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Morale Recovery for rebuilt units

 
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Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 3/28/2013 8:20:44 PM   
rmonical

 

Posts: 1386
Joined: 4/1/2011
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This is the 1.07.03 beta release.
It is T31.

Rebuilt infantry division appeared in Magdeburg on T28 with morale 50. It is now T31 and the morale is 51. TOE is 74. The unit is, of course, still frozen and cannot be attached to a corps HQ.

I cannot find any rule addressing this situation.

For rebuilt units, at what time does the morale increase rule 9.1.1 kick in?

Do leader checks impact the morale increases discussed in 9.1.1? Do leader checks play impact the ground element increases discussed in 9.1.3?

TIA
Post #: 1
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 3/28/2013 9:36:15 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 20488
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Failed leader checks will cause a loss of morale, so that may be why the units aren't going up (they gain and lose in the same turn). It may help to have OKH close to the units (can't recall), but other than that you'll have to wait until they unfreeze for you to be able to get their morale to go up faster. It's still fairly quick rebuilding of destroyed units.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 2
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/6/2013 9:03:22 PM   
rmonical

 

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So if a unit is attached directly to high command, then the base for the check is always 10 - correct?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 3
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/8/2013 2:08:16 AM   
rmonical

 

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OK, the rebuilt units are unfrozen, sitting in Dresden in the European weather zone, adjacent to a corps HQ with a moral of 7 and the morale has not budged in two weeks even though the units are as much as 28 points below national morale for motorized units. Last turn I even did an HQBU to get the units into very good supply state to try to get morale moving.

Is this WAD? Is it going to take 6 months to a year of these units sitting in Dresden before they get back to national morale level? Will they ever?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 4
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/8/2013 2:23:46 AM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

OK, the rebuilt units are unfrozen, sitting in Dresden in the European weather zone, adjacent to a corps HQ with a moral of 7 and the morale has not budged in two weeks even though the units are as much as 28 points below national morale for motorized units. Last turn I even did an HQBU to get the units into very good supply state to try to get morale moving.

Is this WAD? Is it going to take 6 months to a year of these units sitting in Dresden before they get back to national morale level? Will they ever?





heheheh good luck friend I reported this long long time ago and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

The funny thing is SHC units don't have the same issue they magicly go up bang bang bang every turn.

I think this is when I lost it and accused 2by3 of bing Red F** ***s because GHC morale seems to never go up and SHC goes up sitting in the back.

Word keep your cool, because your 100% right.

I got banded for a few weeks and then got feed up with it all and stopped playing for 6 weeks. Now I am back tring to be part of the soluation in a PC way of course.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/8/2013 2:26:45 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 5
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/8/2013 3:36:51 AM   
rmonical

 

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So are you saying that this rule and example is a myth?

quote:

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).


There is no achievable circumstance in which a German unit will gain 7 morale points in 1942?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 6
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/8/2013 5:14:36 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

So are you saying that this rule and example is a myth?

quote:

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).


There is no achievable circumstance in which a German unit will gain 7 morale points in 1942?


Yes complete myth.

This is how it works.

Morale will go up to 50 1 pt per turn.

Morale will go up from 50 to 60 based on checks ect. If under and army HQ or next to OKH 1 pt per turn 25%ish of the time if that. OKH needs to hang back.

60 to 70, it will be a cold day in hell 2% chance of gaining a point. I had a late war game and ran the numbers for 10 turns and its a 2% chance after 60.

60+ has to be gained from combat.

In other words there is no NM it is basicly window dressing. Things really run on a soft cap system.

If NM is 70 its not easy to gain morale over 70- rolls have to be made. After +10 over NM uber had to gain a pt.

NM for both sides is 60 anything over that has to be gained by winning battles.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 7
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 6:48:45 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 20488
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Gary found a nasty typo in the code that was screwing up the formula when it came to at least this part of the morale gain rules:

3 The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

This may have been in since release, but for sure has been in since December 2011 (because the same bug is in WitW code and that's when we split the code base). We will get a fix into the next public beta version. As far as we can tell, no increase in morale would result from this item due to the typo.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 8
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 7:02:22 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

Gary found a nasty typo in the code that was screwing up the formula when it came to at least this part of the morale gain rules:


Bless you! If you create an export Commander's report to CSV function I may find more anomalies for you. Right now it is incredibly tedious.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 9
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 8:02:39 PM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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This will be a game changer. Finally the badly beaten units will rebound at least to national morale level. No more units sitting at 36 morale for months at the rear :)

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 10
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 8:12:18 PM   
rmonical

 

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quote:

No more units sitting at 36 morale for months at the rear :)


Other functions take the morale up to 50. It is just the getting above 50 when national morale for the unit that is above 50 that is hard.

