Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
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- battlevonwar
- Posts: 1230
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:17 am
Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
Okay, I'm playing my 4th game since 1.3 and these are my results in total:
First 3 games 1942 my opponent quit and rightfully even after self editing frozen Russian units and combat ability to 1.4 standards.
In the current 1.4 Beta, latest patch the result after 8 or so game turns is that the Germans are close to approaching 2 out of 3 objectives. Nothing really has changed for me in the 1941-1942 Scenarios as for game balance.
People here have constantly haggled me about Game Balance but my opponents were both two of the best of the best you have to offer here. I am guessing that no Allied player can beat me with the current patch in any scenario if I play Axis. The only time any Allied player beat me was through a DOW Exploit in 1940 during my invasion of France.
The USSR will need some sort of Fighting Capability in 1941, no matter what scenario in 1939-42. My suggestion again, is something on the order of a Siberian Reinforcement with HUGE bonuses to technology and fighting capability.
HISTORY has no place in balance, and in 4 patches no one has addressed this fatal flaw to game play and balance. The Axis were not destroyed in the counter offensive of 1941 but they were nearly destroyed in places in 1942. Though the Allies has massive capabilities at this point. I would ignore all other aspects broken in the game and address this as soon as possible...
Please Players post below your possible suggestions:
1. 5-10 Russian Tank Korps around a Moscow Approach defense, with 5-10 Russian Army Korps. Large bonuses to these units so they can fight. Along with 5-10 Tac Bombers, 5-10 Fighters...20 Divisions...
2. Smaller force for Leningrad...
3. Same force for Stalingrad... If anything perhaps after a certain hex is pushed these units freeze or are dispersed and taken off the map...
That is what it would take to even give the Allies a chance so far as I can see. Unless my current opponent shocks me, I doubt that as he already expresses much the same sentiment as me.
First 3 games 1942 my opponent quit and rightfully even after self editing frozen Russian units and combat ability to 1.4 standards.
In the current 1.4 Beta, latest patch the result after 8 or so game turns is that the Germans are close to approaching 2 out of 3 objectives. Nothing really has changed for me in the 1941-1942 Scenarios as for game balance.
People here have constantly haggled me about Game Balance but my opponents were both two of the best of the best you have to offer here. I am guessing that no Allied player can beat me with the current patch in any scenario if I play Axis. The only time any Allied player beat me was through a DOW Exploit in 1940 during my invasion of France.
The USSR will need some sort of Fighting Capability in 1941, no matter what scenario in 1939-42. My suggestion again, is something on the order of a Siberian Reinforcement with HUGE bonuses to technology and fighting capability.
HISTORY has no place in balance, and in 4 patches no one has addressed this fatal flaw to game play and balance. The Axis were not destroyed in the counter offensive of 1941 but they were nearly destroyed in places in 1942. Though the Allies has massive capabilities at this point. I would ignore all other aspects broken in the game and address this as soon as possible...
Please Players post below your possible suggestions:
1. 5-10 Russian Tank Korps around a Moscow Approach defense, with 5-10 Russian Army Korps. Large bonuses to these units so they can fight. Along with 5-10 Tac Bombers, 5-10 Fighters...20 Divisions...
2. Smaller force for Leningrad...
3. Same force for Stalingrad... If anything perhaps after a certain hex is pushed these units freeze or are dispersed and taken off the map...
That is what it would take to even give the Allies a chance so far as I can see. Unless my current opponent shocks me, I doubt that as he already expresses much the same sentiment as me.
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
I think it goes beyond the Russo-German campaign as in multiple attempts, I have not been able to force the historical win in Winter War as the the Soviet player.
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
1. Could you post some form of AAR? I'm ready to drop the game against the AI for the opposite reason. As soon as the barbarossa benefits finish my Axis advance quickly grinds to a halt.
2. Agree fully that you either get a fully historically accurate simulation or a game. If the former why bother playing? So playability should trump accuracy every time.
2. I agree again that at 'normal' levels there should be reasonable game balance but what is reasonable will vary between individuals so whatever is done should be done through the options/preferences to avoid each patch just moving the pendulum around and someone always being shorted.
