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RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 7:36:35 AM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2948
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

I was happy to find in my mail this morning this book

The Defense of Moscow 1941: The Northern Flank
By Jack Radey & Charles Sharp
Pen & Sword Military Publishing Company

Jack Radey might be a familiar name to some of you, he was the designer of one of the best games on the Korsun Pocket

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/13182/korsun-pocket

This is (personal appraisal next) a very nice book, covering in detail the operations of PanzerGruppe 3 on the northern flank of Operation Typhoon, around Kalinin (a extremely dynamic battle which is quite interesting).

The relevant thing to this discussion is that the authors, besides offering a narrative and analysis of operations, it also includes as an Appendix daily orders of PzGruppe 3., as given by Reinhardt himself. This particular passage is quite related to the discussions we're having in this thread:

quote:


XXXI (Motorized) Corps Order #31/41
October 16th, 1941

3. Objectives for 17 October 1941

a) 1st Panzer Division will attack with the mass of the division towards Torzhok while holding a support position at Mednoye. The division will as soon as possible pass the securing of Kalinin to 36th Motorized Division and during its advance provide its own security to the west.

The remainder of the forces in the bridgehead at Staritsa (without 2nd Bn 59th Artillery Regiment) will rejoin the division during the course of 17 October.

b) 36th Motorized Division will take over the defense of Kalinin and move into the northeast part of the city. The division will advance to the west corresponding to the action of 1st Panzer Division against forces along the Kalinin-Torzhok road, relieving the securing forces of 1st Panzer Division at the earliest. Especially, it is important to prevent units from the west from pushing between the Volga and 1st Panzer Division. Details are to be worked out between the divisions directly. The 1st Bn 118th Infantry Regiment in the bridgehead at Staritsa will rejoin the division during 17 October.

<I snip other orders>

d) 6th Panzer Division will give the bulk of its fuel supplies to 114th Rifle Regiment (minus 2nd Bn) and on 17 October move it to Kalinin. With the arrival of this reinforced Kampfgruppe, the Advanced Detachment of 6th Panzer Division will be back under division's control. <I snip other stuff here>

e) 129th Infantry Division will march from the area in and south of Ulyanovskoye through Ashurkovo and reach Kalinin by way of Nesterovo, Grishino, Gnilitsy, Negotino, so that it can take over the defense of Kalinin from 36th Motorized Division by 21.10 0600 so that division is available for further use. A strong Advance Detachment is to be started on the march towards Kalinin right now and upon arrival will come under 36th Motorized Division.

<Snip>

6.) Artillery

a) II Bn/59th Artillery Regiment is relieved from control of 1st Panzer Division at Staritsa and will come under 30th Artillery Command.

b) 3rd Battery/611th Artillery Regiment will return to control of its parent battalion at the same time II/59th Artillery Regiment changes control.

c) 620th Artillery Battalion will remain with 1st Panzer Division for long range fire in direct support as the Corps Command requires.

d) 665th Assault Gun Battery after refueling in Pogoreloye Gorodische will move by way of Ulyanovskoye, Lotoshino and the area near Negotino. Battery commander will report to the Combat HQ of 36th Motorized Division when he arrives. Report to the Corps HQ when the battery arrives in Negotino.


So here we have a fairly experience German CO - at a similar level to that of a Soviet Army - getting quite detailed when it comes to specify routes, artillery units attachments and tweaking force composition down to the Bn level in some cases. Note how it delegates to Division CO's how to achieve their objectives, yet provides quite precise constraints on how those objectives need to be pursued and accomplished.

It's quite easy to imagine that these orders at the Division HQ's generate also quite specific orders mentioning routes, force composition and artillery missions. Comparing this with Vatutin's (Reinhardt opponent) will surely be extremely interesting


Hm...quite interesting, but are you sure this is a panzer group 3 order as given by Reinhardt? I rather think itīs a normal corps level order, as given by the commander of that time (Walter Model) to his corps units. Itīs also indicated in the first line beeing a corps level order:

"XXXXI (Motorized) Corps Order #31/41"

Otherwise it would be rather a Panzer Group 3 order (or rather mission).

So at corps level, giving these sort of detailed orders is quite normal, as also independent army units (beeing temporary corps assets) like in number 6.) Artillery, are organized with the divisions.



< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 3/21/2013 7:54:29 AM >


_____________________________

RockinHarry in the web:

http://www.myspace.com/rockinharryz
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockinharryz
https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 61
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 8:04:56 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


Posts: 3064
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Hm...quite interesting, but are you sure this is a panzer group 3 order as given by Reinhardt? I rather think itīs a normal corps level order, as given by the commander of that time (Walter Model) to his corps units. Itīs also indicated in the first line beeing a corps level order:

"XXXXI (Motorized) Corps Order #31/41"


Nah, I mixed that up. There are also the orders for the whole PzGruppe in the Appendixes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
So at corps level, giving these sort of detailed orders is quite normal, as also independent army units (beeing temporary corps assets) like in number 6.) Artillery, are organized with the divisions.


