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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> What can I do better?

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What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 1:24:54 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online

Hi All,

After suffering another defeat to a US DD only surface group I'm left wondering what I can do to improve my chances. Or is this as good as it gets!

In 44 it seems no matter what I throw at US DDs the IJN can't hit and gets chewed up severely. If I were going in with only destroyers I could understand this completely. I know US guns fired more accurately and with more regularity, but CA and BB led TFs are getting nailed now.

Here are several combat reports. I usually choose leaders with 70+ naval and 60-65 aggression. All ship commanders have been changed out for good ones, and the ships had little wear and tear going into these battles. We had good DL on the enemy ships and from what it seemed they had less info on ours in each case.

I'm looking for game advice to see what I could do better. Just trying to learn more here. This is a small sample size but it's all I have.

This first one the IJN did well at night in the first installment and got wiped out in the next battle against another TF. Hyuga took enough damage to have to head to the HI to get repaired.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1/44

Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,133, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 5
DD Naganami, Shell hits 1
DD Kiyonami, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Michishio, Shell hits 1
DD Murasame, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Yudachi
DD Samidare, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Uranami

Allied Ships
DD Jenkins, Shell hits 1
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 1
DD O'Bannon
DD Stanly, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Strong, Shell hits 1
DD Selfridge, Shell hits 2
DD Balch, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
DD Clark, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 24,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
Coward, Jesse G. crosses the 'T'
BB Hyuga engages DD Clark at 8,000 yards
DD Clark sunk by DD Yudachi at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Balch at 3,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Stanly at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,133, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 5
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 7
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 16, on fire
DD Naganami, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
DD Kiyonami, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
DD Michishio, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Murasame, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 1
DD Samidare, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Uranami, Shell hits 25, and is sunk

Allied Ships
DD Fletcher, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD Bache, Shell hits 2
DD Bradford, Shell hits 13, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Conway, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Cony, Shell hits 3
DD DeHaven, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Eaton, Shell hits 16, and is sunk
DD McKee, Shell hits 5, on fire