2. Agree fully that you either get a fully historically accurate simulation or a game. If the former why bother playing? So playability should trump accuracy every time.
2. I agree again that at 'normal' levels there should be reasonable game balance but what is reasonable will vary between individuals so whatever is done should be done through the options/preferences to avoid each patch just moving the pendulum around and someone always being shorted.
Plan? What plan? Attack!!
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
No, I want historical. There are plenty of factors in this game that can be tweaked to get more historical-like results. Everything from social unrest to war readiness level to upkeep costs, etc. The worst possible thing is to just make up unhistorical reinforcements
Don't be so sure about our current game with 1.4. I'm not at all certain you'll be able to take Leningrad and Moscow in '40.
Don't be so sure about our current game with 1.4. I'm not at all certain you'll be able to take Leningrad and Moscow in '40.
- battlevonwar
- Posts: 1230
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:17 am
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
rmonical: Specifically this is in regards to Operation Barbarossa. The effects of the 1941-42 Winter upon German troops and massive counterattacks of that time period... Realistically hard to replicate... I'll elaborate further, further down.
Buchand:
1. How long have you played and on what settings are you using?
2. I agree 110% with you.
3. I understand how you feel about the experience of one player over another. Also the strategies they choose. Although I think if you play a lot of games, you will come to the same road block. Settings may not be enough, I am not 110% sure about this. For Multiplayer(As AI practically has no chance without manipulating difficulty levels) and that really goes down to cheating... i.e. when you're playing Civilization and you increase difficulty the only thing you get is a opponent with more and not more brains.
gwgardner:
We shall see how this plays out. Those Russian Units of yours will have to have a huge boost in order to stem the tide. What would be historically accurate is slower rail repair, supply issues and perhaps a massive swap of combat ability as Winter sets in grinding the Germans to a halt. Although none talk about implementing this into the game and all the half measures taken thus far don't address the problem.
To sum up:
In the end any halfway decent Axis Player will always win. As the USSR will never win as things are, if I am right and so far in about 10-12 games I have never been wrong. The only time my Axis were defeated took out nearly all of the effects of the Russian Crippling Army Events... for 1941 and I'll be honest I played quite poorly. I attacked way too much, the opponent got very lucky in places, and even still I did very well regardless(longest game I've ever heard about played in Multi player)
Buchand:
1. How long have you played and on what settings are you using?
2. I agree 110% with you.
3. I understand how you feel about the experience of one player over another. Also the strategies they choose. Although I think if you play a lot of games, you will come to the same road block. Settings may not be enough, I am not 110% sure about this. For Multiplayer(As AI practically has no chance without manipulating difficulty levels) and that really goes down to cheating... i.e. when you're playing Civilization and you increase difficulty the only thing you get is a opponent with more and not more brains.
gwgardner:
We shall see how this plays out. Those Russian Units of yours will have to have a huge boost in order to stem the tide. What would be historically accurate is slower rail repair, supply issues and perhaps a massive swap of combat ability as Winter sets in grinding the Germans to a halt. Although none talk about implementing this into the game and all the half measures taken thus far don't address the problem.
To sum up:
In the end any halfway decent Axis Player will always win. As the USSR will never win as things are, if I am right and so far in about 10-12 games I have never been wrong. The only time my Axis were defeated took out nearly all of the effects of the Russian Crippling Army Events... for 1941 and I'll be honest I played quite poorly. I attacked way too much, the opponent got very lucky in places, and even still I did very well regardless(longest game I've ever heard about played in Multi player)
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
Hold on now.
1) rail repair rate is easily modded;
2) General Winter is implemented;
3) supply effects during bad weather is implemented, and is modifiable.
So what is needed is someone to tackle the mod for all the elements you've outlined. this 1.4 is a first step. If I can hold out till bad weather hits, I have hope for surviviing the winter.
Oh, and lets not forget, this time with 1.4 is the first time we'll really get to test the new manpower/upkeep system.
1) rail repair rate is easily modded;
2) General Winter is implemented;
3) supply effects during bad weather is implemented, and is modifiable.
