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RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW)

 
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RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 3:57:27 PM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

paulderynck you are part of the Yahoo group and made some very good posts there. So go ahead and ask them about this scenario.

Why haven't one of you done so already?


Because of your view on minor countries controlled by Vichy France You cannot explain...

quote:

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.


Using your view this rule can NEVER be put into effect.




all hexes in Vichy France and Corsica are Vichy hexes. all Vichy France land units (all land units that are not territorial)

and the hexes were does land units are.

_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 61
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 6:15:13 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Damn Germans and accepting Vichy France. They should have just conquered them so all these WWII games would not have to worry about all this crap lol. Didn't Hitler understand the impact this decision would have on future generations

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 62
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 6:25:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

paulderynck you are part of the Yahoo group and made some very good posts there. So go ahead and ask them about this scenario.

Why haven't one of you done so already?


Because of your view on minor countries controlled by Vichy France You cannot explain...

quote:

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.


Using your view this rule can NEVER be put into effect.




all hexes in Vichy France and Corsica are Vichy hexes. all Vichy France land units (all land units that are not territorial)

and the hexes were does land units are.


So what are the Vichy French notional units that can be destroyed prior to combat resolution?



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 63
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 7:14:50 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Damn Germans and accepting Vichy France. They should have just conquered them so all these WWII games would not have to worry about all this crap lol. Didn't Hitler understand the impact this decision would have on future generations

I'm certain Hitler believed that rules concerning Vichy France would be crystal clear if written in German.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 64
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 7:40:04 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 3724
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

paulderynck you are part of the Yahoo group and made some very good posts there. So go ahead and ask them about this scenario.

Why haven't one of you done so already?


Because of your view on minor countries controlled by Vichy France You cannot explain...

quote:

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.


Using your view this rule can NEVER be put into effect.




all hexes in Vichy France and Corsica are Vichy hexes. all Vichy France land units (all land units that are not territorial)

and the hexes were does land units are.


So what are the Vichy French notional units that can be destroyed prior to combat resolution?





any hex in Vichy France or Corsica, or with a Vichy France land unit

_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 65
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 9:09:16 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4166
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

paulderynck you are part of the Yahoo group and made some very good posts there. So go ahead and ask them about this scenario.

Why haven't one of you done so already?


Because of your view on minor countries controlled by Vichy France You cannot explain...

quote:

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.


Using your view this rule can NEVER be put into effect.


Sure it can. All it takes is a Vichy French unit sitting in one or more of her colonies, or the first attack (without ground striking or ground supporting) made by units outside of Metropolitan Vichy France on Vichy unit(s) inside of Metropolitan Vichy France. As long as Vichy isn't hostile to the attacker of course, and as long as no other allied units have entered Metropolitan Vichy France previously.

You raise a good question about the Vichy Territorials defecting. As worded in RAW currrently, they don't roll for it, but I will take a question as to design intent back to the RAW8 rules group.

As for the Yahoo group, I don't post questions about rules I'm sure of. Rules there (or anywhere else) are not decided by majority vote. When debate is intense and there are two (or more ) valid positions (doesn't apply here IMO) someone will ask Harry and he'll rule on it. That's how the FAQ got created, essentially.


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 66
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 10:45:56 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

any hex in Vichy France or Corsica, or with a Vichy France land unit



quote:

17.1 Creation
If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France.


Corsica is part of Metropolitan Vichy France.

Invading Metropolitan Vichy France would make Vichy France hostile.

The next step in establishing Vichy France is 17.2 Determine control.


Later whe have the following.

quote:

17.5 Combat with Vichy
If Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun, solely by units controlled by an Allied major power they are not hostile to, they may defect before combat.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.

Subtract 1 from the roll for each Free French or US land unit involved in the combat.

If any unit stays loyal, the combat proceeds against those that remain.