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 8,000 yards
DD McKee launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD DeHaven launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD Cony launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD Cony fires at DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Bradford launches Torpedoes at DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Bradford fires at DD Murasame at 8,000 yards
DD Fletcher launches Torpedoes at DD Michishio at 8,000 yards
DD DeHaven fires at DD Kiyonami at 8,000 yards
DD Cony fires at DD Naganami at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD DeHaven at 3,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Cony at 3,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Cony at 3,000 yards
DD Cony engages DD Samidare at 3,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Bradford at 3,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bache at 3,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Fletcher at 3,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD McKee at 3,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Fletcher at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD McKee at 4,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD Cony at 4,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Bache at 4,000 yards
DD Cony engages DD Uranami at 4,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Bache at 4,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Yudachi at 4,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Samidare at 4,000 yards
DD DeHaven engages DD Michishio at 4,000 yards
DD Cony engages DD Kiyonami at 4,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Naganami at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD McKee at 3,000 yards
DD Eaton engages DD Samidare at 3,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Fletcher at 3,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Cony at 3,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Samidare at 3,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Bache at 3,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Murasame at 3,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Kiyonami at 3,000 yards
DD Cony engages DD Naganami at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Cony at 5,000 yards
DD Eaton engages DD Murasame at 5,000 yards
DD DeHaven engages DD Murasame at 5,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Cony at 5,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Conway at 5,000 yards
DD Bradford engages DD Yudachi at 5,000 yards
DD Bradford engages DD Murasame at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Fletcher at 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Eaton at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD McKee at 8,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD Fletcher at 8,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD DeHaven at 8,000 yards
DD Cony engages DD Murasame at 8,000 yards
DD Conway engages DD Uranami at 8,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Fletcher at 8,000 yards
DD McKee engages DD Murasame at 8,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Cony at 8,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Bache at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD McKee at 7,000 yards
DD Eaton engages DD Kiyonami at 7,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Fletcher at 7,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Bache at 7,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Bache at 7,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD McKee at 7,000 yards
DD Bradford engages DD Murasame at 7,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Fletcher at 7,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD DeHaven at 7,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Cony at 7,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Fletcher at 7,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD DeHaven at 7,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Conway at 7,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Bradford at 7,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Bache at 7,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Fletcher at 7,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Bache at 7,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Naganami at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD McKee at 5,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Eaton at 5,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD DeHaven at 5,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Cony at 5,000 yards
DD Conway engages DD Murasame at 5,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Bradford at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bache at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Fletcher at 5,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Kiyonami at 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD DeHaven at 5,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD McKee at 5,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD Eaton at 5,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD DeHaven at 5,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Eaton at 5,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Yudachi at 5,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Bradford at 5,000 yards
DD Bradford engages DD Michishio at 5,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Fletcher at 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD DeHaven at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD McKee at 4,000 yards
DD Eaton engages DD Murasame at 4,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD DeHaven at 4,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Cony at 4,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Eaton at 4,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Bradford at 4,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Bache at 4,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Fletcher at 4,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Conway at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
DD McKee engages DD Murasame at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Eaton at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD DeHaven at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyonami engages DD Conway at 6,000 yards
DD Kiyonami sunk by DD Bache at 6,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Naganami at 6,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD McKee at 5,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD Bache at 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD DeHaven at 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Cony at 5,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Yudachi at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Eaton at 5,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD McKee at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Fletcher at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Eaton at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD DeHaven at 2,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Uranami at 2,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Eaton at 2,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Murasame at 2,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Naganami at 2,000 yards
Yoshitomi, Setsuzo orders Japanese TF to disengage
BB Hyuga engages DD Cony at 2,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD DeHaven at 2,000 yards
DD DeHaven engages DD Uranami at 2,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Eaton at 2,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Bradford at 2,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bache at 2,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Fletcher at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Eaton at 2,000 yards
DD Murasame sunk by DD DeHaven at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami engages DD Cony at 2,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Conway at 2,000 yards
DD McKee engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Eaton at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD McKee at 2,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Eaton at 2,000 yards
Magazine explodes on DD Eaton
DD Eaton sunk by BB Nagato at 2,000 yards
DD Cony engages DD Naganami at 2,000 yards
DD Bradford engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
DD Naganami engages DD Bache at 2,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Fletcher at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD McKee at 2,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD Bradford at 2,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Conway at 2,000 yards
DD Naganami sunk by DD Conway at 2,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Bradford at 2,000 yards
DD Conway engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards
Moosbrugger, Fred orders Allied TF to disengage
BB Hyuga engages DD Bradford at 2,000 yards
DD DeHaven engages DD Yudachi at 2,000 yards
DD Uranami sunk by DD Cony at 2,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Bradford at 2,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bradford at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD McKee at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD DeHaven at 5,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Cony at 5,000 yards
DD Conway engages DD Yudachi at 5,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Bradford at 5,000 yards
DD Yudachi engages DD Bache at 5,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Michishio at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD McKee at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD McKee at 10,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Conway at 10,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Michishio at 10,000 yards
DD Bache engages DD Yudachi at 10,000 yards
DD Fletcher engages DD Michishio at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this one the IJN took on an ASW TF with better numbers and the two CLs with at least a few bigger caliber guns. In a night battle with 100% moon I would have thought there would be a bit more carnage and that the IJN would do well getting down to 3k yards.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Natori
CL Yura
DD Natsushio
DD Yukikaze, Shell hits 1
DD Sazanami, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Fumizuki
DD Kikuzuki
DD Nagatsuki

Allied Ships
DD Russell
DD Perkins, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Smith, Shell hits 1
DD Preston, Shell hits 1, on fire

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 8,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages DD Preston at 8,000 yards
DD Perkins engages DD Natsushio at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
DD Preston engages DD Natsushio at 3,000 yards
DD Smith engages CL Natori at 3,000 yards
DD Perkins engages DD Natsushio at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/44

In these recent battles two TFs went for Sarmi in North New Guinea and the DD TF was protecting the area. These are daytime battles. I would have thought by the second at least the IJN would have had a decent advantage. Mutsu lost a 40cm turret in this battle and now needs time in the yard as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Sarmi at 90,113, Range 18,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato, Shell hits 2
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 15, on fire
DD Hayashimo, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Yukikaze, Shell hits 5
DD Hamakaze, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hatsuharu, Shell hits 6, heavy fires
DD Hatsushima, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Yugure, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
DD Bullard, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Capps, Shell hits 1
DD Gatling, Shell hits 1
DD Halligan
DD Marshall, Shell hits 1
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 1
DD O'Bannon
DD Stanly, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Strong
DD Selfridge, Shell hits 3, and is sunk