So what is needed is someone to tackle the mod for all the elements you've outlined. this 1.4 is a first step. If I can hold out till bad weather hits, I have hope for surviviing the winter.
Oh, and lets not forget, this time with 1.4 is the first time we'll really get to test the new manpower/upkeep system.
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
Hold on now.
1) rail repair rate is easily modded;
2) General Winter is implemented;
3) supply effects during bad weather is implemented, and is modifiable.
So what is needed is someone to tackle the mod for all the elements you've outlined. this 1.4 is a first step. If I can hold out till bad weather hits, I have hope for surviviing the winter.
Oh, and lets not forget, this time with 1.4 is the first time we'll really get to test the new manpower/upkeep system.
I am only able to play against the AI due to time constraints and experience level. I am playing turn 29 (nov 40) of Fall Gelb as the Allies (using custom settings with Britian/France/USA easy & all others normal)(USSR AI controlled), and the Axis AI has defeated France and not yet attacked anywhere else for several turns (other than hitting British fighters and bombing some cities. So far the game has been fun, but I doubt my skill level would stand up to a competent human opponent. When you play against each other, do you have all settings on normal? Would you consider it cheating to use the different levels to play balance the game? Just curious, and want to remain respectful of opinions of more experienced gamers.
JRR
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
We're playing on normal right now, but in the AAR section you'll see some games I played with Chocolino with major countries on hard level.
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
I followed the AAR's you mentioned (with the major powers on hard). Ouch! Looked like you had fun though. Thanks for going to the trouble of putting it out there. I can see why the USSR needs some first winter help. If you can't put a serious hurting on the Axis, then you are pretty much toast in Russia, and the Allies lose the war. Since I am playing against the AI in the Fall Gelb scenario (my first 1.04), I will find it interesting to see how the first winter goes. If the AI is decent, I will expect the Russians to be in trouble, as I have them both set on normal.
JRR
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
1.04 changes things a lot on the Eastern Front in '41. In my current game, I'm doing better than I did against Chocolino, I think.
- battlevonwar
- Posts: 1230
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:17 am
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
gwgardner:
I am definitely seeing choke points I never had when I played The USSR. There are 20 objective cities at least with resources I'll need to really push in on The Big Three in The USSR: Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad. I think it's Sept 1st... I have never seen Op Barbarossa take this long.
Yes modifying the speed of which Axis can push would be an answer if the right recipe can be found. I also agree this is our first beta on making things more difficult. I would love to see the Soviets able to defend themselves!
I am definitely seeing choke points I never had when I played The USSR. There are 20 objective cities at least with resources I'll need to really push in on The Big Three in The USSR: Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad. I think it's Sept 1st... I have never seen Op Barbarossa take this long.
Yes modifying the speed of which Axis can push would be an answer if the right recipe can be found. I also agree this is our first beta on making things more difficult. I would love to see the Soviets able to defend themselves!
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
I know my experience is limited, as I can only play against the AI, but I have had a saved game running through all versions, from 1.0 to the new 1.04 beta (put it aside for a while during the 1.02/1.03 problems, but restarted). I have progressively adjusted rail repair times, entrenching, air and sea supply and other items to get a more realistic feel.
Now coming out of the first winter on the Eastern Front, as Axis against the AI, and the Soviets are no push-over, the Soviet air force is reappearing at the front and several new large Soviet Tank Corps have arrived in the last few turns. The AI has only made limited attacks during the winter turns, but has taken advantage of any weak points and caused significant damage. Having to move Axis units back to German territory to get full reinforcement slows things down.
Rail repair is critical, it repairs too quickly and a more realistic delay in opening rail supply keeps a more historical balance.
Too early to really tell how version 1.04 beta will work out, but I feel I have a real fight developing.[:)]
Now coming out of the first winter on the Eastern Front, as Axis against the AI, and the Soviets are no push-over, the Soviet air force is reappearing at the front and several new large Soviet Tank Corps have arrived in the last few turns. The AI has only made limited attacks during the winter turns, but has taken advantage of any weak points and caused significant damage. Having to move Axis units back to German territory to get full reinforcement slows things down.
