The Los line confirms that they can't see the bridge, basically. ?????

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< Message edited by phoenix -- 4/7/2013 9:05:52 PM >

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 9:28:20 PM   
Lieste

 

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Do it the other way around. From each 'area' where there are enemy (and bear in mind that the footprint extends beyond the counter for many formations), see what you can see of the highway...

Even with your image, you have two AT gun units able to project fire onto the bridge... and there might be much more that can project south of the approaches.

I'd expect to have fires on the route over some distance... not enough to destroy a line formation, but enough to prevent free movement of supplies.

You only have to cut the bark in one place and the tree dies.

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 9:47:52 PM   
dazkaz15


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One day we will have some on map indication of the route, like the trade routes in Civ 5 for example, and maybe even some way to adjust the route it takes....one day

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/7/2013 11:46:52 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

And lastly, the surrender pic, so you can see where the Axis units are:





It appears there as least one Axis unit between your SEP north and east of the rail bridge and the Supply base to Arnhem using the road route.

Some units at the rail bridge are supplied directly from the SEP, but it appears the anti-tank unit near the north side of the rail bridge cuts any push supply operations to the division base supplying the troops in Arnhem.

End the push to the base south of the river, and there can be no pull from north of the river over the road once the base's residual supplies are exhausted.

_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 12:16:30 AM   
Arjuna


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This is always a thorny issue. In practice a leg inf company would send back a party of men to pick up the ammo if it was too dangerous to bring forward a vehicle. We already model that by moving the drop off point some distance from the end of the route (which is the unit being supplied).

The actual presence of friendlies is only relevant if they are dug in or in some form of urban terrain where there is adequate cover for the man handling of supplies trough trenches and buildings. Otherwise no soldier is going to jump up and stop the bullets with their own body. The delivery vehicles or troops will have to run the gauntlet of enemy fire even as they pass other friendlies hugging the dirt nearby.

To complicate matters, ammo heavier than small arms needs to be delivered by some form of vehicle. You cannot expect troops to manhandle 105mm rounds over anything beyond a hundred metres without exhausting them. If you want to know what this feels like go the gym and try carrying around one of those heavy weights (a 105mm round weighs 30kg) for half an hour while you clamber over benches and any other obstacle that presents itself to simulate troops having to traverse the battlefield.

I will take another look at this but don't expect too much. I'm not about to make it unrealistic.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 2:01:50 AM   
Arjuna


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peter,

Do you have a save preferably taken before the Resupply event?

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 2:34:18 AM   
Arjuna


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I have been checking the code and can confirm that enemy FP influence is ignored in a location occupied by friendly troops along a supply route. So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory. I have just doubled the firepower ratio threshold used to determine if a loc along the route is deemed to be hostile. We will need to monitor this carefully less we get to the point where no supply routes are being cut.

_____________________________

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www.panthergames.com

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 8:21:18 AM   
phoenix

 

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Thanks Dave. I wasn't complaining, or asking for change - just wondering what was going on. Given this sentence in your responses - So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory. - I'm still wondering!! I'll look through the saves to see if I have one that far back (the re-supply event).

Jim. I can't understand what you've said, though it sounds like it might be relevant. Can you explain what you mean? The white AT unit is Polish (Allied). Is that the one you meant?

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 8:34:15 AM   
phoenix

 

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Dave. The pic above is early hours day 3. I have a save at D2 17.53 and D2 20.00. (Last re-supply would have been at 18.00 day 2, right?) Any use? Let me know and I can send. Pic from the 17.53 save below. Next post pic from 20.00 save. Supply cut across the bridge. Bor HQ still in supply (because not yet over the bridge). It does seem as if what Lieste says is happening has to be it - that the presence of those Axis units across the bridge cuts the supply, no?




