Reserve Activations, over the top?

[Michael T]

I want to raise the subject of reserve activation and see what others think. I have used a house rule previously to limit reserve use and perhaps a tone down in the game is needed.

When your opponent knows how to use reserves in defence it makes attacking quite tough and I feel that it is making defence to powerful. In some of my recent games (v Pelton and Bobo) I find I am spending most of my time trying to outwit the AI Reserve commitment system.

It just seems wrong that a player can commit virtually his entire Army that is at the front to reserve mode.

Anyway I will probably insist on some kind of reserve limits in future games.

Curious to see what others think.

[Flaviusx]

This game is very heavily biased towards the offense and reserves are one of the few ways of offsetting that bias.

So, no.

And, MT...seriously? You're the guy who is getting lopsided wins in every Axis game. And you were going to beat Pelton, too, as the Soviets, despite his attempts at optimizing a defense for the Germans. I mean, c'mon man.

[KamilS]

Reserves are poor way of dealing with 1 week turn concept and they can be pretty annoying, but they have big positive aspect - create impression, that game has something to offer beyond year '42 and that at least for me is really important.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

I agree. Its not a very well managed system. Seeing that the defender can almost double his strength at a random role it makes attacking very problematic. Units can leave their fortifications, attack, and be back to their pre-assigned spots in time for dinner. Meanwhile the attcker just blew his whole load for the week. I like the idea just not the implementation.

[Michael T]

I would say that in future without some form of Reserve limit HR I won't play as German. They just work too well. So maybe a lot of Soviet games for me coming up.

FWIW in my favourite East Front Board game (GMT's Barbarossa Series) the Soviet Reserve Activation in 1941 is limited to 1 or 2 units Per Army HQ.

I would think that is a better approach.

I am hearing more and more Axis players claiming that their 1941 summer offensive is getting closed down once the momentum of the initial drive slows up. It can't get going again due to mass reserve commitments. I can see how this is a real problem in evenly matched games.

It hasn't been a game breaker for me yet but I can see how it could be. It seems more of a problem for Axis players in 41/42.

[Manstein63]

I think that divisional reserves & Russian Tank & Rifle Korp should only be allowed at the Front/Armee level. Local reserves (brigades for the Russian & Regiments & brigades for the German) could be assigned at the Korp/Army level the amount of units that could be put into reserve could be based upon the admin rating of the HQ leader
Manstein63

[Flaviusx]

I do not see how the Axis can survive in the late war with this limit. Too often people just view the game through the perspective of 1941. Once on the defense, the Germans will just get steamrolled if they cannot make full use of reserves as presently possible and given the nearly non existent logistical constraints.

[rmonical]

It seems to me that the reserve issue is symptomatic of a larger 1941 issue - the Soviets are too operationally effective vis-a-vis their historical capabilities. It may be that all of the 1941 pre-blizzard issues would be addressed by lowering leader effectiveness. Taking 2 from all of the Soviet leadership ratings - adding 1 in May 1942 and another in May 1943 would have an interesting impact on the game.

I now have a couple of short games as Soviets completed. I was able to organize 8 and 9 division counterattacks in July and August that, IMHO, are not historically plausible.

One tweak to reserve activation that makes sense to me is it should be harder to activate against a hasty attack.

[KamilS]

rmonical

One tweak to reserve activation that makes sense to me is it should be harder to activate against a hasty attack.

I totally agree.

[Flaviusx]

The Soviets were launching such large attacks in the AGC area from mid July onwards historically, actually. That's why the Germans eventually evacuated the Yelnya salient.

[Michael T]

Yes I think it may only be the Soviet activation in 41/42 that needs adjustment. More so in 41. I like playing both sides so I seek a solution that is fair. ATM it seems to be working just to well for the Soviets in 41 at least.

[Michael T]

I would like to keep the topic on Reserve Activations if possible. Lets not get side tracked [;)]

[timmyab]

I've not had too many problems with reserves, but then again I usually have a bit to spare when I attack.I try to get at least 2 to 1 starting odds which is usually plenty if no reserves are thrown in and if they are you've still got a chance.Then again maybe I haven't met anyone who's mastered the art.
If you're looking for a solution, this is yet another thing that could be solved by reducing the effectiveness of the Soviet leadership.If Soviet leaders couldn't be swapped out easily then reserves are unlikely to activate due to their poor initiative ratings.

[rmonical]

Reserve activation on the defense is along the lines of a counterattack. What examples do we have of successful Soviet counterattacks in 1941? From Glantz, I am most familiar with the early Smolensk battles and nothing comes to mind.