Rail repair is critical, it repairs too quickly and a more realistic delay in opening rail supply keeps a more historical balance.
Too early to really tell how version 1.04 beta will work out, but I feel I have a real fight developing.[:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
Rail repair is critical, it repairs too quickly and a more realistic delay in opening rail supply keeps a more historical balance.
Can you tell me how to mod the rail repair for Axis AI? What would give a more historical feel?
JRR
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
ORIGINAL: baloo7777Can you tell me how to mod the rail repair for Axis AI? What would give a more historical feel?Rail repair is critical, it repairs too quickly and a more realistic delay in opening rail supply keeps a more historical balance.
In the TOF folder find data/scenarios/scenario name/const, which will open in notepad, look for lines :
[Railroads]
MaxRepairTimeAfterOwnerChange = 3
RepairChanceForWeather = 90;35;50
I think that this means that the chance for a broken rail to repair is 90% in good weather, 35% in mud and 50% in snow, but that anyway it will always repair after 3 turns.
I have tried increasing the max repair time to 5 turns and reduced the % chance to repair to 60:25:35 and now thinking of going lower, 30:15:10.
I am using this to slow down the Axis advance played by me, against the AI, but the AI gets help and I am not sure if any changes will apply to the AI, also there are national const files which allow you to change things for specific nations, but I don't know whether, or not, rail repair is a global feature that cannot be varied for different nations.
Even on a lower percentage there is still a chance that some rail may still repair quickly, depends on how the % odds fall for each hex.
You may have to change permissions for the file to be able to save changes - right click to get file Properties/Security/allow full control, to be able to modify the file (backup original files in case you want to go back).
These files are specific to each scenario, so any changes in one scenario const file will not be active in any other scenarios you might play.
When the game is saved, copies of national const files go into the saved game file, so unless its a new game, any changes to national const files will have to be made to the saved files. I think the main const file, which does not appear in the saved game files, always remains as it was in the main game folder.
There are a lot of features in the const file which can be adjusted, another item I find useful is unit splitting, in a game with no stacking, splitting units is a realistic way to establish a defence and get more flexibility.
[UnitSplitting]
FreezeTimeModifierAfterUnitSplit_Land = 0.67
CostModifierOfUnitSplit_Land = 0.67
Changing these to .25, or lower, reduces the time delay and PP cost of splitting. The cost was set high to stop players from using the split as a cheaper way of getting more Corps, which could then be built to full strength, but you can name the split units as XXX/1 and XXX/2 so you could later merge them back into the original unit and as a reminder not to reinforce them above 50%. Choosing appropriate names will allow you to find split units in the unit management box (click at the top of each column and the unit list should fall into number order). The AI will not be affected, as I don't think it uses splitting.
[RailroadSupply]
SupplyPartWithNoRailroadLandConnectionWithMSS = 0.66
Lowering this may help, as the Soviets in defence will have a full rail net and changing this should reduce supply for the advancing side with broken rail behind them.
To help the Soviets, experimenting with entrenching settings to allow units to dig for more turns (from 5 to 10) and hopefully get a bigger entrenching bonus if they haven't moved. It's difficult to see which defence bonuses are being applied during combats, but the AI Soviets can be difficult to shift, without multiple attacks. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
It is actually two different games:
Vrs AI you face MASSIVE USSR forces impossible to build as a player (about 10 times as strong as a human gets) PvP is unbalanced worse in the opposite direction USSR is weak as a kitten. Neither is 'historical' in any real sense.
That said GWGardner is correct. This is absolutely addressable with some mods but 'as is' it is pretty rough. Rough as unpolished not as in difficult usually difficult is good. Currently defending USSR vrs a competent Human is beyond difficult. IMO the main problem is the game balance is 'tuned' to GE vrs AI outside that box it tends to break down a bit.
Vrs AI you face MASSIVE USSR forces impossible to build as a player (about 10 times as strong as a human gets) PvP is unbalanced worse in the opposite direction USSR is weak as a kitten. Neither is 'historical' in any real sense.