That's my point regarding the level of intervention which is "normal" or "reasonable" at the scale and size of some of the scenarios in BFTB and HTTR. As I point out in my post, these Corps-level orders obviously will be generating missions at the lower level, which I'm pretty sure had similar features and content (with the same remarks about routes, force composition and artillery assets distribution, but at a smaller scale). And so recursively down the chain of command, all the way down Bn's.

Besides that, the player in Command Ops has to wear many hats, starting from the Corps commander and ending (sometimes, but not too often) to the Bn Commander. The frequency the player gets one particular hat "on", and issues the missions wearing that hat entitles her to, is situation dependent.

For many cases, the friendly AI can further develop players' plans without tweaking. In other cases, it's necessary to "constraint" friendly AI subordinates planning process by either issuing "task modifiers" (such as attitude wrt to losses, asking to bypass enemy positions, etc.) or the player needs to get on the hat of that subordinate and issue the orders herself.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 3/21/2013 8:12:09 AM >

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 62
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 10:33:53 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17788
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online
'A real card" = a real character or an interesting person.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 63
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 12:07:49 PM   
dazkaz15


Posts: 1272
Joined: 12/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

I was happy to find in my mail this morning this book

The Defense of Moscow 1941: The Northern Flank
By Jack Radey & Charles Sharp
Pen & Sword Military Publishing Company

Jack Radey might be a familiar name to some of you, he was the designer of one of the best games on the Korsun Pocket

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/13182/korsun-pocket

This is (personal appraisal next) a very nice book, covering in detail the operations of PanzerGruppe 3 on the northern flank of Operation Typhoon, around Kalinin (a extremely dynamic battle which is quite interesting).

The relevant thing to this discussion is that the authors, besides offering a narrative and analysis of operations, it also includes as an Appendix daily orders of PzGruppe 3., as given by Reinhardt himself. This particular passage is quite related to the discussions we're having in this thread:

quote:


XXXI (Motorized) Corps Order #31/41
October 16th, 1941

3. Objectives for 17 October 1941

a) 1st Panzer Division will attack with the mass of the division towards Torzhok while holding a support position at Mednoye. The division will as soon as possible pass the securing of Kalinin to 36th Motorized Division and during its advance provide its own security to the west.

The remainder of the forces in the bridgehead at Staritsa (without 2nd Bn 59th Artillery Regiment) will rejoin the division during the course of 17 October.

b) 36th Motorized Division will take over the defense of Kalinin and move into the northeast part of the city. The division will advance to the west corresponding to the action of 1st Panzer Division against forces along the Kalinin-Torzhok road, relieving the securing forces of 1st Panzer Division at the earliest. Especially, it is important to prevent units from the west from pushing between the Volga and 1st Panzer Division. Details are to be worked out between the divisions directly. The 1st Bn 118th Infantry Regiment in the bridgehead at Staritsa will rejoin the division during 17 October.

<I snip other orders>

d) 6th Panzer Division will give the bulk of its fuel supplies to 114th Rifle Regiment (minus 2nd Bn) and on 17 October move it to Kalinin. With the arrival of this reinforced Kampfgruppe, the Advanced Detachment of 6th Panzer Division will be back under division's control. <I snip other stuff here>

e) 129th Infantry Division will march from the area in and south of Ulyanovskoye through Ashurkovo and reach Kalinin by way of Nesterovo, Grishino, Gnilitsy, Negotino, so that it can take over the defense of Kalinin from 36th Motorized Division by 21.10 0600 so that division is available for further use. A strong Advance Detachment is to be started on the march towards Kalinin right now and upon arrival will come under 36th Motorized Division.

<Snip>

6.) Artillery

a) II Bn/59th Artillery Regiment is relieved from control of 1st Panzer Division at Staritsa and will come under 30th Artillery Command.

b) 3rd Battery/611th Artillery Regiment will return to control of its parent battalion at the same time II/59th Artillery Regiment changes control.

c) 620th Artillery Battalion will remain with 1st Panzer Division for long range fire in direct support as the Corps Command requires.

d) 665th Assault Gun Battery after refueling in Pogoreloye Gorodische will move by way of Ulyanovskoye, Lotoshino and the area near Negotino. Battery commander will report to the Combat HQ of 36th Motorized Division when he arrives. Report to the Corps HQ when the battery arrives in Negotino.


So here we have a fairly experience German CO - at a similar level to that of a Soviet Army - getting quite detailed when it comes to specify routes, artillery units attachments and tweaking force composition down to the Bn level in some cases. Note how it delegates to Division CO's how to achieve their objectives, yet provides quite precise constraints on how those objectives need to be pursued and accomplished.

It's quite easy to imagine that these orders at the Division HQ's generate also quite specific orders mentioning routes, force composition and artillery missions. Comparing this with Vatutin's (Reinhardt opponent) will surely be extremely interesting


This is very interesting suff, thanks for posting it.