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 24,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 18,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD O'Bannon at 18,000 yards
DD Hayashimo engages DD Bullard at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
BB Mutsu engages DD Selfridge at 7,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Bullard at 25,000 yards
Fujisawa, Takamasa orders Japanese TF to disengage
Task forces break off...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Sarmi at 91,114, Range 24,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 1
CA Suzuya
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Tanikaze, Shell hits 3
DD Asashio, Shell hits 1, and is sunk 1 hit!
DD Arashio, Shell hits 2
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
DD Bullard, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
DD Capps, Shell hits 1
DD Gatling, Shell hits 2
DD Halligan
DD Marshall, Shell hits 3
DD Nicholas
DD O'Bannon, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Stanly, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Strong, Shell hits 1

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 24,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 24,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages DD Stanly at 24,000 yards
DD Bullard engages DD Yudachi at 10,000 yards
Burke, Arleigh A. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range closes to 7,000 yards
CA Suzuya engages DD Strong at 7,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Bullard at 16,000 yards
Task forces break off...

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/26/2013 1:30:44 PM >

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Post #: 1

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 1:40:13 PM

Capt Hornblower

Posts: 224
Joined: 10/29/2010
Status: offline

Let me get this straight-- it's 1944, you're playing the Japanese, and you expect the same kind of one-sided outcomes you might have gotten in 1942? Dream on.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 1:47:43 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 15479
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Now there's a polite reply to a genuine question that had been posed by a respected, gentlemanly member of the Forum.�

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Post #: 3

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 1:47:49 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14330
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: USA Me-FL-DC-Guam-WS-NE-IL-?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

Let me get this straight-- it's 1944, you're playing the Japanese, and you expect the same kind of one-sided outcomes you might have gotten in 1942? Dream on.

That's a little harsh , Paul. It's true the allies have better trained crews, torpedos that now work, RADAR and the training to use it right.

I'd recommend the Japanese player do what he can. "Cherry pick" his leaders and Captains, and try to use scout planes as efficiently as possible. Use what you have , as best as you can. And as always , try to use LBA for patrol and scouting to augment your ship's organic sensors.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 1:56:23 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

Let me get this straight-- it's 1944, you're playing the Japanese, and you expect the same kind of one-sided outcomes you might have gotten in 1942? Dream on.

Yes, this is not at all meant to suggest the Allies are not superior in every category of naval equipment, tactics and rate of fire historically. This is a game question.

There is no expectation of outcomes. There is the effort to learn more and do better. If the US only needed Fletcher DDs to win the Pacific war why did we build CL/CA/BB?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

That's a little harsh , Paul. It's true the allies have better trained crews, torpedos that now work, RADAR and the training to use it right.

I'd recommend the Japanese player do what he can. "Cherry pick" his leaders and Captains, and try to use scout planes as efficiently as possible. Use what you have , as best as you can. And as always , try to use LBA for patrol and scouting to augment your ship's organic sensors.

In terms of leaders every ship has been checked and changed. Scouts operated at night and during the day phases from both the BBs and CA/CL in the series of battles here, plus extensive LBA patrol and FP flights during both phases as well. All with 70 skill naval search pilots. These are all close to IJ bases (within 5 hexes) so the enemy TFs were pretty lit up while mine were coming in from a distance with seemingly less DL.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/26/2013 2:00:40 PM >

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 1:56:39 PM

JocMeister

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

Let me get this straight-- it's 1944, you're playing the Japanese, and you expect the same kind of one-sided outcomes you might have gotten in 1942? Dream on.

Such a useful comment!

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 2:04:28 PM

castor troy

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From: Austria
Status: offline

main difference is the fact that late war US combat ships are appearing in the game with night experience levels around 70 which is the most important factor IMO. Not much you can do about it, perhaps trying to evade the USN completely and use your Navy as a force in being.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/26/2013 2:05:01 PM >

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 2:28:26 PM

JocMeister

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From: Sweden
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I think CT is on to something. I just checked the EXP of the DDs involved in the second battle vs the BBs and CAs. Most of them had 75+ EXP and some over 80 in day EXP. About 10 lower in night EXP. Also had Arleigh Burke in command.

Out of curiosity. Did something like this ever happen in the war during this time? Fletchers vs Japanese capital ships?