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 4/6/2013 10:51:29 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 67
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/6/2013 10:56:53 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1622
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Sure it can. All it takes is a Vichy French unit sitting in one or more of her colonies, or the first attack (without ground striking or ground supporting) made by units outside of Metropolitan Vichy France on Vichy unit(s) inside of Metropolitan Vichy France. As long as Vichy isn't hostile to the attacker of course, and as long as no other allied units have entered Metropolitan Vichy France previously.

You raise a good question about the Vichy Territorials defecting. As worded in RAW currrently, they don't roll for it, but I will take a question as to design intent back to the RAW8 rules group.

As for the Yahoo group, I don't post questions about rules I'm sure of. Rules there (or anywhere else) are not decided by majority vote. When debate is intense and there are two (or more ) valid positions (doesn't apply here IMO) someone will ask Harry and he'll rule on it. That's how the FAQ got created, essentially.



I checked the FAQ and at this time there is nothing helpful.

If you review 17.5 Combat with Vichy you will note that its whenever Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun. The only condition is if Vichy France becomes hostile.


How to make Vichy France Hostile

1) The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their range, and French controlled land and air units are moved to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex. Alternatively, an Allied major power can destroy every French controlled unit in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is hostile to that major power (see 17.5).


2) Allied major powers at war with the installing major power may declare war on Vichy France. The declaration of war does not make Vichy France hostile to that Allied major power. However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit’s controlling major power.


< Message edited by Extraneous -- 4/6/2013 11:08:44 PM >


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 68
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/7/2013 12:15:11 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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What is your problem? I don't see anything wrong. Paul has given the exact answers on your questions. It simply is as he stated...

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Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 69
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/7/2013 2:01:51 PM   
Extraneous

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Sure it can. All it takes is a Vichy French unit sitting in one or more of her colonies, or the (1) first attack (2)(without ground striking or ground supporting) made by units outside of Metropolitan Vichy France on Vichy unit(s) inside of (3) Metropolitan Vichy France. As long as Vichy isn't hostile to the attacker of course, and as long as no other allied units have entered Metropolitan Vichy France previously.

You raise a good question about the Vichy Territorials defecting. As worded in RAW currrently, they don't roll for it, but I will take a question as to design intent back to the RAW8 rules group.

As for the Yahoo group, I don't post questions about rules I'm sure of. Rules there (or anywhere else) are not decided by majority vote. When debate is intense and there are two (or more ) valid positions (doesn't apply here IMO) someone will ask Harry and he'll rule on it. That's how the FAQ got created, essentially.



I was trying as best I could not to be disrespectful of paulderynck post but it seams to me he has made some misconceptions.

1) First attack - no, it is any ground attack against a non-hostile Vichy unit. After Vichy France is hostile they no longer deffect.

2) Without ground striking or ground supporting - no, ground striking or ground supporting units can be set up but if the unit defects ground striking or ground supporting units stay in place as if they had been used.

3) Vichy unit(s) inside of Metropolitan Vichy France - attacking Metropolitan Vichy France immediately makes Vichy France hostile.



Thank you Paul for the input it is appreciated.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 70
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/7/2013 8:31:38 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 4166
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Sure it can. All it takes is a Vichy French unit sitting in one or more of her colonies, or the (1) first attack (2)(without ground striking or ground supporting) made by units outside of Metropolitan Vichy France on Vichy unit(s) inside of (3) Metropolitan Vichy France. As long as Vichy isn't hostile to the attacker of course, and as long as no other allied units have entered Metropolitan Vichy France previously.

You raise a good question about the Vichy Territorials defecting. As worded in RAW currrently, they don't roll for it, but I will take a question as to design intent back to the RAW8 rules group.

As for the Yahoo group, I don't post questions about rules I'm sure of. Rules there (or anywhere else) are not decided by majority vote. When debate is intense and there are two (or more ) valid positions (doesn't apply here IMO) someone will ask Harry and he'll rule on it. That's how the FAQ got created, essentially.