[Michael T]

I have encountered some master Reserve exponents. And I have figured it out myself with some testing. Its not difficult to set up. Once your lines stabilise and you have a good command structure in the threatened parts of the front you just put everything in reserve mode. Toggle off the units you want in refit or are too low in morale and sit back and watch them fly in and win battles for you. I see single XX get 2 and 3 extra reserve XX quite commonly. The only way to beat it is simply go elsewhere once its set up, unless you can muster enough overwhelming odds to prevent the process in the first place. 10 to 1 I think.

IMO its way too effective for the Soviets in 1941 to be sure. If I were a novice Soviet player it would be the one thing I would learn to master ASAP.

[Iota]

Did u try to use offensive reserve activation?
Especially in 42 to break the sov lines, it works quiet well (vs AI) to counter the defense reserve activations.

[SigUp]

With the current combat system I don't think you can restrict defensive reserve use, at least for the German side. Otherwise there is no way the Germans survive an attack with multiple corps and artillery divisions without suffering 10-20% losses every attack which would burn out the German divisions in record time.

[janh]

I think Flavius is right, for the defending player the reserve mode is quite important. The German player who aims at playing the full game until 45 needs it for sure, else the bias to offense of this game, or the lack of any alternative mechanism helping the non-phasing defending player against the initiative advantage of I-Go-U-Go would see the games end a lot earlier than spring 45. It also creates the impression of simultaneity. In an offensive role I hardly use reserves except for breaking key locations (LG's back door...). I don't want to give up the advantage of the phasing player to be able to select and coordinate in detail while the enemy is unable to do so.

I have not had so much luck as Soviet player in 41 with reserve activations so far, although I use them whenever possible for all 2nd line troops. 1st line makes no sense.
Not sure, Michael, whether really mean that reserve activation stops the German from a 41 all out victory (so means of making this a 50:50 case ought to be there, right...?), or whether you are talking about such games where the Axis player is already "behind the curve" when his offensive slows and finally stalls. The 41 period has this kind of narrow curve, below which Axis gets stuck and the following years are likely much worse than average, or above which the Red Army likely to do well below average. 1941 shapes the following years, but the "average part" of the curve is unfortunately very narrow.

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran
... Units can leave their fortifications, attack, and be back to their pre-assigned spots in time for dinner. Meanwhile the attcker just blew his whole load for the week. I like the idea just not the implementation.

Totally agree. The units should be placed in the defended hex, or adjacent after the combat. If this relocation would happen it could screw your defensive setup and create some chaos, so people would use reserves more wisely. Like not using 1st line troops, or road-blocks positioned at key defensive terrain in the rear for reserve roles.

The understanding of what time means in I-Go-U-Go like you said it puzzling at best. Sure, you can have a set of stack expand all MPs to create a gap, fighting hard and having several helds. And then a Mot Div rushes through with 50 MP deep into the enemy rear in that same turn as if there was no enemy in the gap at the start of the turn? I think is were WitE in contrast to AE is much more of "just a game". It may sound stupid, but with that I/U abstraction, you probably should forget the concept of "time".
There was another Matrix I/U game, Forge of Freedom, where they attempted to bring back time and simultaneity by (a) having much short time intervals (aka 1 day turns sort of) and (b) by forcing the player to move units in sequence, each unit doing only one step at a time and looping over all until MPs were up. Wasn't such a great concept either since you couldn't chose which units to move first, but better as long as the number of units stayed low (maybe <100). So naught for WitE scales.

[Mehring]

All the historically good Russian leaders should begin the game as a potential rather than the realised capability at present. Most of them simply didn't have the practical experience to command as well as they do in game in 1941. I like the idea of reduced reserve activation against a first hasty attack, too, but more attacks, including subsequent attacks on adjacent hexes should mean greater activation chance, otherwise, particularly in 1941, the German will just sleaze multiple multi-unit hasties to break down defences without reserve interference.

Reserves pay 2 x movement to combat hex, presumably to represent a return ticket. If they can't make it home for tea, they won't get involved. Reserve commitment is a double edged sword anyways, the attacker having the chance to deal with 1st and second line defence in one roll if he gets lucky or attacks in anticipation of reserve commitment. Works ok in my view.

Other than that, it's apparent this game is very offensive biased and anything that can throw an attack and make the defence unpredictable has to be good.

[Mehring]

Another tactic that works really well against reserves is to recce behind the lines and bomb any likely suspects. Don't know how or why it works, but those reserves won't be bothering you much anymore