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 2:30:40 PM

nashvillen

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From: Christiana, TN
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Does Taffey 3 ring a bell? The three Fletchers there put up such a fight as to give the IJN questions as to what was over the horizon.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 2:39:19 PM

AW1Steve

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Surigao Strait ? True it was a guantlet of 1st PT's, then DD's then Old BB's. But the DD's were very effective in their torpedo attacks.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 2:49:03 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

main difference is the fact that late war US combat ships are appearing in the game with night experience levels around 70 which is the most important factor IMO. Not much you can do about it, perhaps trying to evade the USN completely and use your Navy as a force in being.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I think CT is on to something. I just checked the EXP of the DDs involved in the second battle vs the BBs and CAs. Most of them had 75+ EXP and some over 80 in day EXP. About 10 lower in night EXP. Also had Arleigh Burke in command.

This could be most of it, then. The IJN ships were all around 70-75 in day experience, and I would guess 65-75 in night.

This factor must enhance the other advantages of the US ships exponentially, because these results certainly didn't happen early.

Has anyone had a different kid of result late? Where the IJB BB/CA led TFs threw their weight around and did well. I've managed to get ALL of the IJN BB into the late game through a lot of good fortune, and now it seems almost useless to have them except for bombardments and KB escort for the fast ones. Especially considering I'll be out of DD escorts if I have more engagements like these.

I seem to remember rader getting a good amount of success later in game with big SAGs of 25 ships or so, but I can't even manage that many to put together and I would be afraid to lose a high proportion, just magnifying the problem.

quote:

Out of curiosity. Did something like this ever happen in the war during this time? Fletchers vs Japanese capital ships?

quote:

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

Does Taffey 3 ring a bell? The three Fletchers there put up such a fight as to give the IJN questions as to what was over the horizon.

I looked through all US DD losses for those in 44-45 against surface forces, and this and Ormoc Bay were the only ones I located. Both included airpower as a significant factor during the battles.

Those DDs and DEs heading right at 20+ IJN ships including Yamato still gives me the chills when I think about it.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/26/2013 2:58:29 PM >

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 3:00:29 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Surigao Strait ? True it was a guantlet of 1st PT's, then DD's then Old BB's. But the DD's were very effective in their torpedo attacks.

In game I guess the DL of the Japanese would have been through the roof, where that of the Allies would have been fairly low. A lot of DDs present here as well. Not sure if all 28 attacked, but that's a lot in any case.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/26/2013 3:08:24 PM >

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 3:05:04 PM

Captain Cruft

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It's the radar plus the experience values.

Late war I would not engage Allied surface forces without having attacked them from the air first to degrade their capabilities and reduce their ammo. Even tiny bombs can take out the radars.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 3:30:50 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

It's the radar plus the experience values.

Late war I would not engage Allied surface forces without having attacked them from the air first to degrade their capabilities and reduce their ammo. Even tiny bombs can take out the radars.

Yep. This was my fear.

I still am holding out that someone has had better results, or remembers a game where the IJN ships did fare better from a better ability to manage their use.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 4:17:40 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Surigao Strait ? True it was a guantlet of 1st PT's, then DD's then Old BB's. But the DD's were very effective in their torpedo attacks.

In game I guess the DL of the Japanese would have been through the roof, where that of the Allies would have been fairly low. A lot of DDs present here as well. Not sure if all 28 attacked, but that's a lot in any case.

There's a line in the first big combat report that the Japanese were surprised. Radar? Night? Dice? All three? Being surprised is never a good thing in the game.

This is the very definition of "caught flatfooted":

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 8,000 yards
DD McKee launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD DeHaven launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD Cony launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD Cony fires at DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Bradford launches Torpedoes at DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Bradford fires at DD Murasame at 8,000 yards
DD Fletcher launches Torpedoes at DD Michishio at 8,000 yards
DD DeHaven fires at DD Kiyonami at 8,000 yards
DD Cony fires at DD Naganami at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards

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Post #: 15

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 4:25:25 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Surigao Strait ? True it was a guantlet of 1st PT's, then DD's then Old BB's. But the DD's were very effective in their torpedo attacks.

In game I guess the DL of the Japanese would have been through the roof, where that of the Allies would have been fairly low. A lot of DDs present here as well. Not sure if all 28 attacked, but that's a lot in any case.

There's a line in the first big combat report that the Japanese were surprised. Radar? Night? Dice? All three? Being surprised is never a good thing in the game.

This is the very definition of "caught flatfooted":

Improved night sighting under 100% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 100% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 8,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 8,000 yards
DD McKee launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD DeHaven launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD Cony launches Torpedoes at BB Mutsu at 8,000 yards
DD Cony fires at DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Bradford launches Torpedoes at DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Bradford fires at DD Murasame at 8,000 yards
DD Fletcher launches Torpedoes at DD Michishio at 8,000 yards
DD DeHaven fires at DD Kiyonami at 8,000 yards
DD Cony fires at DD Naganami at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards

Odd since we were going in with complete knowledge of force disposition from multiple recon, scout, and patrol sightings over may days!