It has given me the idea, for the structure of my AAR for Elsenborn Ridge, when/if I get round to doing it.

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 64
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 12:08:53 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 1924
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline
It's not Aussie, is it? It's used like that in the UK. I use it myself - I said to my daughter only a few days ago - 'you're a real card, for sure....' as she told me to f*** off (she's 6) If I'd thought it was some antipodean pollution I would have bit my tongue off.......:)

Joking....joking....joking.....

Wish I lived in Aussie, actually. I believe all the myths.




< Message edited by phoenix -- 3/21/2013 12:10:52 PM >

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 65
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 12:10:32 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17788
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix
If I'd thought it was some antipodean polution I would have bit my tongue off.......:)

So that explains the accent!



_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 66
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 12:24:59 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2948
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Hm...quite interesting, but are you sure this is a panzer group 3 order as given by Reinhardt? I rather think itīs a normal corps level order, as given by the commander of that time (Walter Model) to his corps units. Itīs also indicated in the first line beeing a corps level order:

"XXXXI (Motorized) Corps Order #31/41"


Nah, I mixed that up. There are also the orders for the whole PzGruppe in the Appendixes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
So at corps level, giving these sort of detailed orders is quite normal, as also independent army units (beeing temporary corps assets) like in number 6.) Artillery, are organized with the divisions.


That's my point regarding the level of intervention which is "normal" or "reasonable" at the scale and size of some of the scenarios in BFTB and HTTR. As I point out in my post, these Corps-level orders obviously will be generating missions at the lower level, which I'm pretty sure had similar features and content (with the same remarks about routes, force composition and artillery assets distribution, but at a smaller scale). And so recursively down the chain of command, all the way down Bn's.

Besides that, the player in Command Ops has to wear many hats, starting from the Corps commander and ending (sometimes, but not too often) to the Bn Commander. The frequency the player gets one particular hat "on", and issues the missions wearing that hat entitles her to, is situation dependent.

For many cases, the friendly AI can further develop players' plans without tweaking. In other cases, it's necessary to "constraint" friendly AI subordinates planning process by either issuing "task modifiers" (such as attitude wrt to losses, asking to bypass enemy positions, etc.) or the player needs to get on the hat of that subordinate and issue the orders herself.


Roger that!

What I find particularly interesting about that corps orders, is that Model ordered the 129th infantry to form an advance detachment, indicating that this division already operated in that way before (itīs the only foot unit in that mot. corps). Those advance detachments were usually formed from the only mobile assets of a normal infantry division, likely parts of the reccon Bn, panzerjager, an Arty Bty and some more infantry made mobile, by taking trucks from the supply trains.

Other messing on small scale obviously is meant to rule security for the bridgehead, that the mobile forces use to resume offensive movements. Supply situation also appears to be less than optimal and 6th Panzer likely is not fully battle worthy anymore.

However, looking forward for making similar considerations, once CO goes east front.

_____________________________

RockinHarry in the web:

http://www.myspace.com/rockinharryz
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockinharryz
https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann

(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 67
RE: Assaulting - 3/21/2013 11:51:27 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


Posts: 3064
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
What I find particularly interesting about that corps orders, is that Model ordered the 129th infantry to form an advance detachment, indicating that this division already operated in that way before (itīs the only foot unit in that mot. corps). Those advance detachments were usually formed from the only mobile assets of a normal infantry division, likely parts of the reccon Bn, panzerjager, an Arty Bty and some more infantry made mobile, by taking trucks from the supply trains.


Yep, that's quite interesting and a challenge to model, I must say. That kind of transport asset sharing within formations - enhancing mobility at the expense of supply distribution in this case - it's something very closely related to the notion of "mounted ops" Dave is planning for the Eastern Front (where we have Red Army infantry hopping onto tanks). It's not yet clear to me which is the best way to get the Command Ops engine to account for tank riders or temporal, ad-hoc motorization.

One easy option is to designed the OOB to have motorized versions of infantry formations (and accordingly de-motorized supply bases), yet that's not very flexible, making challenge to model operations spanning several days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Other messing on small scale obviously is meant to rule security for the bridgehead, that the mobile forces use to resume offensive movements. Supply situation also appears to be less than optimal and 6th Panzer likely is not fully battle worthy anymore.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
However, looking forward for making similar considerations, once CO goes east front.


I find some of the (bigger) German offensive and US counteroffensive scenarios in BFTB to make quite think and act like that (even in the extremely contrived country which is the Ardennes), and same thing for some of the XXX Corps scenarios in HTTR. The difficulties of the Allied position in Nijmegen looks to me quite similar to those of the German army in the battle for Kalinin (enemy forces in three directions, mission is to press forward). Obviously, the strength of the opponent (the Red Army in the case of Kalinin) is quite different of what the German army is made up in Nijmegen.


(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 68
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