But, based on my current blizzard experience, it is a huge game changer for Germans who have a miserable blizzard and lose a lot of divisions.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/10/2013 8:21:55 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 11
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 8:30:39 PM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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Perhaps if you have chance to send units more than 10 hexes away from the front line. The first point (The unit's morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.) was blocked with 1.5.18, and I hoped for point 3 (the one not working) to "fix" my units when just 1-2 hexes behind the front line.

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 12
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 9:23:15 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This will be a game changer. Finally the badly beaten units will rebound at least to national morale level. No more units sitting at 36 morale for months at the rear :)

I think so. Never seen a Russian unit gain more than 2 morale per week. Now those fresh units in '41 are going to be dangerous a whole lot quicker. Might even give the axis whingers real reason to gripe.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 13
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/10/2013 10:39:02 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

If you create an export Commander's report to CSV function.


Would be nice if that was in WitW or WitE2, for sure.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 14
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 12:10:36 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2190
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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
This is an interesting development.

If you implement the RAW in this case will it throw out the status quo of the summer 41 game? That is it would appear Soviet morale in will benefit and so less routs etc etc snowball blah blah = more bad for Axis in summer 41.

I think this rule is good for both sides in 42 and beyond but not so sure its good or needed in 41. Might throw things right out of whack.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 15
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 2:37:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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Do I get a apology from 2by3?

Seeing I was dam striaght right over a years ago?

Starting get used to being ignored then proven right by someone esle months later, sad.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/11/2013 2:38:57 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 16
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 2:41:16 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This will be a game changer. Finally the badly beaten units will rebound at least to national morale level. No more units sitting at 36 morale for months at the rear :)


As I posted last spring they do not sit at 36. 1 point per turn to 50, 25% chance to 60 then I recorded over 250 turns worth of units near Berlin and gained 3 pts.

My major bitch was SHC units went right to NM lvls 2 or 3 pts a turn.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 17
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 2:43:18 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

No more units sitting at 36 morale for months at the rear :)


Other functions take the morale up to 50. It is just the getting above 50 when national morale for the unit that is above 50 that is hard.

But, based on my current blizzard experience, it is a huge game changer for Germans who have a miserable blizzard and lose a lot of divisions.


The HUGE help will be in 44/45. My game vs Kamil I had 30 divisions in back that were completely worthless and all my replasements were going to sht morale units(that only gained a pt a turn)


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to rmonical)
Post #: 18
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 2:44:04 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Gary found a nasty typo in the code that was screwing up the formula when it came to at least this part of the morale gain rules:

3 The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

This may have been in since release, but for sure has been in since December 2011 (because the same bug is in WitW code and that's when we split the code base). We will get a fix into the next public beta version. As far as we can tell, no increase in morale would result from this item due to the typo.


When is the bug I reported last year finally going to get fixed?

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 19
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 7:30:38 AM   
morvael


Posts: 2982
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

This is an interesting development.

If you implement the RAW in this case will it throw out the status quo of the summer 41 game? That is it would appear Soviet morale in will benefit and so less routs etc etc snowball blah blah = more bad for Axis in summer 41.

I think this rule is good for both sides in 42 and beyond but not so sure its good or needed in 41. Might throw things right out of whack.