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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 8:37:59 AM   
phoenix

 

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Pic from 20.00, after re-supply update would have occured (I assume?). Much the same. I've used the LOS tool on one of the Axis units, which clearly has clear view of supply route. But does this mean it cuts it? I'm confused, following what you said here, Dave - enemy FP influence is ignored in a location occupied by friendly troops along a supply route. So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory Because, if it's not enemy FP influence cutting things, then what is it? There's nothing else that can cut it, surely?




Be good to know exactly what's happening as it will have a profound impact on tactics in terms of where to site bases and how much care needs to be taken to keep supply routes clear.

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< Message edited by phoenix -- 4/8/2013 8:40:37 AM >

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 9:19:09 AM   
dazkaz15


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I'm finding this very interesting.
Where supply is abstracted in game, it's very hard to tell what is going on with it in many situations.
It will be good to know what is going on in this situation as a learning exercise.

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 9:19:36 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Can you set the APer and AArm rings for those Axis units with LOS on the bridge? Being 20h, probably with better visibility that LOS area display might look a bit different.

Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 9:38:58 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Can you set the APer and AArm rings for those Axis units with LOS on the bridge? Being 20h, probably with better visibility that LOS area display might look a bit different.

Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.


It looks like an armor HQ so will certainly have enough range, and firepower to take out vehichles using the road directly south of the bridge, if it still has any of its tanks left.

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 9:41:00 AM   
phoenix

 

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BG - Note that while you have one unit at one end of the bridge, there's almost a 1 km long stretch of road without friendlies and being in overwatch of Axis units.

Ah. That might be the key - in terms of what Dave wrote - the firepower ratio threshold used to determine if a loc along the route is deemed to be hostile - is that what you mean? That you actually have to have units on the route (as opposed to within LOS, say) in order for the ratio to favour you?

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 9:51:00 AM   
phoenix

 

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Daz wrote - It looks like an armor HQ so will certainly have enough range, and firepower to take out vehichles using the road directly south of the bridge, if it still has any of its tanks left.

This does all make me wonder about LOS in urban areas. If you're talking about the units to the nw of the bridge, then here's their (present day) view, back towards the bridge. They wouldn't have been able to shell anything on that road, in fact. The road back to Elden - and I can confirm this from having been there recently too - is not visible from any area along the river bank. Not really because of the trees and any buildings which might or miht not have been there in 1944, but because of the basic elevation and curvature of the earth, I think.






It's Holland. It's flat. You don't get line of sight for very far. Even a few trees and dykes and ditches and such like would have cut it. the mere height of the sth bank of the Rhine cuts it.

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< Message edited by phoenix -- 4/8/2013 9:53:38 AM >

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 10:02:34 AM   
dazkaz15


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The footprint of the HQ would extend to the far side of the built up area near the river bank would it not?

It would be a logical move to place some of its tanks overlooking the river/road in the corner of its footprint on that side.

We have to allow for abstraction in this game of course. You can't really allow for detail of this sort in a game at this scale.

Maybe move your anti tank, and any other spare units you have with the range, into position in this image during the night?

I think this might cover the road, to make it inside freindly lines if I understand what Dave was saying, in that regard.
Or did he mean you have to have friendly units actually lined up on the road itself?





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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 10:10:21 AM   
phoenix

 

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We have to allow for abstraction, yes. But that the footprint crosses the river surely cannot mean that you permit the AI to compute line of sight as if there were armour units across a major obstacle like a river?

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 10:13:57 AM   
dazkaz15


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

We have to allow for abstraction, yes. But that the footprint crosses the river surely cannot mean that you permit the AI to compute line of sight as if there were armour units across a major obstacle like a river?

No not across the river, but lined up on the bank, projecting their firepower accross the river.

