Noticed a v4.3.249 Update (IGNORE POST)

[vj531]

Battles from the Bulge v4.3.249 Update

It say s it here ftp://ftp.matrixgames.com/pub/BattlesFr ... v43249.zip

The above does not work - but wondered if the v4.3.249 exists for down load elsewhere?

thanks?

Stephen

IGNORE THIS POST (see Phoenix's post below for explanation.)

[Phoenix100]

Just worked out. It's an old update. Got the numbers confused, Stephen.

[Bazza042]

I tend to use this scenario as the 'tutorial' for the HTTR scenarios.

Has anyone playing the Allies and using the normal settings and realistic order delays come away with anything better than a marginal victory since the 4.4.258 release?

I tend to use the 3 Irish Guards Bn, which is mainly infantry, to clear south of the river and then 'release' the Irish Guards Group HQ with the remaining assets to
assault and secure the bridge, and the bridge objective area. Then push on to La Colonie on the third day with whichever assets are best placed to assault.

This used to bring, subject to the normal (excellent) variations of BFTB AI, a decisive victory about 80% of the time.

However since the new release, despite the area south of the river being cleared, the Irish Guards HQ regularly (nearly always) stalls with a 'flash' message

"The Irish Guards Group HQ's move task has stalled and is waiting". This despite the Allied units holding both the deGroot barrier and Joe's bridge objectives and five of the Guards units being
to the north of the river, assaulting happily with no Germans in close contact. I do get a (worse) variation at times when the flash message comes up with the Guards Group move task is stalled and is replanning. This normally involves units to the north of the bridge withdrawing to a FP south of the barrier and then almost immediately mounting another assault to get back north of the river.

This seems to be a new message introduced in the new release and I wonder what is causing it.

I make no claim to being an expert on BFTB and would appreciate any advice on the specifics of this message and what could be causing it.


(The German reinforcements which come in on Day 2, south of the river, I hold at bay with a small holding force in the woods by Winnerloop so I cannot see
that they should affect the action as the Irish Guards HQ is normally about halfway between the crossroads and the deGroote barrier when it stops and the message is issued.
I've surrendered on a couple of occassions to see whether there is some random, and unseen, German force affecting the move but there never is)

[Phoenix100]

Someone would need to move the preceding message (and this) to the Patch 4 thread, perhaps. In fact, this thread could probs be deleted as it arose on a confusion about version numbers and might confuse.

Haven't played Joe's Bridge in a long while, but I used to get decisive vics with about 3 orders, the whole scenario, using tactics much like those you outline. Could only be a good thing if it's harder, maybe. However, the message sounds wrong if there's no obstruction. As I understood it these new flash messages were meant to signal obstruction encountered and a consequent re-plan.

[Phoenix100]

Just played it through. It was certainly harder. I played it on full speed and pause only, because didn't have much time. Got a draw, see below. Only a draw because couldn't get into La Colonie. If I played it normal speed and took manual control of arty and so on I think I would have gotten into La Colonie. Plus I made an (instructive) error. I used both 2IG and 3IG to take the crossing, a coordinated attack that worked like a treat. I was over the bridge etc by morning day 2 and then I just gave them all 'norm' rest orders and let them sit there right through the night to recover before trying for La Colonie on day 3. However, I made the mistake of doing the assault order for La colonie to start (Assault At....)6.30am day 3, but left the default 'start' time as when I made the order - about 9pm the night before. Instead of sitting there resting until 4 or so, they reorged right through the night and hence didn't get any rest at all!!!!! The assault, when it came, stalled (no reason given) - stalled many times, in fact (suggesting, I guess, that the AI kept trying to get over the stall). So then, about 11am day 3, I gave a Move order to both BNs, with attack ticked. That didn't stall, and was doing ok when time ran out.

I didn't get the same flash message you got, Bazza. But the assault on day 3 did run into issues, obviously. The main issue was that they ran out of ammo repeatedly!! This may have been why they stalled. Not sure. I had forgotten to set the ammo use rate to 'min' (which, due to a bug Dave discovered yesterday, in fact will give them closer to a norm expenditure). This whole position with ammo running out will probably be diff with the next build, as it's due to this 'bug'.

The other 'issue' I had was that the Axis were able to put in a much more effective bombard than I recall from the last time I played this. So all my reorging over the bridge was subject to massive arty fire.

Ammo issue aside, it looks like this scenario is (pleasantly) more challenging on .258.

I wonder if your own stalls were due to the ammo running out? Not sure if that is a reason why an attack would stall (though that would make sense). Did you not find your lead troops were running out of ammo a lot?

[Phoenix100]

Spoke too soon. Just played it through again on full speed, but this time I just kept moving the attack marker a bit further on. Didn't let them rest at all (excpet kept rest option at 'normal', so they did rest - but I didn't plan rest through night 2, as before). Consequently, took La Colonie on Day 2, cleared it by mid day 3. Results below.

[Phoenix100]

I think this is one of the two or three easy scenarios for allies. As I posted before (somewhere in the old AAR posts, it will be), I think you can do a decisive victory on about 5 clicks. Let the AI do virtually everything. Give only on-map boss commands, with very slight tinkering.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I think this is one of the two or three easy scenarios for allies. As I posted before (somewhere in the old AAR posts, it will be), I think you can do a decisive victory on about 5 clicks. Let the AI do virtually everything. Give only on-map boss commands, with very slight tinkering.

