Matrix Games Forums

Happy Easter!Battle Academy is now available on SteamPlayers compare Ageods Civil War to Civil War IIDeal of the week - An updated War in the East goes half Price!Sign up for the Qvadriga beta for iPad and Android!Come and say hi at Pax and SaluteLegends of War goes on sale!Piercing Fortress Europa Gets UpdatedBattle Academy Mega Pack is now availableClose Combat: Gateway to Caen Teaser Trailer
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force reorganization

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force reorganization Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force reorg... - 3/26/2013 11:20:17 PM   
Hotschi

 

Posts: 316
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
Am reading "The Amphibians Came To Conquer" Volume II, p. 598, came across these lines....

quote:


...COMINCH despatch, reading about as follows;

Effective 15 August Amphibious Forces reorganized as follows
(a) Organize Fifth Amphibious Force (FIFTHPHIBFOR) Rear Admiral Turner
(b) Change Amphibious Force South Pacific to Third Amphibious Force (THIRDPHIB) Rear Admiral Wilkinson
(c) Change Amphibious Force Pacific Fleet to Ninth Amphibious Force (NINTHPHIB) Rear Admiral Rockwell
(d) Change Amphibious Force Southwest Pacific to Seventh Amphibious Force (SEVENTHPHIB) Rear Admiral Barbey
(e) Change Rear Echelon of Amphibious Force Pacific Fleet to Amphibious Training Command Pacific Fleet (PHIBTRAINPAC) Rear Admiral Davis

Commander FIFTHPHIBFORCE is Type Commander for all Amphibious Force Pacific Fleet.

August 1943
DTG: 111902



Couple questions:

1) We have the Third, Fifth and Seventh Amphibious HQ's in the game, but not the Ninth - was the Ninth IRL just some sort of administrative body in the rear? (PHIBTRAINPAC is irrelevant for the game)

2) What is a "Type Commander"?

3) How was the relation of these commands to each other, did they only report to the respective Fleets (i.e. 3rd Fleet/Halsey, 5th Fleet/Spruance, 7th Fleet/Kinkaid, or were they also linked somehow together separately?

4) Why FIFTHPHIBFOR in this despatch, but THIRDPHIB, NINTHPHIB and SEVENTHPHIB for the other three... laziness on the part of King's secretary (or whoever drafted this) or is there a deeper reason?

Thanks guys

_____________________________

"One day, Tom, you'll be standing on a box on your bridge, and your ship will be smashed to pieces by bombers and torpedo aircraft; as she sinks, your last words will be "That was a f**ing great mine!""
- Air Marshal Arthur Harris to Adm Tom Phillips
Post #: 1
RE: Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force r... - 3/27/2013 12:12:39 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8029
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
Not a complete answer, but look here

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/OOB/PacFleet/Org-450501/index.html

That's the US Navy organization in the Pacific as of May 1, 1945. Going to be a little different than your date as things were still expanding in 1943, and by May 1945 were pretty set.

Looks like 1st Fleet was all the Type commnaders under one roof, with 3rd Fleet, Fifth Fleet, and Ninth Fleet the operating forces.

A type commander then and now I think (the concept started in WWII I'm pretty sure) is a commander who "owns" a type of vessel. Sub, destroyer, cruiser, mine craft, etc. An operating fleet commander fights the assets. He doesn't take care of them. The type commander structure does that. Repair and maintenance, training, provisioning, alterations and upgrades, etc. All the housekeeping needed to get a warship ready to go up to the battle zone and fight is done by the type commander. Then he "chops" the ship to the fleet commander, and he puts it in a task force/task unit/task element to fight. If it gets damaged it's sent to the rear and the type commander owns it again unitl it's ready to go fight.

We still use this system today, modified by a unified theater command structure whichj integrates the navy, army, air force, Marines, and strategic assets into a chian of command which reports directly to the SecDef and then the POTUS, with the Joint Chiefs of Staff as advisors, but not operational commanders.