But yes, in the report and the results this didn't turn out well for exactly that reason in the second battle.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 4:29:33 PM

janh

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The experience plus the radar count big time, but having a skilled aggressive commander like Burke or Tanaka also makes a significant difference.

While your first night-time engagement went actually quite well (just as the 2nd of your cited daytime actions seems actually fairly even), in the second night time fight you have a spotting disadvantage on the Japanese side in addition to the Allied spotting/targeting radar advantage: it is much easier to spot a capital ship at <11,000y from a DD than the other way around. You can use the same advantage with DD TFs good time as Japanese, particularly in 42 when the Long Lances rule.

While the US seem to have fired at 8ky, the Japanese reacted much later (closer) just as Chickenboy said. It is a very clear defeat, very one-sided, though. On average I think you did better during the day-time actions with reasonable visibility, where at least the spotting isn't "superseded" by radar so much.

I'd recommend to go after enemy DD's only with your own plus a CL or two, or some of the fast CA like Tone, especially at night and that late in the war. Maybe aim for daylight actions, or night actions in good weather and near full moon?

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Post #: 17

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 5:09:35 PM

jmalter

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IIRC it was Nemo who pointed out that sisters work better in surface combat, an ideal SurfTF would have BBs paired w/ their sister-ships, & all DDs of the same class & upgrade status.

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Post #: 18

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 5:11:27 PM

Jim D Burns

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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 8,000 yards

It's too late in your game, but I think when playing as Japan you should be using 1942 to train up your fleets every chance you get. Even though it isn't needed, you should shore bombard every single Allied land unit 3-5 times or more before you invade and take it out. Getting your night combat rating up above 80% if possible is critical to taking on the late war allied technology.

Unlike air squadrons who lose experience when their pilots get shot down, your ships retain all training throughout the war, so use 1942 to make your already good crews uber elite crews if possible. It's the only weapon you'll have to overcome allied technology in the late war. It still won't guarantee success, but it will guarantee the likelihood of failure due to bad die rolls is a lot less.

Jim

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 5:14:42 PM

Chickenboy

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Hiya Obvert. I can't see anything overtly wrong about your setup or your approach to naval combat. The Fletcher class DDs are formidable opponents at this juncture.

Have you experienced some anti-DD success with DBs or Kamikazes? DBs seem to work pretty well as an anti-destroyer tool IMO. TBs not so much. Japanese DDs, decreasingly (and depressingly) so.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 5:46:20 PM

Cap Mandrake

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From: Southern California
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Send in a small DD force with the BB's to follow.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:01:12 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online

All good info guys. It is a tough dilemma to try to stay competitive when of course by all historical markers the IJN shouldn't really be at this point in 44.

quote:

Have you experienced some anti-DD success with DBs or Kamikazes? DBs seem to work pretty well as an anti-destroyer tool IMO. TBs not so much. Japanese DDs, decreasingly (and depressingly) so.

No real use of DBs yet against these DD flotillas as the LBA CAP has been close and plentiful in our game in the tight area around the Solomon and Bismark Seas.

quote:

The experience plus the radar count big time, but having a skilled aggressive commander like Burke or Tanaka also makes a significant difference.

In another engagement similar to these in the past six months (that I couldn't find in my AAR) Tanaka was commanding and I thought I lost him when his CA flagship was shot out from under him. He switched his flag onto a CL and got out though, making it back safely. If I recall correctly it didn't help to have him and I sometimes wonder if his high aggression might keep ships going toward the target after it's clear they've lost the fight.

I've been picking the highest naval skill I can matched with at least 60 aggression, but not over 65 usually of late.

quote:

IIRC it was Nemo who pointed out that sisters work better in surface combat, an ideal SurfTF would have BBs paired w/ their sister-ships, & all DDs of the same class & upgrade status.

I'm not sure I'm quite organized enough to always do this, but I try to get as close as possible.

quote:

It's too late in your game, but I think when playing as Japan you should be using 1942 to train up your fleets every chance you get. Even though it isn't needed, you should shore bombard every single Allied land unit 3-5 times or more before you invade and take it out. Getting your night combat rating up above 80% if possible is critical to taking on the late war allied technology.