Don't let CO detractors hear you say that. Something thats been thrown at the game for years. Personally some easy scenarios for newbies and just for fun are a good thing I feel.

[Phoenix100]

Didn't say it was a bad thing. It's amazing that the AI can successfully run an entire scenario on 5 clicks. It's a good thing, a unique thing - it's what sets this game apart. If you criticise Command Ops on the basis of that then you shouldn't be playing it, for sure. There are plenty of click-fests out there for you.

It's not so much fun to do like that, of course. If you run it slow and properly, I've found, it usually turns out to be more engrossing and harder to get the win!!

That's just this scenario, anyway. There's plenty more where I can't beat the AI, no matter what.

And in any case - if you object (not you personally, Jason, but those you refer to, whoever they are) to the AI capabilities you're aiming at the wrong target - if a scenario is too easy for your tastes (and I definitely did not say this one was too easy for me) then it's merely the particular scenario design you should be criticising. And in this game you could change that in about 5 mins in the scenmaker. Takes about 30 secs in scenmaker to cancel the air capability, for example, so the Allies lose all those airstrikes. Or even less time to prime the bridge!!!! Try it then!

Personally, I think this is a great scenario to use - exactly as Bazza says - like a tutorial. Everything small enough to keep track of. But when I first started playing it, long ago, I could not get a win at all. Took me ages to hone it down to letting the AI do more. If I were to run it at my usual interference level - giving orders to Bn, controlling arty directly etc, then it's still a great, challengin scenario. It just so happens that the AI can do a great job unmolested on this one. But that's rare. You can't try those tricks with From the Meuse to the Rhine, for example.

[Phoenix100]

Here's the link, Bazza. You could try what I did there, just to see if it works in .258.

tm.asp?m=3053737&mpage=1&key=Joe&#3053737

[Arjuna]

The messages "stalled and waiting", "stalled and bypassing" an "stalled and replanning" were introduced in the last build. These all relate to cases where the subject of a Move task comes within threat range of an enemy ( 1000m plus unit radius ) and where the subject is a senior HQ (ie. Bde and above) or a Base for any type of Move task or is a support unit or any type of HQ conducting an advance to the Reserve position as part of an attack. If Bypass is allowed they will try to bypass. They may get several attempts at bypassing as sometimes the bypass route may not get them out of threat range. In such cases they will wait till the next attempt. With each attempt they increase the caution factor of the route thus giving a wider berth around known threats. If they can't bypass either because the option is not checked on the order setting or they just can't get a suitable route, then they will replan. This may not help. It depends on the orders they have and the situation around them.

So if you see these messages take a good look at the subject's situation and if necessary change its orders. HQs and support units are not meant to be placed in harms way.

The message "stalled attack" has been in the engine in for quite some time and relates to cases where an attack has failed to make progress. If the stalled force is part of a complex attack then it will bunker down leaving other subAttacks to continue. If it's just part of a basic attack then it will replan.

[Bazza042]

Many thanks, Phoenix and Arjuna: for finding my misplaced message in the first place [:(]

and secondly for the comprehensive explanation and Phoenix's examples

I hadn't realised that if using a move or assault order with a senior (Brigade/Regimental)HQ that I had to allow another 1000 yards, together with its unit radius,
to the nearest enemy unit. As I was moving after the German Day 2 reinforcements came in south of the river, even though they were securely 'bottled up', this clearly
impacted the HQ 'move' and let to the 'stalled' situation. I'll need to get my HQ to move quicker in the future!

This does slightly pose another - non technical - issue.

There have been major changes since the first release of BFTB yet the manual, as far as I am aware, hasn't been updated so messages such as this, although to a degree self explanatory,
can't be referenced. Is there (has there?) been an update to the manual that I have missed? Even an 'addendum', a rewrite being a not inconsiderable task, with information like this would be extremely useful.

I'll now discontinue this post as being incorrectly located so thank you both again for your advice.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Bazza042

Many thanks, Phoenix and Arjuna: for finding my misplaced message in the first place [:(]

and secondly for the comprehensive explanation and Phoenix's examples

I hadn't realised that if using a move or assault order with a senior (Brigade/Regimental)HQ that I had to allow another 1000 yards, together with its unit radius,
to the nearest enemy unit. As I was moving after the German Day 2 reinforcements came in south of the river, even though they were securely 'bottled up', this clearly
impacted the HQ 'move' and let to the 'stalled' situation. I'll need to get my HQ to move quicker in the future!

This does slightly pose another - non technical - issue.

There have been major changes since the first release of BFTB yet the manual, as far as I am aware, hasn't been updated so messages such as this, although to a degree self explanatory,
can't be referenced. Is there (has there?) been an update to the manual that I have missed? Even an 'addendum', a rewrite being a not inconsiderable task, with information like this would be extremely useful.

I'll now discontinue this post as being incorrectly located so thank you both again for your advice.

I agree the manual will need updating, there is a lot that has changed.

This patch is still in the Beta testing stage though, so the best way to see new changes, is to look in the patch change log, that Dave posts above, near the top of the forum.

Once the patch testing is finnished, then maybe someone can start wrok of the manual updates?

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Once the patch testing is finnished, then maybe someone can start wrok of the manual updates?

Sure will someone please identify themselves.[;)]

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

Once the patch testing is finnished, then maybe someone can start wrok of the manual updates?

Sure will someone please identify themselves.[;)]

Well if we all contribute our own little bit, you can just copy and paste it in there.

I volunteer BigDuke66 for a section on ammo, and rate of fire [:D]