Looking at the Hyperwar document, it looks like the PhibForce COs rode the command and control ships, the AGCs. At least in May 1945.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 3/27/2013 12:15:12 AM >


_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 2
RE: Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force r... - 3/27/2013 12:48:56 AM   
msieving1


Posts: 382
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Missouri
Status: offline
Ninth Fleet operated in Alaskan waters. There weren't many amphibious actions in Alaska after Attu and Kiska were retaken, so Ninth Amphibious Force wouldn't have had much to do.

(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 3
RE: Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force r... - 3/27/2013 11:01:47 AM   
Gunner98


Posts: 763
Joined: 4/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi


Commander FIFTHPHIBFORCE is Type Commander for all Amphibious Force Pacific Fleet.

4) Why FIFTHPHIBFOR in this despatch, but THIRDPHIB, NINTHPHIB and SEVENTHPHIB for the other three... laziness on the part of King's secretary (or whoever drafted this) or is there a deeper reason?

Thanks guys


Just a guess but perhaps due to the 'type Commander' role as explained by The Moose, the 5th was a larger or more diverse command than the other three.

B

(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 4
RE: Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force r... - 3/27/2013 3:15:58 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2140
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi


Commander FIFTHPHIBFORCE is Type Commander for all Amphibious Force Pacific Fleet.

4) Why FIFTHPHIBFOR in this despatch, but THIRDPHIB, NINTHPHIB and SEVENTHPHIB for the other three... laziness on the part of King's secretary (or whoever drafted this) or is there a deeper reason?

Thanks guys


Just a guess but perhaps due to the 'type Commander' role as explained by The Moose, the 5th was a larger or more diverse command than the other three.

B


Its because 5th Amphib was the senior commander for all amphib forces.


< Message edited by oldman45 -- 3/27/2013 3:17:08 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 5
RE: Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force r... - 3/27/2013 3:25:42 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8029
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi


Commander FIFTHPHIBFORCE is Type Commander for all Amphibious Force Pacific Fleet.

4) Why FIFTHPHIBFOR in this despatch, but THIRDPHIB, NINTHPHIB and SEVENTHPHIB for the other three... laziness on the part of King's secretary (or whoever drafted this) or is there a deeper reason?

Thanks guys


Just a guess but perhaps due to the 'type Commander' role as explained by The Moose, the 5th was a larger or more diverse command than the other three.

B


Its because 5th Amphib was the senior commander for all amphib forces.



Lineal numbers were jealously guarded and wielded in WWII by Academy grads. Far more than today. This is an excellent display of that.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 6
RE: Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force r... - 3/28/2013 8:25:15 PM   
Hotschi

 

Posts: 316
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
Thanks for the answers, makes sense to me now.

Regarding the Type Commander's responsibilities, now I understand why Turner wanted a "Administrative Command" established as well (according to the book mentioned) to free him of all those duties and thus being able to concentrate on the operational stuff.

About upgrades of ships, does this mean the type commander actually decides what kind of upgrades a ship gets, or is this up to some Bureau (BUSHIPS, BUORD or whatever) and the type commander does the scheduling only? Do ships' captains have any say in what gets fitted onto their vessel?

No wonder we have no Ninth Amphibious Force in the game, due to its limited use in real. Against the AI, I have never seen a japanese invasion of Aleutean islands at all, so there would rise the temptation to use such a additional HQ in another theater.

Many many thanks for the link, it conatins information I was looking for since years ( all the divisions and squadrons )

quote:


Looking at the Hyperwar document, it looks like the PhibForce COs rode the command and control ships, the AGCs. At least in May 1945.


The book says the same, the AGC's were designed for just this reason - but none was already available for Tarawa so a battleship was used instead.

_____________________________

"One day, Tom, you'll be standing on a box on your bridge, and your ship will be smashed to pieces by bombers and torpedo aircraft; as she sinks, your last words will be "That was a f**ing great mine!""
- Air Marshal Arthur Harris to Adm Tom Phillips

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 7
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Question; COMINCH despatch about Amphibious Force reorganization Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.076