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 10:27:33 AM   
phoenix

 

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Yes. Maybe. But like I said - the urban LOS is interesting. I feel it should be much less, at least for some purposes (firing, perhaps, as opposed to mere intel). Maybe not. Maybe I'd be happy with it, however it was, if those troops across the brdige had supply. I think they should have had supply from night time supply runs when they control that much territory around the bridge. I cannot see that in RL supply wouldn't have got through. There has been no 'speculative' arty that I saw, by the way, dropping onto the route itself (including the bridge), so it hasn't been that. It feels wrong to me that they don't have supply, and I need to know how I can establish a bridgehead like that and keep supply going. I need to know, generally, what cuts the route and what doesn't. Feel I can't really play the game properly at the moment because I'm not sure what I need to do to keep supply going. i checked all their logs, by the way, and no supply got through since the day before (since they crossed the river, more or less). They're all out of ammo and will have to be pulled back. Does that not seem absurd, given the position? But maybe it isn't. You can see from the photo that the Axis would have been able to fire at anything on the bridge (even by night, I would think) quite easily. They haven't in fact done that (according to the graphic cues), and certainly haven't done that whilst there have been no units on the bridge (and just the invisible base supply jeeps trying to go across). I can live with whatever the position is, but would need to know. I mean the bridge isn't a particularly important feature here for the general point - so doesn't this mean that it must be incredibly difficult to re-supply front line units in any circumstances, assuming that what is happening here is that enemy units past the FLOT are in fact interdicting the supply up to the FLOT by their mere presence and proximity? Is that what's happening here, or is it that the route further back is being cut because the AI determines, from the absence of actual friendly units near the actual route that the ratio of FP means the route is not in my control? Because if that's the case it would have far reaching consequences too, for how I play, certainly. I would need to consider posting units along the route quite often, even when there didn't appear to be a need to do so.

More confused than ever about supply.....

< Message edited by phoenix -- 4/8/2013 10:37:37 AM >

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 10:43:00 AM   
dazkaz15


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Yes your right about the night time resupply. That one should have got through I think.
Maybe move a unit onto the bridge to see if it takes any fire? Bare in mind it will need to be motorised, and moving to have the same visibility as the supply convoy.

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 4/8/2013 10:46:36 AM >

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 10:56:51 AM   
dazkaz15


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I'll have a play with it myself after work, and see what I come up with.
You have got me intrigued

Here is a 1940's map of the area I found.

Notice the contour lines in the red circle indicating enemy areas, and that they do infact have an overlook position due to the hill there. At least on this map.
I don't have time to check it in game yet.




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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 11:57:29 AM   
dazkaz15


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Google earth view of the bridge from that hill.




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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 12:52:43 PM   
phoenix

 

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You've got your google earth options set to more than 1, Daz. That's not what Arnhem looks like. See below for what it looks like with no exaggeration:




There's an overwatch from up there, sure, but I doubt it's too good at night. But anyway, I think that isn't the point. What I need to know is - WHAT is cutting my supply? Is it the 'mere' proximity of Axis troops beyond my own FLOT? In which case, as I said, I can't see how front line troops are ever going to be supplied in the game whilst they're in a fight. (It may be they don't ever get resupply in a fight, and that this is intentional, but I can't imagine so). Or is it because some unit, actually very far away from some part of my supply route, has a LOS to it and the AI computes that it can therefore 'cut' the route (how?) because I don't have enough units on the actual route for the AI to recognise it as mine (and if it were 'mine' it would be exempted from such a possibility)?

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 2:05:39 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Thanks Dave. I wasn't complaining, or asking for change - just wondering what was going on. Given this sentence in your responses - So any cutting of the route cannot occur where the route goes through friendly occupied territory. - I'm still wondering!! I'll look through the saves to see if I have one that far back (the re-supply event).

Jim. I can't understand what you've said, though it sounds like it might be relevant. Can you explain what you mean? The white AT unit is Polish (Allied). Is that the one you meant?


I wondered how that "lone German" AT Unit remained in the midst of the Allied troops ;-). Didn't realize it was Polish.



_____________________________

Take care,

jim

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RE: SUPPLY PROBLEM - 4/8/2013 6:04:11 PM   
phoenix

 

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Dave. I've sent a save from d2 17.53 and the relevant .cos file. Many thanks.

Peter

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