I was trying as best I could not to be disrespectful of paulderynck post but it seams to me he has made some misconceptions.

1) First attack - no, it is any ground attack against a non-hostile Vichy unit. After Vichy France is hostile they no longer deffect.

2) Without ground striking or ground supporting - no, ground striking or ground supporting units can be set up but if the unit defects ground striking or ground supporting units stay in place as if they had been used.

3) Vichy unit(s) inside of Metropolitan Vichy France - attacking Metropolitan Vichy France immediately makes Vichy France hostile.



Thank you Paul for the input it is appreciated.




Sorry but once again you misunderstand.

Hostility happens when you enter Metropolitan Vichy France (MVF). If you ground struck the Vichy unit on its side of the border before you attacked it, then bingo, Vichy is hostile - so you don't do that. Likewise if you ground support the attack - your planes enter MVF before the attack is resolved, so again Vichy would be hostile before the defection could be rolled.

So get a bunch of FF or US units on the border (but not inside MVF) adjacent to a Vichy unit and attack it. It will likely defect. Also note - nothing mandates that you advance. If the axis is dumb enough to keep putting Vichy units next to its border, then you can keep doing it.

It is entering MVF that makes Vichy hostile, not attacking its units.


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 4/7/2013 8:33:25 PM >


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Paul

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Post #: 71
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/7/2013 10:03:17 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1622
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Sorry but once again you misunderstand.

Hostility happens when you enter Metropolitan Vichy France (MVF). If you ground struck the Vichy unit on its side of the border before you attacked it, then bingo, Vichy is hostile - so you don't do that. Likewise if you ground support the attack - your planes enter MVF before the attack is resolved, so again Vichy would be hostile before the defection could be rolled.

So get a bunch of FF or US units on the border (but not inside MVF) adjacent to a Vichy unit and attack it. It will likely defect. Also note - nothing mandates that you advance. If the axis is dumb enough to keep putting Vichy units next to its border, then you can keep doing it.

It is entering MVF that makes Vichy hostile, not attacking its units.




You are correct and your scenario was an example on the Yahoo site. It was a bad choice of phrasing on my part.

How about we say:

1) First attack - no, it is any ground attack against a non-hostile Vichy unit (including notational units) where Vichy units will check for defection. If Vichy France is hostile they don't check for defection.



On the Yahoo site I believe I read:

If the units don't stop in Metropolitan Vichy France:
Units can fly through Metropolitan Vichy France and not have Vichy go hostile or collapse.
Axis units can rail through Metropolitan Vichy France without causing Vichy collapse.

But then again I read several years worth of Q&A there so dont hold me to it.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 72
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/8/2013 7:55:15 AM   
paulderynck


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It is any entry into Vichy.

Want a funny example?

Too bad, I'll give you one anyway.

In my present FTF WiF game I thought it would be a good idea to do something I've never done before... I built the CW frogmen. Looking for something to do with it, I spotted the Vichy French fleet in Marseilles. (Frogmen are really only useful if you can have Surpise.) So I attacked and then realized that I'd made them hostile to the CW.

Now they are lending BPs to Germany every turn and they are a real pain to get rid of in southern France. All that hassle for one sunk CA and a damaged BB.

Take my advice - never do what I did.



< Message edited by paulderynck -- 4/8/2013 7:56:13 AM >


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Paul

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Post #: 73
RE: Noob question on Notional Units (RaW) - 4/8/2013 11:54:43 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1622
Joined: 6/14/2008
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Your scenario proves this to be wrong.

quote:

On the Yahoo site I believe I read:

If the units don't stop in Metropolitan Vichy France:
Units can fly through Metropolitan Vichy France and not have Vichy go hostile or collapse.
Axis units can rail through Metropolitan Vichy France without causing Vichy collapse.

But then again I read several years worth of Q&A there so dont hold me to it.



I agree with you.

When you entered Marseilles with your frogmen you entered Vichy France and they immediately went hostile.




_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 74
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