I'm not sure if this is a problem. In 41 NM is only 40, and generally bellow 45-50 Soviet divisions are still CV1 crap. I have just 2-3 divisions that are below 40, and this is in 43 when the NM just reached 50. I guess this fix will help players with high NM, especially on the defensive. So it applies more to Germany in 43-45 than to USSR in 41.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 20
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 8:19:50 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2190
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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
No base morale for USSR is 50 in 41, going down by 1 each month till December. I find it easy to get most units up around 45 to 50. I am sure others do. This rule will only accelerate the process. I am just raising the flag. It will benefit the Sov's in 41. No doubt. Will it swing things too far is my question. The game has been tinkered with and balanced without it. I have concerns, that's all.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 21
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 8:31:35 AM   
Mehring

 

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For those of us interested in approximating reality, the question is weather or not a fix will improve realism. Any amount of re-tweaking to that end is good, however long it takes. This is also a change to the system which has applications beyond this game.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 22
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 8:37:12 AM   
morvael


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From: Poland
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Forgot about that morale change. Will this not compel USSR to do some forward defense at last? Should help the Germans after Blizzard and later. Could push the game in proper direction, but may require some balancing (altering NM levels).

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 23
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/11/2013 10:51:08 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

This is an interesting development.

If you implement the RAW in this case will it throw out the status quo of the summer 41 game? That is it would appear Soviet morale in will benefit and so less routs etc etc snowball blah blah = more bad for Axis in summer 41.

I think this rule is good for both sides in 42 and beyond but not so sure its good or needed in 41. Might throw things right out of whack.


I'm not sure if this is a problem. In 41 NM is only 40, and generally bellow 45-50 Soviet divisions are still CV1 crap. I have just 2-3 divisions that are below 40, and this is in 43 when the NM just reached 50. I guess this fix will help players with high NM, especially on the defensive. So it applies more to Germany in 43-45 than to USSR in 41.


MT is right, but as with allot of missed bugs we are just not going to know the full effects until a game is played through into late 44.

I currently have 3 on going early 43, mid 43 and Dec 43, so if this is patched in I can atleast report the effects for GHC as I have had several end in late 43 and 44.

So I have a before and after data set to compair the effect.

MT would probably be the one to look at the SHC early war.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 24
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/12/2013 7:27:05 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 20488
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
We have a version in test today that has the following:

V1.07.06– April 12, 2013

• New Features and Rule Changes

1. Rule Clarifications – HQ and airbase units do not receive the motorized bonus to national morale. Units do not gain morale while routed. Units may only gain morale outside of combat if their morale is less than 10 points above their national morale, or less than 50, whichever is greater.

• Bug Fixes

1. Fixed a bug that prevented a part of rule 9.1.1 from functioning correctly. Units that were below their national morale were not getting the chance to gain morale simply due to the fact that they were below the national morale. Now they get the chance, and if they go up (they must pass various checks), they will receive an increase of die(10% of their national morale), but not to exceed the national morale.
2. Fixed a bug that prevented Soviet players from being able to create new flak units at cities.


Assuming it seems to be working out ok, it will probably go out early next week. It's anyones guess as to exactly how it will impact balance. It will be working more like we wanted it to work. Expect that Soviet units will come up to NM a bit faster, but it could also be that German units during and after the blizzard will recover their lost morale much quicker as well. Certainly returning destroyed German units will come back to health quicker than before.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 25
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/12/2013 7:39:57 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Wow that was fast

Thanks for up-date

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 26
RE: Morale Recovery for rebuilt units - 4/14/2013 12:21:24 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
So will we have a true NM level now?

In other words will a unit that gets destroied have its morale go up to NM levels faster then the current 2% chance from 60 to 61 ect ect to say 75?

I had posted a very long post on this issue back in spring 2012 with over 12 turns results of over 20 german divisions ( lost 50 to TDV) all next to Berlin withen 5 hexes of OKH. 1942 Berlin is a long ways from front.

1. all gained +1 per turn to 50
2. from 50 to 60 each unit had a 25% chance of gaining 1 pt
3. over 60 only a 2% chance.

How will it work now?

I had no way of putting my finger on the bug itself as I am a total moron with programing and can understand getting ignored from time to time, but I put allot of time into making my case national morale was a myth.

there is no such thing as Nation Morale!!!! Because it was not working correctly.

I know 2by3 thought there was and there should have been but the bug was preventing it from working as the crew wanted it to work.

So I guess after the patch I can support the idea because it will be working?

I have had several threads saying NM was a myth and I guess it was so to speak.

Good to see I was right or atleast 1/2 right as far as units recovering morale to NM levels. (GHC)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 27
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