While we did have a lot of combat throughout, and I've bombarded when it seemed appropriate, I also hesitate to do this simply to raise experience. For one it also puts these ships at risk. Mines can be trouble and if the settings get messed up, PTs interfere, or any number of other slowing factors occur, valuable ships can get left hanging in Indian country pretty easily. The first battle above was a bombardment mission to hit Milne Bay. A bit of a risk, but the rewards would have been sweet at that point as well.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/26/2013 6:02:08 PM >

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:04:10 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Send in a small DD force with the BB's to follow.

I might try this. It's the DDs I lose now as well though and that is the main issue with the current set-up. But maybe at least I'd get more bang out of the BB/CA portion this way and get to target if it's important enough to sacrifice the little guys.

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:17:36 PM

V I Lenin

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/30/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

IIRC it was Nemo who pointed out that sisters work better in surface combat, an ideal SurfTF would have BBs paired w/ their sister-ships, & all DDs of the same class & upgrade status.

I think technically not important the class, but having the same guns.

Other important thing often overlooked is speed of force as a whole; Fletcher DD capable of 38kts, old Japanese battleship only 24 or 25. In that situation destroyer-only force is much more capable to maneuver...Japanese destroyers are tied to battleships and cannot use their speed properly.

It is interesting. Allied destroyers are mostly suited to engage independently - cruisers mostly do 30-32kts while destroyers 35-38. So, they perform 'best' alone where they can take advantage. For Japanese cruisers are quite fast at 31-35kts while even fastest destroyers (except unique Shimakaze at 38 also) do mostly 33 and sometimes even less. So, Japanese do not suffer from operating with cruisers beyond what they would anyway from being relatively slower.

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Post #: 24

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:45:14 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 17285
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The first battle above was a bombardment mission to hit Milne Bay. A bit of a risk, but the rewards would have been sweet at that point as well.

I think this point is key, at least for your first two battles listed. Bombardment mission TF's do not perform as well as Surface Combat mission TF's.

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Post #: 25

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:51:27 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The first battle above was a bombardment mission to hit Milne Bay. A bit of a risk, but the rewards would have been sweet at that point as well.

I think this point is key, at least for your first two battles listed. Bombardment mission TF's do not perform as well as Surface Combat mission TF's.

In all of this time I've always had bombardment TFs do very well in surface combat, but maybe I've just been fortunate. It's good to know. Wish I had the time right now to make a simple test to see how much better the SCTF would do. It's definitely going on the ever growing list!

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:54:39 PM

HansBolter

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Aside from all the obvious facts already related regarding the significant upgrade in speed, firpower, radar gun control and crew experience I have to side with Jocke in pointing out the Burke is one of the best surface commanders the Americans have. I think his agressiveness is 85!

You are already doing all the right thgs as a player to maximize the performance of what you have to work with. I think CT hit the nail on the head.....maintain your navy as a force in being and avoid combat.

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Post #: 27

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 6:56:38 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Aside from all the obvious facts already related regarding the significant upgrade in speed, firpower, radar gun control and crew experience I have to side with Jocke in pointing out the Burke is one of the best surface commanders the Americans have. I think his agressiveness is 85!

You are already doing all the right thgs as a player to maximize the performance of what you have to work with. I think CT hit the nail on the head.....maintain your navy as a force in being and avoid combat.

Yes. At least pick my spots.

If you're coming for Leyte Jocke, watch out!

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RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 7:07:13 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Odd since we were going in with complete knowledge of force disposition from multiple recon, scout, and patrol sightings over may days!

But yes, in the report and the results this didn't turn out well for exactly that reason in the second battle.

There's a difference in RL between knowing an enemy is within 40 or 80 miles and being able to see 12,000 yds (6 miles) at night. Radar rules.

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Post #: 29

RE: What can I do better? - 3/26/2013 7:32:37 PM

obvert

Posts: 11215
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Odd since we were going in with complete knowledge of force disposition from multiple recon, scout, and patrol sightings over may days!

But yes, in the report and the results this didn't turn out well for exactly that reason in the second battle.

There's a difference in RL between knowing an enemy is within 40 or 80 miles and being able to see 12,000 yds (6 miles) at night. Radar rules.

Yes. I see your point.

Just read some interesting accounts from the later Solomons where the US saw the Tokyo Express on the radar, knew they would be there anyway from signint, had a Cat spotter up above and still got 3 CLs long lanced and a DD sunk. By 44 I think they had it worked out though.

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