That said GWGardner is correct. This is absolutely addressable with some mods but 'as is' it is pretty rough. Rough as unpolished not as in difficult usually difficult is good. Currently defending USSR vrs a competent Human is beyond difficult. IMO the main problem is the game balance is 'tuned' to GE vrs AI outside that box it tends to break down a bit.
"Don’t you think that if I were wrong, I’d know it?"
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL
It is actually two different games:
Vrs AI you face MASSIVE USSR forces impossible to build as a player (about 10 times as strong as a human gets) PvP is unbalanced worse in the opposite direction USSR is weak as a kitten. Neither is 'historical' in any real sense.
OOPS! I made the changes Rasputitsa had offered as a suggestion in his reply (I saved the original Consts 1940 Fall Gelb scenario), as I was thinking I would like a better balanced and somewhat more historical scenario. If the USSR AI is now even stronger, I will likely find out soon (finished with Jan 1 1941 turn). I am playing as the Allies vs the Axis AI. If I play a PvP game, I hope my opponent and I can agree on some play balance/realism mods in advance. I'll play this vs the AI for awhile to see what happens.
JRR
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
I did say that these adjustments were in use as Human Axis against Soviet AI and they are mainly to provide a more realistically challenging game for the human. I am not sure of the details, but the AI gets to break some of the rules, to give it a better chance, so changing some of the parameters may not affect the way the AI works.
No AI can give a challenging game to a human player, unless it gets some help, and anyway it is unlikely to be any good at taking the initiative. I usually play Axis for the early war scenarios and Allies for the late war years, this puts the AI closer to its defensive comfort zone and I use various data adjustments and personal house rules to get a more historically realistic game.
The basic game design has to allow for the possibility of the AI playing either side, in all scenarios, and PBEM with human/human play as well. It's not surprising that this leads to compromises in design decisions, which means the game may not be giving the best results in all cases.
However the game is easily modded and can be adjusted, with in-game settings, or adjustments to the game files, as you play, it's good that the player has the opportunity to get into the guts of the game if they wish. [:)]
No AI can give a challenging game to a human player, unless it gets some help, and anyway it is unlikely to be any good at taking the initiative. I usually play Axis for the early war scenarios and Allies for the late war years, this puts the AI closer to its defensive comfort zone and I use various data adjustments and personal house rules to get a more historically realistic game.
The basic game design has to allow for the possibility of the AI playing either side, in all scenarios, and PBEM with human/human play as well. It's not surprising that this leads to compromises in design decisions, which means the game may not be giving the best results in all cases.
However the game is easily modded and can be adjusted, with in-game settings, or adjustments to the game files, as you play, it's good that the player has the opportunity to get into the guts of the game if they wish. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
You are very correct. You did say vs human opponent. I am trying the scenario I have going now as an experiment by changing (custom settings) to play both sides and try different settings. I am still very happy with 1.04 as no crashes to date. I also appreciate learning how to mod a scenario. Now if only I could mod the routing of convoys. They keep running through the same deadly sea zones to great PP loss(40-50%).
JRR
- Rasputitsa
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RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
ORIGINAL: baloo7777
You are very correct. You did say vs human opponent. I am trying the scenario I have going now as an experiment by changing (custom settings) to play both sides and try different settings. I am still very happy with 1.04 as no crashes to date. I also appreciate learning how to mod a scenario. Now if only I could mod the routing of convoys. They keep running through the same deadly sea zones to great PP loss(40-50%).
The convoy issue has been an ongoing problem, but I think this is an item that will have to be fixed by the devs, the modding options are limited, although it has been discussed, see link.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3266811
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon
“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
RE: Eastern Front Axis Allied Balance
Have you tried escorting convoys? that is available in 1.04. have destroyers, etc. stationed along the routes.
I know that's impossible in the Med, as long as it is Italian controlled, and for the seazone next to France.
Hunt and kill those subs, make it a major effort.
I know that's impossible in the Med, as long as it is Italian controlled, and for the seazone next to France.
Hunt and kill those subs, make it a major effort.